TCS Concordia

TC:
1. I wouldn't give a damn even if I made myself look like an utter and complete idiot. Discussing a topic that one doesn't know anything about is the only way to learn. I'm not arguing just for argument's sake, you know.
In that aspect, it is much more foolish to sit there quietly just because you don't know something, than it is to say something which is wrong, but which will give you the opportunity to learn.
2. I can see the point of that. I simply don't agree with it
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LOAF:
The illogicality is not in assuming that someone who's not dead is alive - that of course is quite logical. Actually, I wasn't even talking about that (as I said, you can choose to believe whatever you want). What I was refering to was the Bengal class thing. I'm sorry that I didn't clarify that, because it most definitely needed clarification.

As for the movie, let me explain myself further, before you classify me as one of those movie-hating and generally... well, dumb people. My view, basically, is exactly the same as that of the guy who wrote the Confed Handbook. Like you, I firmly believe that the movie and the games, and the books, and the cartoon, and anything else WC, are all set in the same WC Universe.
However, I also believe that within this universe, there are different continuities (movie + related books, games + related books, and finally, cartoon). They share the same (or very similar) background, but some of the facts are rather different.
For the record, I also enjoyed the movie - it's one of my favouritest SF movies, in fact. And I firmly believe that the movie portrayed all the concepts of the WC universe very well - it's just that the actual facts (as opposed to concepts) were different (also note here, that I use the word "different", rather than "wrong"). That is all.

BTW, the CIC's Background section says that Pilgrim Stars took place on the Tiger Claw, not the Tiger's Claw. And they are two very much different carriers, non?

Finally, if you want me to read the damned books, then by all means, go ahead and mail them to me. No? Didn't think so.
I live in Australia, and there's no way to get them save via the internet - which at this stage I cannot do. I assure you that as soon as I can, I'll get them - all of them. Until then, I'm afraid I'll just have to remain ignorant
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Yeah, whatever, UltimaWingman.

Seeing as how I'm arguing (or debating, I guess) as well, I'll put in my two cents.

Now, LOAF, there's no reason to get nasty and start calling people names and whatnot just because they disagree with you and this Book of LOAF crap TC brought up.

I love the Wing Commander movie. It sits proudly on my shelf with all of my other favorite films. So, I won't use the excuse that "It's different, so it sucks!" like you pointed out so many people do. Rather, I'll say that it's different and you can't, as I stated earlier, fit a square peg in a round hole.

Okay, so we didn't see Knight's flesh turn black and his head explode in the vacuum (I know that doesn't happen, I'm just using an example). So what? We saw the flak hit his Broadsword, we saw his cockpit exploding around him. To me, it certainly didn't seem as if he ejected at all. To say that he survived is silly. The same with Bossman. It's pure conjecture, as if I said Amelia Earheart is still alive because they never found her.

Okay, Bossman and Knight do turn up, obviously, in WC1. So, maybe, they survived, and I still think that's rediculous, but if it's the only possible answer we can come up with... (Well, I come up with one other, better one, but I'll leave it at that)

Yes, I believe the movie fits in with the rest of the Universe, just like all the products (series, games, books) fit in. But do they fit perfectly? Hell, no. And this is evident with the movie. Another example, which I certainly don't want exhausted: I've played WC1. Seems to me that Blair meets Maniac for the first time on the Claw. But the movie has them serving at the Academy together. Come to think of it, so does the animated series. There may be other soruces that state this, too, I'm not sure.

Bottom line: Wing Commander is fiction, nothing else but. If there's gross mistakes in continuity, that's the writers' and the game designers' problems. We can't go trying to make things fit that most definitely do not. Word of advice to all: Let's just leave it be and enjoy it.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited July 07, 2000).]
 
DRALTHI5: I'll need to play WC1 again, it does seem that they don't know each other well. As you pointed out someone has dropped the ball multiple times when it comes to continuity. The guidebook for WC1/2 also had Maniac and Blair (though in that he was named Carl LeFong, I think, and his callsign was Prankster, Joker or something like that) attending the academy together. I can understand some of the early mistakes like that one, but the later conflicts in the game and then the movie are at times atrocious. Still, though my wife would be shocked to hear me say this, it is, in the end, only a game. And it isn't worth it to take it personally and insult each other over. Agree to disagree and leave it at that.
LOAF: Which books are you talking about? I assume the WC movie novelization and Pilgrim Stars? Or are you also including the Confed Handbook? I have to admit I have not read them, but some of my friends who read them, particularly the handbook, told me to steer clear of them because the author relies on the movie (which as a rule my friends and I either dislike or despise) and ignore the history laid out in the games. I always thought Roberts or Origin desperately were in need of a fact checker. They were unable to keep the facts straight that were set out in Claw Marks. The documentation with Armada (if I recall correctly) and then in Victory Streak, reset the Enyo engagement on McAuliffe. I did like the addition of Geoff Tolwyn to the story, but shifting locations like that is just sloppiness on someone's part.
The same goes with the movie. Killing (or at least implying it) off one of the charctaers that plays prominently in the game is lazy. How hard would it be to create another character in place of Bossman? Hell you could even slip it into the continuity by saying that it was the death of this other character who helped inspire Chen Kien to change his callsign from Ripper to Bossman. Perhaps I would be kinder to the movie if I read the books, but the whole Pilgrim thing drives me nuts. It might have been fine in a non-WC movie or in a movie set earlier in the war with a different cast of characters, but it detracted from the Kilrathi-Terran story instead of adding to it, imho. Perhaps I'll try to pick the novels up in a few days, but I dislike offering any kind of encouragemnt to the movie. And, since the third novel is dead, or so I've heard, I hate reading something that is supposed to have an ending, but doesn't. That happened to me with another series based on a series of games I loved (Planetfall and Stationfall) and I'm not eager to go down that path again. I might pick up the handbook, though.

Didn't get through all the responses before I posted the following Sorry for the duplication of effort.

TC said:
Quarto, don't see the dates you mention in Claw Marks. A quote/page number would be nice.

TC
Click to expand...
It's on Page 45. Sort stuck in the back with the instructions on how to play the game. It reads as follows.

Pride of the Fleet
The TCS Tiger's Claw

2642: The Confederation military command, detremining that a ned exists for a heavy space carrier, authorizes design of the Bengal-Class carrier line. Trojan Four Spaceyards wins the assignment to build the new line of carriers.

2644: The newly-launched TCS Tiger's claw, on its shakedown cruise, carrying a minimal spacecrew and an under-experienced commd, finds itself in the path of a surpirse Kilrathi invasion force. The ship's unexpceted presence along the Kilrathi flight plan, clever tactics on part of the command crew and performance above and beyond the call of duty by the spacecrews rout the superior Kilrathi force. Shortly thereafter, Tiger's Claw is given permanent assignment in Vega Sector.

2645: The second Bengal-class space carrier, The Kipling, is launched. Owing to design modifications, the Kipling and all subsequnet Bengals are 10 meters shorter and severla tonnes less massive than the Tiger's Claw, making the Tiger's Claw the biggest space carrier in its class.

There is an additonal entry describing
'Custer's carnival' but it isn't relevant to this discussion.


[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 07, 2000).]
 
You post, I post. You edit, I edit. Ah, just forget about it
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...

[This message has been edited by Hero (edited July 07, 2000).]
 
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Shane: A newbie, but you've got facts right.
Alas, Carl LeFong is someone ELSE, not a name mistake for Maniac...

Yes, LOAF considers ALL WC products to be in the SAME continuity, when in fact, no, the movie and the games do not exist as one and the same. Concider the movie and ALTERNATE UNIVERSE version deal, kind'a like Elseworlds or "What if" stories...plus, you ain't missin' much in Telep's "Pilgrim Stars". He basically turned the Pilrgims into Jedis, minus the lightsabers. That and he had Blair...gettin' with Angel...

Also, the Bossman that was mentioned to be dead WAS Chen Kien, you can see his name on the Rapier that HAD been his...and if they STILL had his Rapier, it's a good bet they know for sure he's dead..unless of course they just cloned him and that's who you meet in WC1. (VERY unlikely. WC4 states that Cloning has been a proverbial "Boogie Man" to science.)

And I believe Quarto said it best. yes, all teh Wc stuff stems fro the same "universe", but the movie and sequel novels, and the games and their novels, don't go together in the same continuity. infact, I'd have to say the Cartoons were a kind of precursor to the movie, so I'll slap those with THAT continuity(Blair saw his father's ghost in Jumpspace...you get the idea...)
 
Cmdr_X: Everything WC is part of the same Universe. There is no alternate Universe crap. If it was an alternate Universe, Confed would be the Terran Empire and they'd be out to conquer the noble Kilrathi Confederation. That's the whole idea of an alternate Universe.
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Oh, and the only thing P. Telep did with the Blair/Angel relationship was start it a helluva lot earlier than we thought. But, perhaps they had a small fling before the Cats jumped the Claw at K'Tithrak Mang. But Blair and Angel "got it on" in WC2.

And the Rapier in the movie did not say Chen Kien on it. It said Vince Chen or Charles Chen or something like that.

Basically, as I was trying to state in my response to LOAF, is that everything WC is part of the same Universe, but there are definite mistakes in continuity. There. End of story.

Shane: I don't think anyone's insulting one another... Well, Quarto and LOAF are kind of trading punches.
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I agree with you on pretty much everything else you said, though.

There was really no need to kill Bossman and Knight like that, I again agree with you on that. It could have been R.A. Skinner's death that effected Angel so (Angel's closeness to him would be a little iffy, but it's better than sticking Bossman in that awkward position). These annoying gaps in continuity only start stupid debates like this, which prove nothing in the end.

Then why the hell am I still talking? I dunno.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
 
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Cmdr_X said:
Shane: A newbie, but you've got facts right.
Alas, Carl LeFong is someone ELSE, not a name mistake for Maniac...
Click to expand...

Actually I think that Carl LaFong was the name they gave to Blair not Maniac. It was in the intro to the WC1/WC2 guide, which was supposedly written by him. I remember the name because it is the same as the institute for gravitational studies in my favortie short film "Gravity."
 
Just a little trivia note. Maniac's original callsign was supposed to be Joker, and Hunter was supposed to be Dart. The evidence of this is in the game itself, where you see those callsigns inscribed on their helmets instead of the proper ones. Presumably, this was changed sometime during production, but the artists were too lazy/didn't have time to change the graphics.

...But I'm very, very glad they decided to change the callsigns
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. Joker and Dart... nah.
 
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Quarto: I wondered why Maniac's helmet said Joker on it. That's still not changed on my PCGamer KS WC1. Go figure.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
 
LaFong was the name given to Blair by the WC1/2 official guide, since Blair had no name back then. As a particularly old man I can recall how incredibly pissed we all were when Origin decided to replace our name with 'Blair' in WC3...
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His callsign was Prankster.

I must agree with Dralthi5 regarding the same universe, definate mistakes thing. But as an addendum, it's a lot of fun to fix these mistakes. There's nothing gained by going "it sucks because it's different!"... at least, not after all this time.

As for Cmdr_X, I suggest he not go around calling people newbies... he is, afterall, the one person who never, ever learns
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From moronic rants about thirty mile ships to actually copying text from the WC3 novel and claiming he wrote it, Cmdr_X is always good for a laugh. The "VERY unlikely." bit brought a smile to my face.

To Shane, some advice that will work in all aspects of life. Don't take anybody's word for anything. Never, ever don't read a book because somebody hates it. You can't dispise the movie if you don't know anything about it.

Anyway, I agree with all the 'what if' and 'it'd be better if' isms going on... but it just didn't happen, we have to deal with what did happen.

Oh, and some mean words to Dralthi5... how could I be calling people names for disagreeing with what TC posted, seeing as that he posted *after* me
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? The board goes backwards now, remember
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? Further, don't dis the book or I'll kill you -- although the rest of it is designed to entertain, the laws are kind of dumb...)

As for your Amelia Earheart example -- it doesn't fit the situation. Imagine if they never found her plane, but that she was still known to be alive and well today. We don't know what happened to her then, but we do know that she's still alive now. A mystery remains, but it's not the same situation.

(Also, it's kind of sad that the blind guy has to point this out, but Knight's flesh was *already* black...
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).

As for Quarto, I'm sure there are lots of continuities... but I'm not a fan of those, I'm a WC fan
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And finally, the Tiger's Claw and the Tiger Claw are the same damn ship... don't be silly.

If you want the 'damned books', I will gladly purchase them and ship them to you at cost.



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Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

LOAF's Merry Guild

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG
 
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Eh, "mean" words accepted.
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And I guess you misunderstood what I meant about TC's post. Oh, well. I just meant to say that I don't give a damn about the Book of LOAF. Since it is named after you, I supposed logically that you must adhere to its "rules", some of which I do not agree with. No offense
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Also, I'm well aware how to read the CZ (from bottom to top).

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!



[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited July 08, 2000).]
 
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Hehe. I think I like Blair better... but then, I've never even heard of LaFong
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. BTW, wasn't it Freedom Flight where Blair was first mentioned by name? Ah, but I guess there was no way for the reader to tell that this was Bluehair, since he only appeared during one brief card game scene.

All right. I officially surrender, LOAF
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. From now on, I'll try and help fix the mistakes instead of arguing about things belonging to different timelines. In the end, it comes down to what you just said - there are definitely mistakes out there, but it's a lot more fun to fix them than to dismiss whole products. I'm sorry I took so long to realise this
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Also, if you really were serious when you said that you'd be willing to buy the books for me... that would be great. At this stage, I'm willing to go for any arrangement, since I've just about given up hope on ever seeing them
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. Of course, the lack of cash on my part means that I wouldn't be able to pay for all of them at once, so this would have to be done on a book-by-book basis.

Oh, that reminds me. Whatever happened to those WCP maps that you said you had? Do you still have them? Because if you do, I'd be quite happy to send you a picture tube so I could get one of 'em.
 
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I'm more than willing to send books to you -- or anyone, for that matter (ditto for the posters... I still have some left). Contact me via e-mail (loaf@mail.utexas.edu) and we'll figure something out.

As for Blair in Freedom Flight... twas one of the spectacular coincidences that WC is rife with -- purely accidental that a background character in FF happened to have the same name as Bluehair would later be given.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
The Book of LOAF isn't actually rules, it's 20,000 things I've said, in book form.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, I see.

Quarto: Again I say, I did indeed buy End Run, but I'm not sure if I can send it. My parents are definitely frowning on this. Sorry. But I'll see what I can do. If someone, however, was willing to send it to you without the restrictions of parents, then bully for you.


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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited July 09, 2000).]
 
How curious
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. Well, that's perfectly all right - if you can't send it, you can't send it. I guess at your age, you're still obliged to listen to your parents
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