TCS Concordia
- Thread starter WildWeasel
- Start date
LOAF: That's treading dangerous grounds. Despite what many of us want to believe, the movie carries quite a few discrepancies with the games.
Claw Marks clearly state that the first Bengal launched in 2644, not a Bengal Mrk. II or something like that, but a Bengal. I think WC1 has more legitimacy than some book based on a flimsy movie (I hate to say it) that everyone except WC fans have already forgotten about.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
Claw Marks clearly state that the first Bengal launched in 2644, not a Bengal Mrk. II or something like that, but a Bengal. I think WC1 has more legitimacy than some book based on a flimsy movie (I hate to say it) that everyone except WC fans have already forgotten about.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
Where in the Gold Edition manual would you find this information? If not there, where else?
[This message has been edited by WildWeasel (edited July 05, 2000).]
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Now, now, LOAF doesn't tread on dangerous grounds... I believe Quarto's statement was that in Wing Commander classes don't have ships they are named after. Put aside the fact that this makes no sense for a minute -- afterall, what's the point of giving them an utterly meaningless name? -- but we were talking about Wing Commander -- not 'in Claw Marks' or 'in Wing Commander 1'. To the best of my knowledge the Wing Commander movie -- even if by virtue of its title alone -- counts as Wing Commander.
This isn't a continuity problem. It makes perfect sense. It's only a continuity problem if you have a problem with the movie. Lose it.
(Re: WildWeasel -- the mention of the TCS Hades can be found in the Secret Ops fiction at secretops.com).
This isn't a continuity problem. It makes perfect sense. It's only a continuity problem if you have a problem with the movie. Lose it.
(Re: WildWeasel -- the mention of the TCS Hades can be found in the Secret Ops fiction at secretops.com).
WildWeasel
Spaceman
Thank you.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Grr, I'm being misquoted again. The really shameful thing is that my post is on the same page. The least you could've done, LOAF, is to scroll down there to check.
What I said was that there is no hard rule dictating the relationship between ship names and class names. I neither confirmed nor refuted the fact that the first ship is named after its class - what I did refute is the fact that the first ship is always named after its class.
I believe that Claw Marks also mentions ('40 or '42, I think) that the Bengal class was completely new - in fact, it was a completely new ship class: the heavy strike carrier. Certainly, no indications are given that it's a redesign of an existing class.
Therefore, whatever Bengals the Movie mentions are a different class altogether, which has been given the same name purely to confuse us.
What I said was that there is no hard rule dictating the relationship between ship names and class names. I neither confirmed nor refuted the fact that the first ship is named after its class - what I did refute is the fact that the first ship is always named after its class.
I believe that Claw Marks also mentions ('40 or '42, I think) that the Bengal class was completely new - in fact, it was a completely new ship class: the heavy strike carrier. Certainly, no indications are given that it's a redesign of an existing class.
Therefore, whatever Bengals the Movie mentions are a different class altogether, which has been given the same name purely to confuse us.
My mistake... Of course, Bandit LOAF would never, ever tread dangerous grounds. Not in relation to Wing Commander, that is.
I don't have a problem with the movie, for the record, it's one of my favorites. Anyway, why's it so hard to see that the movie might be kind of out of place? I mean, do you simply accept that Bossman died twice?
But I don't want to get into this same old argument again, so I'll back down.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
I don't have a problem with the movie, for the record, it's one of my favorites. Anyway, why's it so hard to see that the movie might be kind of out of place? I mean, do you simply accept that Bossman died twice?
But I don't want to get into this same old argument again, so I'll back down.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
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TC
SubCrid
Quarto, don't see the dates you mention in Claw Marks. A quote/page number would be nice.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
<Looks down> I can't give you a quote/page number. I'm working from memory here. All I know is that there's a few paragraphs in there about the history of the 'Claw and of the Bengal class in general. They're not at the end though - they're all over the place throughout the manual (in little grey boxes?).
Just make sure you're looking at the original Claw Marks - because they left these bits out of the KSaga manual.
Just make sure you're looking at the original Claw Marks - because they left these bits out of the KSaga manual.
Don't forget about Knight.
And I think what Quarto means is this (Dralthi5 already mentioned it):" 2642: The Confederation military command, determining that a need exists for a heavy space carrier, authorizes design of Bengal-class carrier line. Trojan Four Spaceyards wins the assignment to build the new line of carriers " - Original Claw Marks, P. 45
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
As much as I think they're needed, this post will include no expletives about Quarto and will instead be entirely logical.
We know that the Bengal carriers in the Confederation Handbook (the smaller, 2619 variant) are related to the later, 700 meter 2644 variant because the article is in relation to the Tiger's Claw. Since we know that the version authorized in 2642 is larger it is reasonable to believe that it is an upgrade of the existing design -- this is supported by the fact that the first of the new ships was the TCS Tiger's Claw and not the TCS Bengal. We can further note that this is reasonable because the second 'newer' ship was 690 meters long and still bore the Bengal designation.
As for Bossman and Knight, I don't see the problem -- since we know that they're alive after the movie, the only possible thing to believe is that they did not actually die in the movie. I can't imagine having a mind that didn't immediately think this. (Further, if 60,000 people can whine without proof that Blair is still alive, how can we not believe with considerable proof that two characters who are clearly alive did not die?)
We know that the Bengal carriers in the Confederation Handbook (the smaller, 2619 variant) are related to the later, 700 meter 2644 variant because the article is in relation to the Tiger's Claw. Since we know that the version authorized in 2642 is larger it is reasonable to believe that it is an upgrade of the existing design -- this is supported by the fact that the first of the new ships was the TCS Tiger's Claw and not the TCS Bengal. We can further note that this is reasonable because the second 'newer' ship was 690 meters long and still bore the Bengal designation.
As for Bossman and Knight, I don't see the problem -- since we know that they're alive after the movie, the only possible thing to believe is that they did not actually die in the movie. I can't imagine having a mind that didn't immediately think this. (Further, if 60,000 people can whine without proof that Blair is still alive, how can we not believe with considerable proof that two characters who are clearly alive did not die?)
But that's just silly, LOAF. We saw Knight die. So he, uh, magically comes back to life, is that right? You can't try to fit a square peg into a round hole all the time.
I still don't buy the Bengal thing, but okay. You know a helluva lot more about WC than I do.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited July 06, 2000).]
I still don't buy the Bengal thing, but okay. You know a helluva lot more about WC than I do.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited July 06, 2000).]
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Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
We saw him die? We saw his ship blow up... we're never even told that he's died. How many other people have escaped the destruction of their figher? Dozens!
Yes LOAf, we saw him die in the movie...Did he show up again at the end or in PILRGIM STARS? No...that and the fact he DID NOT EJECT. Although, it COULD have been some other guy callsigned Knight...god knows plenty of Pilots have the same handle as someone else(Look at Primate from WC3. Ther ewere like, three of him in the same place at the same time...)
But Bossman...there's no way he survived...if he had, either he would have been found, or the Kats in the movie would have ripped him apart. That and the fact that your SACRED Terran Confederation Handbook(which, btw, IGNORED half the stuff already estabilished by the games for PRE-WC1 era info) SAYS for a fact he's dead by WCM.
BTW, Hi, I'm back...
But Bossman...there's no way he survived...if he had, either he would have been found, or the Kats in the movie would have ripped him apart. That and the fact that your SACRED Terran Confederation Handbook(which, btw, IGNORED half the stuff already estabilished by the games for PRE-WC1 era info) SAYS for a fact he's dead by WCM.
BTW, Hi, I'm back...
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Oh, silly me, I completely forgot, not appearing in Pilgrim Stars means that yuo're dead. I should have known this because whenever they bring a patient to the hospital they check to see whether or not he was in Pilgrim Stars before performing any treatments. Oh, sweet, sweet sarcasm.
Let's go through a simple thought process once more, since this conversation seems to have inhereted a member of the rapidly depleting clueless caste.
Some facts-
- Movie says that Bossman is dead.
- Movie takes place before WC1.
- Bossman is alive in WC1.
Now, we can draw two possible conclusions from this...
1) TEH MOVI3 SUCK0RS AND SI BAD B-CUZ IT NOT SAME!!!!!, repeat over and over for a year.
2) Bossman does not die in the movie.
I choose two.
Now, we don't know *how* he's still alive, so we have to draw our own conclusions. My personal theory is that he was captured by the Kilrathi and reported dead to his family and friends -- a Confederation practice Forstchen makes use of multiple times in his novels.
But we don't know what happened. We just know that he's not dead. Try to come up with a better way, it's more fun than crying.
Let's go through a simple thought process once more, since this conversation seems to have inhereted a member of the rapidly depleting clueless caste.
Some facts-
- Movie says that Bossman is dead.
- Movie takes place before WC1.
- Bossman is alive in WC1.
Now, we can draw two possible conclusions from this...
1) TEH MOVI3 SUCK0RS AND SI BAD B-CUZ IT NOT SAME!!!!!, repeat over and over for a year.
2) Bossman does not die in the movie.
I choose two.
Now, we don't know *how* he's still alive, so we have to draw our own conclusions. My personal theory is that he was captured by the Kilrathi and reported dead to his family and friends -- a Confederation practice Forstchen makes use of multiple times in his novels.
But we don't know what happened. We just know that he's not dead. Try to come up with a better way, it's more fun than crying.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Well, if LOAF wishes to believe fairy tales about characters mysteriously coming back to life for no logical reason, that's his problem.
All I can say is that you've got some very... interesting... ideas about logic, LOAF.
Personally, I just don't understand you. Why do you insist on reconciling the Movie with the games, when they're so obviously different? Hell, they even have the War starting at different times.
Is it really worth it? Pray tell, how will the Movie be worse off if you were to admit that it's not a part of the game continuity?
Oh yes, and one other thing:
Pilgrim Stars 2654.079 - 2654.130
Wing Commander 2654.110 - 2654.325
Hmm... I don't know anything whatsoever about Pilgrim Stars, but presumably, Blair takes part in it. Wow, those Pilgrims are just incredible - they can be in two places at once.
All I can say is that you've got some very... interesting... ideas about logic, LOAF.
Personally, I just don't understand you. Why do you insist on reconciling the Movie with the games, when they're so obviously different? Hell, they even have the War starting at different times.
Is it really worth it? Pray tell, how will the Movie be worse off if you were to admit that it's not a part of the game continuity?
Oh yes, and one other thing:
Pilgrim Stars 2654.079 - 2654.130
Wing Commander 2654.110 - 2654.325
Hmm... I don't know anything whatsoever about Pilgrim Stars, but presumably, Blair takes part in it. Wow, those Pilgrims are just incredible - they can be in two places at once.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Problem? Ptth, that's probably a compliment from the 'I HATE BEAR FOR NO REASON!!!!' guy.
If it's illogical to assume that someone isn't dead because they're alive, then it's probably time to ship me home to mate.
Anyway, since you asked so nicely (there's that darned sarcasm again!), I will explain why I feel the way I do about the games and the movie...
I believe that you can divide WC into whatever you want -- you can claim that there's seprate timeline's for the games, the books, for individual games, for the movie, for whatever. People do this. However, each requires each other. The TV series is nothing without the background provided by the games. The movie is nothing without the background provided by the novels -- and so forth, and so on. Thus, while you can have a 'game only' universe, you cannot have a 'movie only' universe -- the movie requires everything done before it. Unlike most people -- most of whom I firmly believe use the 'seprate continuity' thing as an excuse to hate the movie -- I enjoyed the movie, and as thus when I talk about Wing Commander I talk about the entire universe, from WC1 to the movie. What would be the point of the movie, were it not set in my favorite universe?
I note, however, for clarity's sake, that Pilgrim Stars and Wing Commander 1 do, indeed, take place during the same time... during Blair's service onboard the Tiger's claw in the Vega Sector.
(And I add one final READ THE DAMN BOOKS...)
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Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)
The Wing Commander CIC
LOAF's Merry Guild
"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG
If it's illogical to assume that someone isn't dead because they're alive, then it's probably time to ship me home to mate.
Anyway, since you asked so nicely (there's that darned sarcasm again!), I will explain why I feel the way I do about the games and the movie...
I believe that you can divide WC into whatever you want -- you can claim that there's seprate timeline's for the games, the books, for individual games, for the movie, for whatever. People do this. However, each requires each other. The TV series is nothing without the background provided by the games. The movie is nothing without the background provided by the novels -- and so forth, and so on. Thus, while you can have a 'game only' universe, you cannot have a 'movie only' universe -- the movie requires everything done before it. Unlike most people -- most of whom I firmly believe use the 'seprate continuity' thing as an excuse to hate the movie -- I enjoyed the movie, and as thus when I talk about Wing Commander I talk about the entire universe, from WC1 to the movie. What would be the point of the movie, were it not set in my favorite universe?
I note, however, for clarity's sake, that Pilgrim Stars and Wing Commander 1 do, indeed, take place during the same time... during Blair's service onboard the Tiger's claw in the Vega Sector.
(And I add one final READ THE DAMN BOOKS...)
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Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)
The Wing Commander CIC
LOAF's Merry Guild
"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG
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TC
SubCrid
1) If you admit that you don't know anything about a subject then you really shouldn't talk about it. If you aren't knowledgable about a point you bring up you'll end up looking stupid every time.
2) LOAF, and many other's outlook can be summed up quite easily in the Second Law of LOAF
Our job as guardians of Wing Commander is not to create the universe -- here are those much better suited to that task. Rather, our job is to fix (using their own tools) where they may have gone astray. - The Second Law of LOAF from The Book of LOAF
And that, my friends, is all I have to say about that.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
2) LOAF, and many other's outlook can be summed up quite easily in the Second Law of LOAF
Our job as guardians of Wing Commander is not to create the universe -- here are those much better suited to that task. Rather, our job is to fix (using their own tools) where they may have gone astray. - The Second Law of LOAF from The Book of LOAF
And that, my friends, is all I have to say about that.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.