Is the game still in development?

klauss

Spaceman
Yes... he's a major proponent of realism. That and WC does create some trouble. I'll see what I can do. If that fails, chuck is not the only one working on it.

Oh... and you can link a post in VS forums: just take a look at the tiny page that's right to the left of the post date... that's linked to the post. Right-click and grab the target's address, and you can add that address to an URL BB-code.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
See, even here you're assuming instead of knowing - and that's a huge problem when you're trying to attribute actions in order to support your belief to other people.

The reason Wing Commander II reuses no models from Wing Commander I is because the former used an Amiga rendering tool that was completely incompatible (in 1991, anyway) with 3DS. Origin introduced 3DS and trained artists in-house to do ships for Wing 2 (the previous Amiga renderings were contracted out).

I think we may have a misunderstanding. I meant models as in F-44A, F-44G etc. not in game models by the programers. And in regards to assuming without knowing, yes, I am, as it is the way it makes sense to me, and i am open to suggestions stating otherwise. I promise I won't flip out, cross my heart :D
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Yes... he's a major proponent of realism. That and WC does create some trouble. I'll see what I can do. If that fails, chuck is not the only one working on it.

I don't think insisting that the giant space cats not wear clothing has anything to do with realism, though.

Realism can be a very measured concept - as in, this is what a spaceship would really look like with this amount of light, this is what it would need in terms of an engine to move this way and so forth. And yes, that's completely counter to Wing Commander's "reality".

What Chuck is using it here as is a crutch - here's my point of view, and I'm right because it's "realistic". If anything, it might be termed reasonablism -- which is not to imply that it's remotely reasonable.

As someone of you said, wcu is still really early in development. hey, the guys have to fight that the game doesn't crash all the time. They don't have the time to worry about single ships or controversial plots. I'm sure as soon as the game is far enough the will deal with those issues because people will demand it. And then they will ask you if they don't know how to deal with a thing. Perhaps you shoudn't take it personal that they are not coming every moment to ask you something and wait until they really need your knowledge.
AFAI, WCU is at the moment at a state where you wonder how to get something to eat. They don't need somebody who tells them how to hold a fork.

I understand that you see yourself as the keeper of truth. But in 0.2.0 WCU was unplayable slow, in 0.2.2 and 0.2.1 the game crashed after evry second jump... time for truth has yet to come...

That's not a defense at all, though. Maybe it'll get better if we leave it alone and make sure not to say anything critical? What the heck kind of philosophy is that?

Lets be honest - we *made* that mistake already... with the Privateer Remake. We left it alone because they insisted on this exact same 'logic' -- and then when we'd realized how poorly done it was, it was 'already done, no room for major changes now'. The erswhile professional game designers got their moment in the news and disappeared -- it's taken Cordell and company a long time to even start to rectify all the mistakes.

I think we may have a misunderstanding. I meant models as in F-44A, F-44G etc. not in game models by the programers. And in regards to assuming without knowing, yes, I am, as it is the way it makes sense to me, and i am open to suggestions stating otherwise. I promise I won't flip out, cross my heart

Well, you were talking about the redesign of the artwork - which was because they didn't have the original model. The fiction about it being the 'G' model instead of the 'A' was written to accomodate the changes, not the other way around.
 

klauss

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
Lets be honest - we *made* that mistake already... with the Privateer Remake. We left it alone because they insisted on this exact same 'logic' -- and then when we'd realized how poorly done it was, it was 'already done, no room for major changes now'. The erswhile professional game designers got their moment in the news and disappeared -- it's taken Cordell and company a long time to even start to rectify all the mistakes.
You mean things like autotracking and turret AI?
I really don't think that deserves the tag of "gone wrong". If you tried PR1.2, you will notice that it's on par with GG on the big things. Detail-wise, yes, GG has better polish. But I guess it's because with PR, solutions are uncertain sometimes, and take longer. With GG, it's an easy decision: which is closer to the original? That one goes.
 

Master Wooky

Spaceman
I don't see any solution here. The seperation of the remake and WCU has attracted a lot of people to the remake and WCU who are not so close to WC as you guys are. They are now part of the community of those two games and they have a right to say their opinion. And if you guys come and say this is right and this is wrong and we are the only ones allowed to judge, those people will feel pissed of... And the more people dislike the wcnews community the farer WCU will develop away from what you guys call WC. This can be not in your interrest bacause some day, the wcu people who had never played a wc game in their lifes befor will come to your forum and mess (in your eyes) stuff up. And, in the end if your community will stand this undamaged will depend on how succesfull wcu will be. Perhaps you should discuss the canon stuff on a more private level, so that the wcu devs can explain it to their folks and prevent resentments this way. perhaps this would help to keep wcu closer or close to the canon...
 
In reards to that fiction, isn't that assuming what the developers wanted without knowing? I am just building on that fiction, with my own thoughts.

Also, IMO privateer remake is a great game, one that I thouroghly enjoy. And I am not alone in that sentiment, so, your opinion notwithstanding, ignoring seemed to work out ok. I also thouroghly enjoyed the more canon strict Gemini Gold, which was born out of your ignoring it, so I fail to see the problem.
 

Halman

PSY-YI-YI
klauss said:
@Halman:

I'm not talking about redesigning the ship. Only extrapolating its full detailed design, and remodelling it. Basic design, shape for instance, should stay the same.
Unless you're opposed to that as well, and the only acceptable form of acceptable beautifying is retexturing it just as standoff did (which, BTW, I see the pattern - yes, it was on my plans as well, but IMO it's not enough... those models still seem outdated for a modern game).

I don't know if this is official, but I'd like to see WCU spawn modern WC games. As in completely modernized, even in looks, while following WC canon as closely as possible. That must be possible.

Yeah, I guess I'll clarify.

I'm against modifying the model. And especially against adding stuff to them.
But a texture? Thats a just a paint job. (other than the bump mapping stuff)
 

Chicken

Spaceman
Master Wooky said:
I don't see any solution here. The seperation of the remake and WCU has attracted a lot of people to the remake and WCU who are not so close to WC as you guys are. They are now part of the community of those two games and they have a right to say their opinion. And if you guys come and say this is right and this is wrong and we are the only ones allowed to judge, those people will feel pissed of... And the more people dislike the wcnews community the farer WCU will develop away from what you guys call WC. This can be not in your interrest bacause some day, the wcu people who had never played a wc game in their lifes befor will come to your forum and mess (in your eyes) stuff up. And, in the end if your community will stand this undamaged will depend on how succesfull wcu will be. Perhaps you should discuss the canon stuff on a more private level, so that the wcu devs can explain it to their folks and prevent resentments this way. perhaps this would help to keep wcu closer or close to the canon...

Although noble, I felt it necessary to point out that WCU is best described as 'stapled together' I lost my interest in the enire thing when spiritplumber showed a lack of cohesiveness in builidng a professional team. While I may not have the experience to say so, I think folks in the Standoff, WC Saga, Flight Commander and Gemini Gold fan games had success not only becuase of hard work, but because of good planning and team management. I told spiritplumber that having an organized team is key to success...

And now look at WCU. Where'd the organization go?

It hasn't really gone anywhere, it keeps going on in circle, and could use quite a bit of ass kicking so things go faster.

Essentially I'm saying that WCU is ragtag band, not even trained militia and real soldiers - other teams have done this, becoming a real 'army, but WCU hasn't. It's stuck in the same rut, going through the same cycle over and over again. That means you guy need to knock heads together, boot worthless members and grow a real spine. If WCU showed some real gumption, then I'd bet we'd see a kickass "Universe" mod.

Then I think the community here would have more to respect of WCU.
 

John Cordell

Spaceman
klauss said:
Detail-wise, yes, GG has better polish. But I guess it's because with PR, solutions are uncertain sometimes, and take longer. With GG, it's an easy decision: which is closer to the original? That one goes.
My time spend on the Privateer Remake project as QA guy and team member - it was a fight about every little decision that would have made the game more like Privateer. I still remember the discussion with Mamiyaotaru about the Radar colors. I wanted them changed to the Wing Commander Privateer standard and he just said why? In the end i think he changed them in the Remake but not for friendly units. I asked him why he doesn't change them from green to blue and the answer was "I like green." And that's a very simple but perfect example what's pretty much the same with all decisions concerning the project.

There was the possibility to go on and fight about every little (logical) decision and become crazy (and even then i would have no idea if it will really materialize in a future version) or start over with what we had for a more pleasant ending. That was Privateer Gemini Gold 1.0 which still needs alot of work but at least heads to the right direction. I know many changes that i would have fought for years to get them into PR will find with PGG their way into WCU and PR 1.x without even being mentioned and without any heated discussion about given facts...

The wcu vs forum is pretty much the same but 200% much more worse. Many people don't even know Wing Commander but want to decide about stuff and discuss it until the other side is too tired to answer. I love the idea of WCU but i wouldn't survive the permanent fights. It's a very destructive atmosphere over there, that's why i keep my mouth shut.

I remember a fight about the realism of kps for the speed of ships (uii yeah that is really important like hell), they wanted to change it to mps or something. At the end they left kps but increased the planet sizes then released a "new version" and realized that now all ships are crashing into the planets...
No self control, no control at all that's what wcu is, a bunch of people throwing stuff together:
1. Which they like (is coooool)
2. Which were somehow in a Wing Commander game
3. Which 11 year old kids are requesting for fun, sorry ;)

Spiritplumber is pretty much the queen of the mess, not that i don't get around with her but it's just another simple fact :) To solve the whole problem they would need a person who leads them, who's familiar with Wing Commander and decides but they don't want a leader because they all want to lead but where does it lead them? 90% will die on a heart attack sooner or later and the remaining people will kill themselves when they meet (someday). Maybe one will survive and release WCU 0.5 - still not playable but cool! at least for the one who survived it.

However there are also a few very nice wcu/vs people i stay in private contact with which are contributing to PGG and can discuss something without taking everything personal and freak out. It works and it's fun - no frustration and good progress :)

Now what do we learn from these few lines?
1. Don't take my opinion too serious, we are all getting along with each other don't we?
2. Something must change for the WCU people but they have to do it alone, there's no god that will speak to them.
3. Do not listen to people who just spam to get attention listen to people who are familiar with Wing Commander maybe more familiar than you.

What shouldn't you (wcu people) do now?
1. Start an unimportant fight about my post.
2. Shoot yourself.

And what should you (wcu people) do?
1. Sleep a night over this and think about your future.
2. Take valerian first :)
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
I'm not sure why Spiritplumber thinks that registering a new account is some kind of clever victory. Oh, gee, he started a second e-mail account? Well, I guess we're beaten.

Your project needs to be a little bit (read: a lot) less interested in teenage antics and a lot more interested in doing a passable job.
 

Eder

Mr. Standoff
PopsiclePete said:
You should see the Concordia-class in Standoff: even if WC3/4 visual style was strikingly different from WC1/2, it blends beautifully with the rest of the ships. (too bad I don't have a clear screenshot at hand besides this one :( )
ladylex.jpg
Well, we're not really using that model anymore. ;)
 

MKruer

Rear Admiral
Now I know with I hate forums.

Anyway on WCU’s behalf, sense art work in is a major issue for many, WCU is recourse that’s perpetually in motion. There are no stable models, and although I may disagree with it myself, most of the models are just thrown in there as something to use not something to keep.

Oh and the openness of WCU allows for model replacement almost instantly. So if suddenly we got a shitload of good models it would be a matter days that all the ships could be replaced and we would have much better graphics.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
MKruer said:
Anyway on WCU’s behalf, sense art work in is a major issue for many, WCU is recourse that’s perpetually in motion. There are no stable models, and although I may disagree with it myself, most of the models are just thrown in there as something to use not something to keep.

Oh and the openness of WCU allows for model replacement almost instantly. So if suddenly we got a shitload of good models it would be a matter days that all the ships could be replaced and we would have much better graphics.

The problem comes when you don't have any prospects for getting good models and people grow defensive of the crappy temporary ones that turn into permanent ones. All the quick-modding-potential in the world doesn't fix those two big issues.
 

PopsiclePete

Mission programmer
Eder said:
Well, we're not really using that model anymore. ;)
Yeah, but I was I job and couldn't snap a pic of the lastest model in action :p Still it gave a vague idea of what I was talking about...
 

MKruer

Rear Admiral
ChrisReid said:
The problem comes when you don't have any prospects for getting good models and people grow defensive of the crappy temporary ones that turn into permanent ones. All the quick-modding-potential in the world doesn't fix those two big issues.

This is true, but you can also say that the reason why we cant get good models is because most of the models are so protective of their models, that the only way that they will allow anyone to use them if another person known good modeler is doing it. So it almost a catch 22. You need good models to get good models, and to Brad M’s, Howard D. and a few others credit, have helped on that front., but not enough to swing any major improvments.

I think the other issue is also the style of the textures for a model in general. A lot of the good models are one shot wonder. i.e. they are good in there own right, but when you start comparing them to other models even if high quality, the styles just don’t match making both of them look out of place.

I was trying to resolve this by creating trusts within WCU so any model that was submitted as screened for consistency before implementation prior to being added. Unfortunately this has been unsuccessfully because the scripter’s are so desperate for any models that they just grab the first thing they see, which I agree is mostly utter crap.

This still does not even bring into account what style to use. I was looking for a hybrid between WC1/2 and WCP. I have created this site for potential modelers to use as a guide when making textures. Weather anyone uses it is another question.
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/wiki/MOD:WCU:Design_and_Standardization
 

mat_yarrow

Spaceman
I think much of the confusion arose over what WC:U is, and isn't.
WC:U FAQ on sourceforge.net

For me, WC:U is more of a framework/resource for Wing Commander mods based on Vega Strike.
The development releases use the missions and campaigns from Privateer Remake mostly as a means of debugging/testing added features(ex. hidden cargo compartments, wingmen formations, shaped shields, etc.) that may eventually find their way into other mods(ex.Privateer: Part 3 , piArmada)

WC:U may never have a final form. As Vega Strike continually evolves(SQL DB format, OGRE 3D rendering engine, network/multiplayer, first-person option(?)), WC:U will also be improved to take advantage of them.

About the title screen:
VS can "rotate" between more than 1 splash screen each startup, something that can be implemented in WC:U.
 

MKruer

Rear Admiral
John Cordell said:
My time spend on the Privateer Remake project as QA guy and team member - it was a fight about every little decision that would have made the game more like Privateer. I still remember the discussion with Mamiyaotaru about the Radar colors. I wanted them changed to the Wing Commander Privateer standard and he just said why? In the end i think he changed them in the Remake but not for friendly units. I asked him why he doesn't change them from green to blue and the answer was "I like green." And that's a very simple but perfect example what's pretty much the same with all decisions concerning the project.

There was the possibility to go on and fight about every little (logical) decision and become crazy (and even then i would have no idea if it will really materialize in a future version) or start over with what we had for a more pleasant ending. That was Privateer Gemini Gold 1.0 which still needs alot of work but at least heads to the right direction. I know many changes that i would have fought for years to get them into PR will find with PGG their way into WCU and PR 1.x without even being mentioned and without any heated discussion about given facts...

The wcu vs forum is pretty much the same but 200% much more worse. Many people don't even know Wing Commander but want to decide about stuff and discuss it until the other side is too tired to answer. I love the idea of WCU but i wouldn't survive the permanent fights. It's a very destructive atmosphere over there, that's why i keep my mouth shut.

I remember a fight about the realism of kps for the speed of ships (uii yeah that is really important like hell), they wanted to change it to mps or something. At the end they left kps but increased the planet sizes then released a "new version" and realized that now all ships are crashing into the planets...
No self control, no control at all that's what wcu is, a bunch of people throwing stuff together:
1. Which they like (is coooool)
2. Which were somehow in a Wing Commander game
3. Which 11 year old kids are requesting for fun, sorry ;)

Spiritplumber is pretty much the queen of the mess, not that i don't get around with her but it's just another simple fact :) To solve the whole problem they would need a person who leads them, who's familiar with Wing Commander and decides but they don't want a leader because they all want to lead but where does it lead them? 90% will die on a heart attack sooner or later and the remaining people will kill themselves when they meet (someday). Maybe one will survive and release WCU 0.5 - still not playable but cool! at least for the one who survived it.

However there are also a few very nice wcu/vs people i stay in private contact with which are contributing to PGG and can discuss something without taking everything personal and freak out. It works and it's fun - no frustration and good progress :)

Now what do we learn from these few lines?
1. Don't take my opinion too serious, we are all getting along with each other don't we?
2. Something must change for the WCU people but they have to do it alone, there's no god that will speak to them.
3. Do not listen to people who just spam to get attention listen to people who are familiar with Wing Commander maybe more familiar than you.

What shouldn't you (wcu people) do now?
1. Start an unimportant fight about my post.
2. Shoot yourself.

And what should you (wcu people) do?
1. Sleep a night over this and think about your future.
2. Take valerian first :)

I am not going to disagree with anything you have said, in fact I agree with a great deal of it, however it boils down to whiners and doers. The whiners tend to be the pro keep it classic group and unfortunately the doers are the change everything crowd. The doers also do work.

With that said, I try to not take WCU too seriously, you can’t and expect to remain healthy, however just because I don’t get my way, doesn’t mean I stop contributing.
 

ChrisReid

Super Soaker Collector / Administrator
MKruer said:
I am not going to disagree with anything you have said, in fact I agree with a great deal of it, however it boils down to whiners and doers. The whiners tend to be the pro keep it classic group and unfortunately the doers are the change everything crowd.

I really don't know the sentiments of the internal WCU team, but John Cordell clearly puts a lot of effort into his work, and he's responsible for taking a lot of the odd Priv Remake stuff and bringing it much more in line with the original Privateer. Likewise in virtually every other major Wing Commander mod and fan project, you seem to have a large majority of active people who are very concerned with ensuring their games don't deviate from the series in unreasonable ways.
 

charlieg

Spaceman
Bandit LOAF said:
...punched in the nose...
Dude, you really need to let this one go...

Bandit LOAF said:
Whoever taught you that this was an effective rhetorical trick was lying. It doesn't work in practice, everyone sees straight through it every single time.
But it did work, even if it was by making you scorn said practice before responding! :)

Bandit LOAF said:
We're not going to go to your message board and fix your game.
Not asking ya to. Obviously if you want your car fixed you go to a garage. If we want help / advice, we gotta engage people here as appropriate.

John: Whilst you have some valid points, your talk about game bugs is frankly naive. WCU has a version number of "0.2 ALPHA" and to think that everything will work perfectly is ludicrous. Yes, features will be added, yes they will sometimes break things. That's all part and parcel of game development. Then they will be fixed, then refined, and eventually they will work nicely. I would be highly surprised if any of the people on Crius who developed a WC game could claim everything they tried worked first time. The difference is that WCU is undergoing "open" development (i.e. you get to see all the hiccups) whereas most of WC fan projects don't seem to release much before the final version of their respective games.
 

Bandit LOAF

Long Live the Confederation!
Dude, you really need to let this one go...

Why? It's hilarious.

It just so happens that we got another threatening e-mail from Spiritplumber this morning. It seems that he's not happy that we banned his fifth or sixth forums registration and warns us to undo the accompanying IP ban or 'we'll be sorry'.
 
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