EPISODE 3 Discussion
- Thread starter Darkmage
- Start date
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I have nothing against the Z-95 per say, but I do think that it came into being for the absolute worst of reasons. Collecting concept work that evolved into something else and claiming that it's *really* a new ship that we'd never seen before is silly, silly stuff.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
First thing's first...Starkey, I'm still laughing myself silly over your SW scenes that never happened...very funny stuff! So, thanks for that. 
I thought I'd give my impression on things:
First off, a summary for those who don't feel like reading any lengthy discertation - I liked Episode 3 considerably more than Episodes 1 & 2, but still considerably less than 4-6. As for why the old ones were better:
The acting was ok...it was the script itself that I think was lacking. The pace of the movie was lightspeed, but the dialogue was far from it. I think that created a bit of a tear in the overall cohesion of the story. When you look at those scenes where Anakin is talking to Padme, or the confrontation between various people...something in the dialogue just felt weird and distant about it. It's like they kept tossing random ideas into the pot and stirring it, rather than letting one idea naturally flow to another. The result...we wind up planet-hopping across a universe full of new and forgetable planets experiencing strange dialogues between apathetic individuals who feel about as strongly for one another as you guys feel for me!
The whole love story between Anakin and Padme...eh, I could never really buy it from the beginning, and it wasn't any easier by Episode 3. People liked the relationship between Han Solo and Leia in the original trilogy. Why? Han would say something flirtatious, Leia would verbally kick him in the 'nads, and he'd annoy her by pointing out an unintended double-meaning in something she said...and she'd just wind up rolling her eyes. It was playful, it was fun. We don't get that anymore...there's no spirit, no sarcastic rapport, no attitude...it just feels cheesy, apathetic, almost like it's trying to feel its way around in the dark.
I mentioned the thing about love above. About the only part of the newer movies that had emotion was after Anakin had both legs and an arm lopped off and was literally burning near a river of molten lava! Holy hell! Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill who we all know and - to a large extent - love from Wing Commander) seemed like he had much more emotion...whether it was palling around with his buddy Han Solo, scratching Chewie behind the ears, treating R2-D2 more like a person than a droid...when it came to him confronting Vader, there was noteable fear in his whole behavior and stance in "Empire Strikes Back." Then pain and disbelief when he got his hand lopped off soon thereafter. Then in the third movie, he tried to keep his wits about him until Vader threatened to turn his sister to the darkside...and then, you could see the vengeance and hatred fully manifest themselves as he fought his father. I still have to say...even though that battle in RotJ didn't have all the flashy choreography we all salivate over in these newer movies...it was still, in my opinion, the best lightsaber battle scene. Why? Just look at the emotion that went behind it, and the reasoning behind it. Of all the battles we've seen in Star Wars, it was the one between two individuals that really held a deep meaning...it did back when we first saw it, and it does even more now that we know the history behind it. Darth Vader was confident throughout all the movies, but in that one scene, you get the fact that he is downright intimidated by Luke's passion. The newer movies don't have that "wow" feeling to them.
Another thing about the newer movies...is it just me, or is every character introduced completely worthless and forgetable if they don't have a lightsaber? In 4-6, you could be an awesome bounty-hunter, a smuggler, a droid...hell, even a dancer or a chubby green dude holding a battle axe (Gammorean, or whatever) in Jabba's entourage, and you have a pretty big and noteworthy part. In episode 1-3, you're scenery that might get some face time in-between lightsaber battles. If you don't have a lightsaber, you're not essential to the storyline, unless you're from the Organa family, Padme, Uncle Owen, or Aunt Beru...most of which don't get much screen time throughout the three movies.
R2-D2, yes....slow down, buddy! It looked like whoever they got to crawl in the tin can this time took some cocaine, washed it down with a 12-pack of Mountain Dew, gave himself an adrenaline shot to the heart, then used a defibrilator on himself. It's like they tried to have R2-D2 go crazy right off the bat to invalidate my claim in the last paragraph...yet it still holds, because beyond the initial opening scenes, R2-D2 becomes another animated prop.
The fight scenes in Episode 3 were pretty decent for the most part. I felt bad about the Jedi, even though none of these characters were ever really introduced to us much in the previous films. The battle between Windu & Palpatine, Yoda & Palpatine, and Obi-Wan & Anakin were all pretty spectacular and well done. Obi-Wan vs. Grevious was completely a waste of time, sadly. The problem here is EXACTLY the same problem I had with Anakin vs. Dooku in Episode 2 with the two lightsabers...guys, you need to stretch it out longer! With the exception of a few video games, I haven't seen the two lightsaber thing pulled off well within Star Wars. If we're going to be focusing on a time when every person and his mother has a lightsaber, let's have more staff action and more dual-saber action. The 2-lightsaber thing in Episode 2 lasted less than 10 seconds...Grevious' 4-lightsaber thing in Episode 3 didn't even last that long. People, either stretch it out, or don't have it at all.
Yoda fighting with a lightsaber...I was completely appalled in both Episode 2 & 3 about it. While others have the argument that Yoda's strong in the Force or whatever...the fact remains the dude is eight hundred some years old plus, right? Yoda could be a wise old Jedi...know more about the Force itself than lightsaber styles. That would make more sense anyway...in "Empire Strikes Back" or "Return of the Jedi," did Yoda ever teach Luke a darn thing about how to fight with his lightsaber? No...Yoda taught him the principles and the ways of the Force itself. As such...if you want to have Yoda do battle, fine...but have it so he can surround himself in some kind of Force shield and use the environment much more to his advantage, or if you want to do the lightsaber thing...then do what the main badguy does at the end of the game, "Knights of the Old Republic 2," where the Force would be used to direct multiple lightsabers weaving around and striking out through the Force around him. All of these would seem infinitely more believable, and Yoda could still use his walking stick coming in and leaving, and people would buy it without thinking at first glance that it's a complete joke.
The fall from grace was weak. I can't believe that Anakin would be so easily manipulated by Palpatine...first, he falls to try and find a way to save Padme. Then when she comes to see him, he tries to strangle her? No, sorry...I don't buy it. That's a SERIOUS oversight, in my mind. If he did everything for her - and we're led to believe he did - he wouldn't try to kill her, no matter how conflicted he felt. He also wouldn't buy Palpatine's stuff hook, line, and sinker just based on what we saw. By this point, Anakin was a Jedi of great prestige...he wouldn't so easily bow to ANYONE, let alone Palpatine.
The histories are missing. It sounds like there's a history behind Grevious. Do we see it? No. There HAS to be a history behind Palpatine...a Sith of that kind of power HAS to have a very interesting backstory. Do we see it? Hell...he's not even a main character till like the second half of Episode 2!
There were holes in many of the tie-ins, as many of you have said. Ironically, many of the tie-ins actually pissed me off! Chewbacca knowing Yoda? Come on! So now we need to redo the original three movies AGAIN to make it seem like Chewbacca knew Yoda for cohesion, right? I hated those one-liners by Obi-Wan, saying Anakin's "always on the move," or that blasters are "uncivilized" or whatever...we get it. Yoda said the same thing about Anakin later on, and Obi-Wan complained about blasters in "A New Hope." We don't NEED to hear these lines. If Anakin jumps through the elevator ceiling, Obi-Wan could just raise an eyebrow...we'd understand! If Anakin just blasted Grevious with a blaster, took a look at the weapon afterwards, then just tossed it away...we'd get it! We don't need to hear the lines that solidify the notion! It's overdone, and it's annoying when you've seen the original movies as many times as I have!
Last thing to complain about - the aliens in Episodes 1-3. I think my sister said it best - "they're anti-Darwinism!" The funniest scene was in Episode 2 when Dooku is talking to the Separist leaders...you have your dude with the skinny, long, giraffe-like neck, then you have your man/droid thing that mid-setence needs to twists his own nipples to spit out a sentence...what the hell?!
Look, give us aliens, but let's have them look like they belong...rather than just a bunch of random ideas that people spat out and you ran with simply because you think it's "different."
Ok...enough of my ranting and raving about why the new ones were not as good as the old ones...now then, to touch on some of the issues previously discussed in this thread:
(1) Jedi...the guardians of peace and justice, and devoid of attachments. This is an interesting topic that has been touched on strongly in the games KOTOR and KOTOR 2...if you haven't played them, I highly recommend the first KOTOR. The whole line between good and evil is a fine one. Things like Force lightning, Force grip (strangle), etc. are darker powers, but are not inherently evil - it's a question of how they are used. Similarly, attachments to a family or to a loved one are discouraged in the Jedi Order, but I don't think they're necessarily outlawed completely. Now why is this the case? It's simple...the Jedi are the guardians of peace, harmony, etc. Passions get in the way of clear thinking. This is why the Jedi are always depicted as the force of good, but why they also seem to be always so hesitant. Think about something like war. Wars are started when one side engages another...then the other side fights back, and so on and so forth. Passionately acting here perpetuates a vicious cycle. The Jedi are always cautious when it comes to approaching such things, as they feel the only true threat in the universe are their polar opposites, the Sith, who would seek to instigate such conflict as oppose to alleviating it. Does this mean they don't love life? Hardly. But it means they believe in carefully extending their powers and influence over others, and likewise being influenced BY others, which does make sense. It's that whole "with great power comes great responsibility" concept established in Spider-Man. You can't just go around waving your lightsaber around like you own the place. That is not the Jedi way, the way of harmony, the way of peace, the way of equality.
(2) Mace Windu versus Palpatine. At first, I think Mace intends to arrest Palpatine to investigate further whether he is, in fact, the Sith Lord they seek. When Palpatine goes wacko and kills the three other Jedi, I think Mace changes his mind at that point. With Palpatine holding the power he does over the Senate and the courts, there would never be a fair trial against him...he would escape whatever punishment the Jedi Council would seek because he had already gained that much influence by this point in time. This leaves three choices - exile of the Sith, conversion back to the light, or destruction. The first two are impossibilities because Palpatine is far too powerful, too wretched, too influential. Mace decides the third option. It may not be the Council's IDEAL way, but it is nevertheless the Jedi way. Palpatine has destroyed the balance and the universe suffers under his control...Palpatine must be removed. Eventually, it falls to Vader to do this.
(3) Anakin is this prophecy to restore balance to the Force. Some think this means he has to turn evil...others argue that he's supposed to destroy evil. Truthfully, I believe he is meant to destroy both good and evil...wipe out both sides so both will have to start from scratch once more. Anakin helps destroy the Jedi Order, but he is also the only one strong enough to destroy the Emperor in the end. To me, this makes him a much stronger Jedi than any that had come before him - including Yoda and Luke, both of which were defeated by the Emperor. One has to also wonder if this was part of the Prophecy...for Vader to remain the right-hand of the Emperor until the opportune moment when he saw the opportunity to destroy the Sith and took it.
Hrmmm....I think that's probably enough to leave everyone chewing on for now.
Believe it or not, I DID like Episode 3...probably because there wasn't any downtime for me to get hung-up on the lousy dialogue. But it still fails in comparison to the original trilogy...because in the original movies, you could enjoy the quiet moments when the characters would just sit and talk. In related news, get "LEGO Star Wars" if you haven't already...they do a good job showing you Episodes 1-3, and guess what - they do it without any dialogue! Go figure!
As for George Lucas...he's become one of those rich guys I just love to hate. He found a formula people would sink their teeth into, and he's making every penny he can off it. But I've seen some making-of-Episode-3 movies online, and...correct me if I'm wrong...but it looks like the only thing George Lucas did himself was actually write the script! People under him came up with the hair styles and look of all the characters (including Grevious)...he didn't come up with how the lightsaber battles even really went...at one point, he said something about the script, "I cheated....lots of 'they fight.'" So do I have respect for George Lucas? No...ESPECIALLY not after seeing how little he actually does anymore. But I have respect for the talented people working under him...and I love Star Wars, so somebody just be sure to wake me up when the next one comes out, alright? Whether I love it or hate it, I'll be onboard.
As for the people arguing how bad the movie was, or those arguing how bad the people are who are arguing how bad the movie was...ehhh, don't worry about it, guys. If any of us were THAT turned off to Star Wars, we wouldn't be in a Wing Commander forum right now talking about it, right? If some are arguing just to be playing devil's advocate, well that's all fine and dandy. No point in having a discussion if there aren't people pushing the envelope on both sides, eh?
Seeking balance just like the Force,
Your friendly padawan of a WC lover,
Obi-Wan FireFalcon ~};^
I thought I'd give my impression on things:
First off, a summary for those who don't feel like reading any lengthy discertation - I liked Episode 3 considerably more than Episodes 1 & 2, but still considerably less than 4-6. As for why the old ones were better:
The acting was ok...it was the script itself that I think was lacking. The pace of the movie was lightspeed, but the dialogue was far from it. I think that created a bit of a tear in the overall cohesion of the story. When you look at those scenes where Anakin is talking to Padme, or the confrontation between various people...something in the dialogue just felt weird and distant about it. It's like they kept tossing random ideas into the pot and stirring it, rather than letting one idea naturally flow to another. The result...we wind up planet-hopping across a universe full of new and forgetable planets experiencing strange dialogues between apathetic individuals who feel about as strongly for one another as you guys feel for me!
The whole love story between Anakin and Padme...eh, I could never really buy it from the beginning, and it wasn't any easier by Episode 3. People liked the relationship between Han Solo and Leia in the original trilogy. Why? Han would say something flirtatious, Leia would verbally kick him in the 'nads, and he'd annoy her by pointing out an unintended double-meaning in something she said...and she'd just wind up rolling her eyes. It was playful, it was fun. We don't get that anymore...there's no spirit, no sarcastic rapport, no attitude...it just feels cheesy, apathetic, almost like it's trying to feel its way around in the dark.
I mentioned the thing about love above. About the only part of the newer movies that had emotion was after Anakin had both legs and an arm lopped off and was literally burning near a river of molten lava! Holy hell! Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill who we all know and - to a large extent - love from Wing Commander) seemed like he had much more emotion...whether it was palling around with his buddy Han Solo, scratching Chewie behind the ears, treating R2-D2 more like a person than a droid...when it came to him confronting Vader, there was noteable fear in his whole behavior and stance in "Empire Strikes Back." Then pain and disbelief when he got his hand lopped off soon thereafter. Then in the third movie, he tried to keep his wits about him until Vader threatened to turn his sister to the darkside...and then, you could see the vengeance and hatred fully manifest themselves as he fought his father. I still have to say...even though that battle in RotJ didn't have all the flashy choreography we all salivate over in these newer movies...it was still, in my opinion, the best lightsaber battle scene. Why? Just look at the emotion that went behind it, and the reasoning behind it. Of all the battles we've seen in Star Wars, it was the one between two individuals that really held a deep meaning...it did back when we first saw it, and it does even more now that we know the history behind it. Darth Vader was confident throughout all the movies, but in that one scene, you get the fact that he is downright intimidated by Luke's passion. The newer movies don't have that "wow" feeling to them.
Another thing about the newer movies...is it just me, or is every character introduced completely worthless and forgetable if they don't have a lightsaber? In 4-6, you could be an awesome bounty-hunter, a smuggler, a droid...hell, even a dancer or a chubby green dude holding a battle axe (Gammorean, or whatever) in Jabba's entourage, and you have a pretty big and noteworthy part. In episode 1-3, you're scenery that might get some face time in-between lightsaber battles. If you don't have a lightsaber, you're not essential to the storyline, unless you're from the Organa family, Padme, Uncle Owen, or Aunt Beru...most of which don't get much screen time throughout the three movies.
R2-D2, yes....slow down, buddy! It looked like whoever they got to crawl in the tin can this time took some cocaine, washed it down with a 12-pack of Mountain Dew, gave himself an adrenaline shot to the heart, then used a defibrilator on himself. It's like they tried to have R2-D2 go crazy right off the bat to invalidate my claim in the last paragraph...yet it still holds, because beyond the initial opening scenes, R2-D2 becomes another animated prop.
The fight scenes in Episode 3 were pretty decent for the most part. I felt bad about the Jedi, even though none of these characters were ever really introduced to us much in the previous films. The battle between Windu & Palpatine, Yoda & Palpatine, and Obi-Wan & Anakin were all pretty spectacular and well done. Obi-Wan vs. Grevious was completely a waste of time, sadly. The problem here is EXACTLY the same problem I had with Anakin vs. Dooku in Episode 2 with the two lightsabers...guys, you need to stretch it out longer! With the exception of a few video games, I haven't seen the two lightsaber thing pulled off well within Star Wars. If we're going to be focusing on a time when every person and his mother has a lightsaber, let's have more staff action and more dual-saber action. The 2-lightsaber thing in Episode 2 lasted less than 10 seconds...Grevious' 4-lightsaber thing in Episode 3 didn't even last that long. People, either stretch it out, or don't have it at all.
Yoda fighting with a lightsaber...I was completely appalled in both Episode 2 & 3 about it. While others have the argument that Yoda's strong in the Force or whatever...the fact remains the dude is eight hundred some years old plus, right? Yoda could be a wise old Jedi...know more about the Force itself than lightsaber styles. That would make more sense anyway...in "Empire Strikes Back" or "Return of the Jedi," did Yoda ever teach Luke a darn thing about how to fight with his lightsaber? No...Yoda taught him the principles and the ways of the Force itself. As such...if you want to have Yoda do battle, fine...but have it so he can surround himself in some kind of Force shield and use the environment much more to his advantage, or if you want to do the lightsaber thing...then do what the main badguy does at the end of the game, "Knights of the Old Republic 2," where the Force would be used to direct multiple lightsabers weaving around and striking out through the Force around him. All of these would seem infinitely more believable, and Yoda could still use his walking stick coming in and leaving, and people would buy it without thinking at first glance that it's a complete joke.
The fall from grace was weak. I can't believe that Anakin would be so easily manipulated by Palpatine...first, he falls to try and find a way to save Padme. Then when she comes to see him, he tries to strangle her? No, sorry...I don't buy it. That's a SERIOUS oversight, in my mind. If he did everything for her - and we're led to believe he did - he wouldn't try to kill her, no matter how conflicted he felt. He also wouldn't buy Palpatine's stuff hook, line, and sinker just based on what we saw. By this point, Anakin was a Jedi of great prestige...he wouldn't so easily bow to ANYONE, let alone Palpatine.
The histories are missing. It sounds like there's a history behind Grevious. Do we see it? No. There HAS to be a history behind Palpatine...a Sith of that kind of power HAS to have a very interesting backstory. Do we see it? Hell...he's not even a main character till like the second half of Episode 2!
There were holes in many of the tie-ins, as many of you have said. Ironically, many of the tie-ins actually pissed me off! Chewbacca knowing Yoda? Come on! So now we need to redo the original three movies AGAIN to make it seem like Chewbacca knew Yoda for cohesion, right? I hated those one-liners by Obi-Wan, saying Anakin's "always on the move," or that blasters are "uncivilized" or whatever...we get it. Yoda said the same thing about Anakin later on, and Obi-Wan complained about blasters in "A New Hope." We don't NEED to hear these lines. If Anakin jumps through the elevator ceiling, Obi-Wan could just raise an eyebrow...we'd understand! If Anakin just blasted Grevious with a blaster, took a look at the weapon afterwards, then just tossed it away...we'd get it! We don't need to hear the lines that solidify the notion! It's overdone, and it's annoying when you've seen the original movies as many times as I have!
Last thing to complain about - the aliens in Episodes 1-3. I think my sister said it best - "they're anti-Darwinism!" The funniest scene was in Episode 2 when Dooku is talking to the Separist leaders...you have your dude with the skinny, long, giraffe-like neck, then you have your man/droid thing that mid-setence needs to twists his own nipples to spit out a sentence...what the hell?!
Look, give us aliens, but let's have them look like they belong...rather than just a bunch of random ideas that people spat out and you ran with simply because you think it's "different."Ok...enough of my ranting and raving about why the new ones were not as good as the old ones...now then, to touch on some of the issues previously discussed in this thread:
(1) Jedi...the guardians of peace and justice, and devoid of attachments. This is an interesting topic that has been touched on strongly in the games KOTOR and KOTOR 2...if you haven't played them, I highly recommend the first KOTOR. The whole line between good and evil is a fine one. Things like Force lightning, Force grip (strangle), etc. are darker powers, but are not inherently evil - it's a question of how they are used. Similarly, attachments to a family or to a loved one are discouraged in the Jedi Order, but I don't think they're necessarily outlawed completely. Now why is this the case? It's simple...the Jedi are the guardians of peace, harmony, etc. Passions get in the way of clear thinking. This is why the Jedi are always depicted as the force of good, but why they also seem to be always so hesitant. Think about something like war. Wars are started when one side engages another...then the other side fights back, and so on and so forth. Passionately acting here perpetuates a vicious cycle. The Jedi are always cautious when it comes to approaching such things, as they feel the only true threat in the universe are their polar opposites, the Sith, who would seek to instigate such conflict as oppose to alleviating it. Does this mean they don't love life? Hardly. But it means they believe in carefully extending their powers and influence over others, and likewise being influenced BY others, which does make sense. It's that whole "with great power comes great responsibility" concept established in Spider-Man. You can't just go around waving your lightsaber around like you own the place. That is not the Jedi way, the way of harmony, the way of peace, the way of equality.
(2) Mace Windu versus Palpatine. At first, I think Mace intends to arrest Palpatine to investigate further whether he is, in fact, the Sith Lord they seek. When Palpatine goes wacko and kills the three other Jedi, I think Mace changes his mind at that point. With Palpatine holding the power he does over the Senate and the courts, there would never be a fair trial against him...he would escape whatever punishment the Jedi Council would seek because he had already gained that much influence by this point in time. This leaves three choices - exile of the Sith, conversion back to the light, or destruction. The first two are impossibilities because Palpatine is far too powerful, too wretched, too influential. Mace decides the third option. It may not be the Council's IDEAL way, but it is nevertheless the Jedi way. Palpatine has destroyed the balance and the universe suffers under his control...Palpatine must be removed. Eventually, it falls to Vader to do this.
(3) Anakin is this prophecy to restore balance to the Force. Some think this means he has to turn evil...others argue that he's supposed to destroy evil. Truthfully, I believe he is meant to destroy both good and evil...wipe out both sides so both will have to start from scratch once more. Anakin helps destroy the Jedi Order, but he is also the only one strong enough to destroy the Emperor in the end. To me, this makes him a much stronger Jedi than any that had come before him - including Yoda and Luke, both of which were defeated by the Emperor. One has to also wonder if this was part of the Prophecy...for Vader to remain the right-hand of the Emperor until the opportune moment when he saw the opportunity to destroy the Sith and took it.
Hrmmm....I think that's probably enough to leave everyone chewing on for now.
Believe it or not, I DID like Episode 3...probably because there wasn't any downtime for me to get hung-up on the lousy dialogue. But it still fails in comparison to the original trilogy...because in the original movies, you could enjoy the quiet moments when the characters would just sit and talk. In related news, get "LEGO Star Wars" if you haven't already...they do a good job showing you Episodes 1-3, and guess what - they do it without any dialogue! Go figure!
As for George Lucas...he's become one of those rich guys I just love to hate. He found a formula people would sink their teeth into, and he's making every penny he can off it. But I've seen some making-of-Episode-3 movies online, and...correct me if I'm wrong...but it looks like the only thing George Lucas did himself was actually write the script! People under him came up with the hair styles and look of all the characters (including Grevious)...he didn't come up with how the lightsaber battles even really went...at one point, he said something about the script, "I cheated....lots of 'they fight.'" So do I have respect for George Lucas? No...ESPECIALLY not after seeing how little he actually does anymore. But I have respect for the talented people working under him...and I love Star Wars, so somebody just be sure to wake me up when the next one comes out, alright? Whether I love it or hate it, I'll be onboard.
As for the people arguing how bad the movie was, or those arguing how bad the people are who are arguing how bad the movie was...ehhh, don't worry about it, guys. If any of us were THAT turned off to Star Wars, we wouldn't be in a Wing Commander forum right now talking about it, right?
If some are arguing just to be playing devil's advocate, well that's all fine and dandy. No point in having a discussion if there aren't people pushing the envelope on both sides, eh? Seeking balance just like the Force,
Your friendly padawan of a WC lover,
Obi-Wan FireFalcon ~};^
TIRex
Rear Admiral
By the way, can annyone explain me why Chewie shouldn't knew Yoda?
It's about 25 years between the battle on Kashyyyk and Jukes Jedi-training. Even for a Wookie a long time. Especially if you are chased from one end of the galaxy to the other (you would have other things in your mind than some old green dwarf from some 20 years ago)
And by the time Luke rejoins his friends (between EP5 & EP6) he never mentioned Joda by name or even that he was trained by an old Jedimaster in that muddhole (at least not in the german syncronisation).
And Chewie couldn't knew Yoda's hideout. He choosed that place as exil after his escape from Kashyyyk.
So why should the old movies be redone?
It's about 25 years between the battle on Kashyyyk and Jukes Jedi-training. Even for a Wookie a long time. Especially if you are chased from one end of the galaxy to the other (you would have other things in your mind than some old green dwarf from some 20 years ago)
And by the time Luke rejoins his friends (between EP5 & EP6) he never mentioned Joda by name or even that he was trained by an old Jedimaster in that muddhole (at least not in the german syncronisation).
And Chewie couldn't knew Yoda's hideout. He choosed that place as exil after his escape from Kashyyyk.
So why should the old movies be redone?
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Heya, TIRex.
Good question there. Really, I can only argue it as a matter of opinion. When you take the fact that Wookies are generally considered the honor-bound life-debt pledging members of the Star Wars Universe, and consider the fact that Yoda was sent as the general from the Jedi Council to help the Wookies, even after twenty-five years, I'd be inclined to think you'd remember a fellow warrior and Jedi who came to your aid. So when Luke becomes a Jedi Knight all those years later, I'd almost be inclined to think Chewie would want to sit down with him and talk to him all about the good ole days, talk to him about Yoda, etc.
But again, this is a matter of opinion and speculation, not hard fact. So I'm not saying your argument is in any way invalid. It just seems to me that if you're going to have Yoda and Chewbacca know each other by name during a great battle of Kashyyyk, that that's something that would stick with both years later and pique their curiosity when they find something that links them together again - Luke Skywalker and/or Obi-Wan Kenobi. To me, that would be a natural curiosity.
In the original episodes, Chewbacca is more like a side-kick to Han Solo, not an old warrior with a history of fighting alongside the Jedi. He's a co-pilot of the Millenium Falcon rather than an experienced ground warrior or Wookie general. Sure, he can handle himself ok with a bowcaster, but he comes across more as a smuggler side-kick than a distinguished war veteran. In Return of the Jedi, he's tossing the charges to Han to destroy the shield generator installation on Endor - we don't see Chewie planting any charges himself (unless I'm mistaken)...yet the field Wookies in Revenge of the Sith are seen planting charges on droid vehicles.
I don't know...I just don't buy into it. It's one of those things where you just know they included it so that fans could get all excited and say, "hey, it's Chewie! SWEET!" But it just doesn't feel like it fits with the character we all knew and loved in Episodes 4-6.
At least that's my take on things. Again, I'm not saying anybody else is wrong for feeling different; we're all entitled to our own opinions. It just doesn't work for me. That's all I'm saying, and that's all my lengthy review before was all about.
I just think George Lucas would have benefited from watching the old movies a few more times to gain a better perspective of where he needed to go, which niche all the characters fell into, and the spirit of the older movies that people loved back when. But again, that too is a matter of personal opinion, so please take no offense if you feel differently.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Good question there. Really, I can only argue it as a matter of opinion. When you take the fact that Wookies are generally considered the honor-bound life-debt pledging members of the Star Wars Universe, and consider the fact that Yoda was sent as the general from the Jedi Council to help the Wookies, even after twenty-five years, I'd be inclined to think you'd remember a fellow warrior and Jedi who came to your aid. So when Luke becomes a Jedi Knight all those years later, I'd almost be inclined to think Chewie would want to sit down with him and talk to him all about the good ole days, talk to him about Yoda, etc.
But again, this is a matter of opinion and speculation, not hard fact. So I'm not saying your argument is in any way invalid. It just seems to me that if you're going to have Yoda and Chewbacca know each other by name during a great battle of Kashyyyk, that that's something that would stick with both years later and pique their curiosity when they find something that links them together again - Luke Skywalker and/or Obi-Wan Kenobi. To me, that would be a natural curiosity.
In the original episodes, Chewbacca is more like a side-kick to Han Solo, not an old warrior with a history of fighting alongside the Jedi. He's a co-pilot of the Millenium Falcon rather than an experienced ground warrior or Wookie general. Sure, he can handle himself ok with a bowcaster, but he comes across more as a smuggler side-kick than a distinguished war veteran. In Return of the Jedi, he's tossing the charges to Han to destroy the shield generator installation on Endor - we don't see Chewie planting any charges himself (unless I'm mistaken)...yet the field Wookies in Revenge of the Sith are seen planting charges on droid vehicles.
I don't know...I just don't buy into it. It's one of those things where you just know they included it so that fans could get all excited and say, "hey, it's Chewie! SWEET!" But it just doesn't feel like it fits with the character we all knew and loved in Episodes 4-6.
At least that's my take on things. Again, I'm not saying anybody else is wrong for feeling different; we're all entitled to our own opinions. It just doesn't work for me. That's all I'm saying, and that's all my lengthy review before was all about.
I just think George Lucas would have benefited from watching the old movies a few more times to gain a better perspective of where he needed to go, which niche all the characters fell into, and the spirit of the older movies that people loved back when. But again, that too is a matter of personal opinion, so please take no offense if you feel differently.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Edfilho
Cry some more!
I'd just like to point that bad dialogue is part of the recipe for SW movies. Go watch Buck Rodgers and Flash Gordon serials that inspired the series. Chesy one-liners and out-of-the-blue romances too. Ilogical aliens, check.
Everything fits, if you take SW for what it is, and not what we want it to be.
If you want true meaninful cinema, go watch Woody Allen or Ingmar Bergman (both directors I really like).
SW is cheesy nerdy fun. It is the first and greatest teen summer movie. It is not high art, nor it was ever meant to be, even if poor Lucas keeps fooling himself with all that Campbell stuff that Delance keeps bitiching about.
I love star wars, it has shaped my kid fantasies and aspirations. But it is no Picasso, guys.
BTW, I think ep3 sucks because Chewie has three strands of hair in the wrong place, that is stupid! lucas is teh ghey.
Everything fits, if you take SW for what it is, and not what we want it to be.
If you want true meaninful cinema, go watch Woody Allen or Ingmar Bergman (both directors I really like).
SW is cheesy nerdy fun. It is the first and greatest teen summer movie. It is not high art, nor it was ever meant to be, even if poor Lucas keeps fooling himself with all that Campbell stuff that Delance keeps bitiching about.
I love star wars, it has shaped my kid fantasies and aspirations. But it is no Picasso, guys.
BTW, I think ep3 sucks because Chewie has three strands of hair in the wrong place, that is stupid! lucas is teh ghey.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
HA, Ed...funny stuff; love the sarcasm.
No, you're right...the movies are meant to be more fun than anything. And you're right...you're not going to find something terribly cerebral or philosophically & artistically deep in something like Star Wars (not withstanding the whole Jedi/Sith dynamic that could, perhaps in some groups, fall into these categories). Sorry to say that I'm definitely not a Woody Allen fan, and am not familiar with Bergman, but hey - to each his/her own, eh?
Again, I'm not knocking Episode 3 for completely ridiculous reasons. Frankly, I think they shot themselves in the foot when they didn't cover that much ground in Episodes 1 & 2, and then tried to squeeze everything in at the last second in Episode 3.
As for the movie itself...again, it's a point one could argue any which way. Has any Star Wars movie been that madly well-written? Have characters said only things that were important, poignant, etc.? Of course not...Star Wars is about a bunch of poor shmucks that wind up being the under-dogs in an endless saga, and many of the dialogues (in both the old and new movies) support that theme which is why we like things like Star Wars, Wing Commander, Battlestar Galactica, etc.
Like I said...I definitely liked Episode 3 more than 1 & 2, but I'm convinced it was because of the break-neck speed of the whole thing. When you focus on the dialogue and the acting, it comes up short compared to the originals, in my honest opinion (again - opinion here...I'm not alleging it to be a universal truth). The noteable exception is when Obi-Wan defeats Anakin and they have their last words to each other - that was good acting and conversation, I think.
There was action, there were lightsaber battles...the question I ask you is - were any of these movies as fun as the originals? And my honest opinion is that no, they weren't.
Now if you disagree, hey...I'm not here to tell you what to believe. But bear in mind here - I'm also not poking fun at the movie because Chewie's hairs were out of place either. I'm not one of these guys who says, "see, that can't happen because the purple lightsaber's crystal is stronger," or anything like that. Again, it just happened to be my opinion that Chewbacca really didn't just feel like himself to me in Episode 3. Take that however you want it.
Was it entertaining? Absolutely...I think all things considered, they did a pretty good job with this one - far better than the last two at any rate. But looking beyond all those fancy special effects, it just seemed too mechanical to me - the emotions didn't feel real, the interactions all seemed awkward. In short, I just didn't have as much fun with these newer ones as I did with the old ones even with all the snazzy eye-candy.
I think it's just one of those things, though, ya know? You might look at Episode 3 and think it's the greatest Star Wars ever. And hey - who's to say you're wrong? I just personally feel differently, and days after my mind begins reviewing things after all those nicely choreographed lightsaber battles and special effects images have faded, I just can't seem to find anything particularly memorable about it, and I think that's because there was nothing in it that really did anything for me impact-wise on a more human level.
I apologize if it seems like I dissed Star Wars Episodes 1-3 or any of you who were fans of the movies...such was not my intention. I simply saw the chance to give my opinion and maybe put it into perspective why others might not have been as thrilled with these as opposed to earlier movies. They're all good movies...I guess I just have different preferences, as do we all.
Anyway...regardless...no hard feelings, eh?
- FireFalcon ~};^
No, you're right...the movies are meant to be more fun than anything. And you're right...you're not going to find something terribly cerebral or philosophically & artistically deep in something like Star Wars (not withstanding the whole Jedi/Sith dynamic that could, perhaps in some groups, fall into these categories). Sorry to say that I'm definitely not a Woody Allen fan, and am not familiar with Bergman, but hey - to each his/her own, eh?
Again, I'm not knocking Episode 3 for completely ridiculous reasons. Frankly, I think they shot themselves in the foot when they didn't cover that much ground in Episodes 1 & 2, and then tried to squeeze everything in at the last second in Episode 3.
As for the movie itself...again, it's a point one could argue any which way. Has any Star Wars movie been that madly well-written? Have characters said only things that were important, poignant, etc.? Of course not...Star Wars is about a bunch of poor shmucks that wind up being the under-dogs in an endless saga, and many of the dialogues (in both the old and new movies) support that theme which is why we like things like Star Wars, Wing Commander, Battlestar Galactica, etc.
Like I said...I definitely liked Episode 3 more than 1 & 2, but I'm convinced it was because of the break-neck speed of the whole thing. When you focus on the dialogue and the acting, it comes up short compared to the originals, in my honest opinion (again - opinion here...I'm not alleging it to be a universal truth). The noteable exception is when Obi-Wan defeats Anakin and they have their last words to each other - that was good acting and conversation, I think.
There was action, there were lightsaber battles...the question I ask you is - were any of these movies as fun as the originals? And my honest opinion is that no, they weren't.
Now if you disagree, hey...I'm not here to tell you what to believe.
But bear in mind here - I'm also not poking fun at the movie because Chewie's hairs were out of place either. I'm not one of these guys who says, "see, that can't happen because the purple lightsaber's crystal is stronger," or anything like that. Again, it just happened to be my opinion that Chewbacca really didn't just feel like himself to me in Episode 3. Take that however you want it. Was it entertaining? Absolutely...I think all things considered, they did a pretty good job with this one - far better than the last two at any rate. But looking beyond all those fancy special effects, it just seemed too mechanical to me - the emotions didn't feel real, the interactions all seemed awkward. In short, I just didn't have as much fun with these newer ones as I did with the old ones even with all the snazzy eye-candy.
I think it's just one of those things, though, ya know? You might look at Episode 3 and think it's the greatest Star Wars ever. And hey - who's to say you're wrong? I just personally feel differently, and days after my mind begins reviewing things after all those nicely choreographed lightsaber battles and special effects images have faded, I just can't seem to find anything particularly memorable about it, and I think that's because there was nothing in it that really did anything for me impact-wise on a more human level.
I apologize if it seems like I dissed Star Wars Episodes 1-3 or any of you who were fans of the movies...such was not my intention. I simply saw the chance to give my opinion and maybe put it into perspective why others might not have been as thrilled with these as opposed to earlier movies. They're all good movies...I guess I just have different preferences, as do we all.
Anyway...regardless...no hard feelings, eh?
- FireFalcon ~};^
TIRex
Rear Admiral
I couldn't write that anny better.Edfilho said:
Like I said in another forum, Star Wars is Lucas' "child", his world, his dream.
And he made it like he want it to be. Thats his right.
I think to manny fans seam to forget that.
Sure there are manny things that could be done different and/or better. But it was still his choice, and he inclueded manny fanmade facts in the EP 1-3 like the Cityplanet of Corucant or Chewies homeworld Kashyyyk.
But it remains still his univers.
And even if I don't like EP 1&2 that much like the rest, I DO like the whole SW-Universe like it is.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Good commentary, Mace...you made a very valid point.
Still, the whole former friends fighting each other to the verge of death...I would think that should be a pretty big fight emotionally. It sure lasted a lot longer than the battle between Luke and Vader, and was infinitely more spectacular with all the moves they were doing and the scenery...
In defense of the final battle, though, it was emotional after Obi-Wan dealt the final blow that ended the battle. And in Episode 3's defense, I have to say I was overly impressed with Ewan McGregor's performance throughout the whole thing. Really, I'd swear the movie was more about the adventures of Obi-Wan than it was about the fall of Anakin just from the acting alone. Of course, that's not necessarily a bad thing either.
Well regardless, it's all said and done now, for better or worse. Sorry for being so judgmental, like I say...I just think George Lucas could have given the whole thing just a wee bit more consideration and significance on a smaller level, and fit elements together better. Ehhh who knows - maybe he did and those parts were just edited out or something. My criticism is more than just dissing the movie, though, like I say...I'm also making suggestions as to what I think could've made it a more fulfilling experience for everyone. Granted, you guys are right - that's George Lucas' call to make and not mine in this instance. Yet when you look at something that you have any liking towards and are bothered by some of its downsides, there's something appeasing about voicing what bothers you about it and suggesting what you would do differently. Is it ever going to be redone with my ideas? Absolutely not...but I think there's some level of satisfaction being able to identify what bugs a person about something, and having positive words of encouragement and advice as to how it might be improved upon. I guess that's just the perfectionist in me crying out...or maybe just crying.
At any rate, thanks for the discussion, guys. I'll gladly continue a dialogue with anyone based on anything I've said, but will otherwise take my leave from the thread to allow others to post their own feelings on things without my commentary getting in the way further.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Still, the whole former friends fighting each other to the verge of death...I would think that should be a pretty big fight emotionally. It sure lasted a lot longer than the battle between Luke and Vader, and was infinitely more spectacular with all the moves they were doing and the scenery...
In defense of the final battle, though, it was emotional after Obi-Wan dealt the final blow that ended the battle. And in Episode 3's defense, I have to say I was overly impressed with Ewan McGregor's performance throughout the whole thing. Really, I'd swear the movie was more about the adventures of Obi-Wan than it was about the fall of Anakin just from the acting alone.
Of course, that's not necessarily a bad thing either.Well regardless, it's all said and done now, for better or worse. Sorry for being so judgmental, like I say...I just think George Lucas could have given the whole thing just a wee bit more consideration and significance on a smaller level, and fit elements together better. Ehhh who knows - maybe he did and those parts were just edited out or something. My criticism is more than just dissing the movie, though, like I say...I'm also making suggestions as to what I think could've made it a more fulfilling experience for everyone. Granted, you guys are right - that's George Lucas' call to make and not mine in this instance. Yet when you look at something that you have any liking towards and are bothered by some of its downsides, there's something appeasing about voicing what bothers you about it and suggesting what you would do differently. Is it ever going to be redone with my ideas? Absolutely not...but I think there's some level of satisfaction being able to identify what bugs a person about something, and having positive words of encouragement and advice as to how it might be improved upon. I guess that's just the perfectionist in me crying out...or maybe just crying.
At any rate, thanks for the discussion, guys. I'll gladly continue a dialogue with anyone based on anything I've said, but will otherwise take my leave from the thread to allow others to post their own feelings on things without my commentary getting in the way further.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Falcon,
although I poked fun at you, I don't really disagree with your opinions. I was addressing the general point of US nerds asking and expecting too much from the new movies.
And yep, I think one of the major problems with the NT is that they wasted two and a half hours in ep1, about 1h in ep 2 (which had SOME plot advancement) and had to run like hell on 3. He should have started with two, than divide ep 3 in two, pacing it better.
It is just that we expected too much and lost sight of the strengths of the series: great action, great effects (i can't complain, Aside from the weird clones, I think the movie has excellent VFX) and a couple of intangible values, like "magic" and "mythology". The later two things have suffered with the transformation from the youngsters of 70's and 80's to the contemporaneous jaded little bastards...
Delance,
i never said that. I just think that the so called gnosticism in SW is more of a footnote.
The campbell stuff can br aplyed to many comics, series, books, movies, even 24hs has somthing to do with it... The most important thing about his work is not the theological implications, but the mapping of a patern in the tales woven throughout the whole history of manking, and the connection between those patterns and our subconcious.
Maybe lucas touched some gnostic bullshit with the whole light-darkness sides of the force, and the suffering-detachment stuff. But if you want to see big deep phylophies and hate lucas because he is not a fervorous catholic, be my guest.
Lucas got caught in this crazy vision we have of Sw, and he started to think that his own work was more that what it was meant to be. HAd him remained humbler, maybe we would have liked the NT better.
although I poked fun at you, I don't really disagree with your opinions. I was addressing the general point of US nerds asking and expecting too much from the new movies.
And yep, I think one of the major problems with the NT is that they wasted two and a half hours in ep1, about 1h in ep 2 (which had SOME plot advancement) and had to run like hell on 3. He should have started with two, than divide ep 3 in two, pacing it better.
It is just that we expected too much and lost sight of the strengths of the series: great action, great effects (i can't complain, Aside from the weird clones, I think the movie has excellent VFX) and a couple of intangible values, like "magic" and "mythology". The later two things have suffered with the transformation from the youngsters of 70's and 80's to the contemporaneous jaded little bastards...
Delance,
i never said that. I just think that the so called gnosticism in SW is more of a footnote.
The campbell stuff can br aplyed to many comics, series, books, movies, even 24hs has somthing to do with it... The most important thing about his work is not the theological implications, but the mapping of a patern in the tales woven throughout the whole history of manking, and the connection between those patterns and our subconcious.
Maybe lucas touched some gnostic bullshit with the whole light-darkness sides of the force, and the suffering-detachment stuff. But if you want to see big deep phylophies and hate lucas because he is not a fervorous catholic, be my guest.
Lucas got caught in this crazy vision we have of Sw, and he started to think that his own work was more that what it was meant to be. HAd him remained humbler, maybe we would have liked the NT better.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Delance said:
I shall remember this moment: the silence, the twilight, the bowl of strawberries, the bowl of milk. Your faces in the evening light. I shall try to remember our talk. I shall carry this memory carefully in my hands as if it were a bowl brimful of fresh milk. It will be a sign to me, and a great sufficiency.