EPISODE 3 Discussion
- Thread starter Darkmage
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Dahan
Rear Admiral
TIRex said:
I agree whole heartly. We have to appreciate that there was a universe/genre created by a man who had a dream.
I have said it once and I will say it again. There are fans and there are FANS and people who expect so much from the movies or from GL. But they have to think and remember that SW back then would be so different with cinema technology and all. You would think they would use everything they had back in the 70s-80s???? I doubt that
Delance
Victory, you say?
Edfilho said:
Well, and I didn't say all the stuff you claimed I did, in case you didn’t understood it.
Edfilho said:
It is relevant to mention that the key problem of the prequels is concept that any suffering, regardless of its origin, will lead you to a dark side, so the only solution is to cut any attachments. That’s not exactly Gnostic, it’s more like Buddhist.
Another weird thing is the “trust your feelings” bit echoing Campbell’s “follow your bliss” per George Lucas. Both Sith and Jedi tells people to trust their feelings. That must have been very confusing to young Anakin.
Edfilho said:
If could be so kind as to stop making up things like that, it would be nice. I don’t hate Lucas, and not being a catholic is not a reason to hate anyone.
If you tried to mean “deep philosophies”, I didn’t claim it was deep at all, just that it was there. And it was even on the usual subtle way, since Lucas made sure to save a few moments to have Yoda make an explanatory speech about it.
BTW dark/light side is more a Taoist aspect then anything else.
I don't see the point in debating over who the movie was made for and what it's philisophical means are or whatnot. It's a starwars film for goodness sakes. The originals were practically cult films. If you saw a sequel to the Rocky Horror Picture Show, would you(aside from puking) expect it to be the best movie of the year? I mean, it's all for entertainment, not for placing you in the world of the characters. That's what books are for. Right?
TIRex
Rear Admiral
@Falcon
One other eventuality about Chewie an his ... well not verry highlevelaction fighting.
AFAIR I didn't see Chewie fighting at the front. He stayed behind together with Yoda and the other Wookie (forgot the name). Maybe he was already to old for that kind of jump 'n run fighting like the 2 other Wookies that planting charges on droid vehicles. I don't know how old wookes can get but transferd to a human he may be about the physical level of a 50 years old an those man surly can't jump around like a man half the age. And by the time of EP-4-6, well he was said to have a hard time in imperial salvery.
And I'm sure Chewie an Luke did talk about "the old friend". They had several opportunities to do so which were not on film. Between the escape from the Executor and the launch of Lando and Chewie, during the flight to Endor. Or just after the battle of Endor. Each fractions of time that where not on film.
If and/of when they talked we'll never know. But do we have to?
One other eventuality about Chewie an his ... well not verry highlevelaction fighting.
AFAIR I didn't see Chewie fighting at the front. He stayed behind together with Yoda and the other Wookie (forgot the name). Maybe he was already to old for that kind of jump 'n run fighting like the 2 other Wookies that planting charges on droid vehicles. I don't know how old wookes can get but transferd to a human he may be about the physical level of a 50 years old an those man surly can't jump around like a man half the age. And by the time of EP-4-6, well he was said to have a hard time in imperial salvery.
And I'm sure Chewie an Luke did talk about "the old friend". They had several opportunities to do so which were not on film. Between the escape from the Executor and the launch of Lando and Chewie, during the flight to Endor. Or just after the battle of Endor. Each fractions of time that where not on film.
If and/of when they talked we'll never know. But do we have to?
Edfilho
Cry some more!
BTW, Obi-Wan says "Trust your feelings". But Palpatine goes a lot further. He wants luke to be swept by his anger. It is different. And Old Ben was always a bit off the othodoxy. Not to mention that he said "Trust your feelings" after the fall of the JEdi. maybe he admited that some form of connection with one's feelings is good, after all.
Concerning Chewbacca and the explosives: is it really of ANY importance that we see one wookie attaching a bomb to a machine in ep3 and then in ep6 chewie just passes the explosives to Han? It is a big leap to think that because of that scene, chewie can't use the bombs... he might have been the one to make the damn things. Chewie was there just so we could think that was a cool scene, no need to read hidden meanings.
Concerning Chewbacca and the explosives: is it really of ANY importance that we see one wookie attaching a bomb to a machine in ep3 and then in ep6 chewie just passes the explosives to Han? It is a big leap to think that because of that scene, chewie can't use the bombs... he might have been the one to make the damn things. Chewie was there just so we could think that was a cool scene, no need to read hidden meanings.
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
To Edfilho:
Thanks for clarifying...yeah, I figured your sarcastic response was just meant as good humor. While I agree with most of what you're saying, I still just feel that George Lucas could've done a better job tying things together and writing a script that was more believable.
As it stands, I kind of laughed when Anakin fell from grace...one second he's arguing what the Jedi way is with Mace, then he lops his hand off, Mace gets electrocuted by Sidious and thrown out the shattered window, Anakin asks what he's done, and less than five seconds later, he's down on his knees pledging his allegiance to Sidious. I just couldn't buy the way it happened. And then when he tries to strangle Padme at the end...that just makes no freaking sense to me; dunno - maybe I'm just an idiot or something.
To TIRex & Edfilho:
As for the whole Chewbacca thing...yeah, that whole "charges" argument of mine was pretty dang weak in hindsight. I threw it out there to highlight my point...I just can't see the Chewie in Episode 3 being the same Chewie we all know and love from 4-6. Like I said - he's more of a side-kick there...seems like he owes some kind of life debt to Han Solo or something. In Episode 3, he seems more like an essential leader type (I'm also a bit surprised that if the Wookies were somehow defeated and brought into slavery that as a leader of the Wookies, Chewbacca would not have therefore been killed outright for the sake of making the remaining Wookies more submissive). The later movies (4-6) never really alluded to this past of Chewie that I'm aware of, which is why I think it lacks a considerable level of cohesion. Is it COMPLETELY unbelievable? No...but I think it is a pretty huge stretch, at least as I see it, as is the whole Yoda lightsaber fight scenes.
And another thing related to the whole Wookie thing...why do we never really see what happens on Kashyyyk? It's like they show us it only so long as Yoda outstays his welcome following Order 66 or whatever. Then once Yoda leaves, the battle on Kashyyyk just doesn't matter anymore.
The trouble here is that while they bridge the history gap of the Emperor, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke & Leia, and Yoda...there's inherent gaps that we're left scratching our heads over...one such one is how does Chewie go from being the Wookie eqivalent of a General to the supporting character he is as Han Solo's side-kick?
I don't know...it just still doesn't fit for me. By Episode 6, Chewie and Han are both equally surprised to see Luke's a Jedi Knight, but it seems more like they're both rolling their eyes thinking that Luke's just following his crazy roll model, Obi-Wan. You don't get the feeling that there's any kind of meaningful, noteworthy history there between Chewie and the Jedi. It just seems like they tried to overstep their bounds in Episode 3 by making a tight meeting happen between Yoda and Chewbacca that has no real connection in the movies that are supposed to take place after the event. (Again, maybe this is an assumption, but I get the idea that Yoda and the Wookies are kind of tight because he requested heading to Kashyyyk himself and alluded to the fact that he had a history with the Wookies.) I don't know...it's just one of those things that you can tell they added just for the sake of introducing another character we all knew and loved...but in the process, I think they kind of screwed up the cohesion of one idea into the next.
Of course, I wouldn't be sitting here and arguing Star Wars if I wasn't a fan. I think they definitely tried to do far too much in this Star Wars, though...and strangely, I think that's why it's been getting the great reviews - because it's so much stuff to digest that people can't objectively and analytically look at the small parts and see the underlying problems.
Another thing that was strange...the whole birth scene...did Padme just pick Leia and Luke out of a hat? It's like BAM...the guy comes out - Luke. BAM, the girl comes out - Leia. Ummmm....what?!
Ehhh still...considering her name was Padme, she could've done a lot worse with the names. 
But wasn't there some kind of reason for those names or something? And how about that medical robot who says Padme's dying and it can't really figure out why...we're talking about an age with fully-functional artificial limbs and all this fancy technology...and you don't have any idea at all? Someone give that malfunctioning droid a memory wipe!
As for me not appreciating the movie as much as I probably "should" or "am meant to"...were the special effects superior to 4-6? Totally. But 4-6 were still better written and better performed, generally speaking - from the dialogue, to the emotion, to the spirit and zeal behind the battles. I could've done fine with half the special effects in Episode 3 and twice the storyline with the holes plugged in for better cohesion.
I don't think I'm one of these malcontent, maladjusted prepubescent twerps (well, at least that last adjective is false!) who wants and demands everything because everything is cool. Hey, if Episode 3 was nothing but maybe one lightsaber battle, a couple blaster battles, one space battle, and the rest of it was full of engaging dialogue, romance, tragedy, faith, hope like the originals, I think it would have been a more fulfilling experience - both for guys like me as well as guys like you who say you liked it as it was. I'm not looking for over-the-top special effects and never-ending battles...if it's written well enough that you can value and appreciate shorter battle scenes, to me that makes for a better story.
Was it good? Sure. But it could have been truly phenomenal with a better script, I think. Like I said...the only scene I could really sense any seemingly real emotion in whatsoever was the last words exchanged between Obi-Wan and Anakin...and without Ewan McGregor's acting (which again, I have to say I was pretty pleased with throughout) and the fact that they made Hayden Christensen's character completely helpless with three limbs hacked off and burning alive...I'm not even sure this scene would have done it for me.
The fact remains that I haven't raised my own personal bar...I just think Lucas has lowered his by throwing in enough special effects in the hopes of glazing over the imperfections of the storyline. The honest truth is that I can sit down right now and watch Episodes 4-6 and have one hell of a good fun time because while the special effects were lacking by today's standards, the stories were brilliant and intricate. Episodes 1-3 just came off as an eye-candy experience completely devoid of realistic, heartfelt emotion, fun sarcastic dialogue, and thought-provoking memories. Maybe part of the magic isn't there because it's a prequel...but I think it's more than that. The stories themselves just felt as hollow as most of the detached Jedi in them.
Most of us loved the characters from the original movies. How many from the newer ones did you truly fall as equally in love with? MAYBE Obi-Wan by the end of Episode 3, but that's it. Everything about Episodes 1-3 just felt empty underneath all the glitter.
I don't know...that's just the way I felt about it - maybe I'm wrong...
- FireFalcon ~};^
Thanks for clarifying...yeah, I figured your sarcastic response was just meant as good humor. While I agree with most of what you're saying, I still just feel that George Lucas could've done a better job tying things together and writing a script that was more believable.
As it stands, I kind of laughed when Anakin fell from grace...one second he's arguing what the Jedi way is with Mace, then he lops his hand off, Mace gets electrocuted by Sidious and thrown out the shattered window, Anakin asks what he's done, and less than five seconds later, he's down on his knees pledging his allegiance to Sidious. I just couldn't buy the way it happened. And then when he tries to strangle Padme at the end...that just makes no freaking sense to me; dunno - maybe I'm just an idiot or something.
To TIRex & Edfilho:
As for the whole Chewbacca thing...yeah, that whole "charges" argument of mine was pretty dang weak in hindsight. I threw it out there to highlight my point...I just can't see the Chewie in Episode 3 being the same Chewie we all know and love from 4-6. Like I said - he's more of a side-kick there...seems like he owes some kind of life debt to Han Solo or something. In Episode 3, he seems more like an essential leader type (I'm also a bit surprised that if the Wookies were somehow defeated and brought into slavery that as a leader of the Wookies, Chewbacca would not have therefore been killed outright for the sake of making the remaining Wookies more submissive). The later movies (4-6) never really alluded to this past of Chewie that I'm aware of, which is why I think it lacks a considerable level of cohesion. Is it COMPLETELY unbelievable? No...but I think it is a pretty huge stretch, at least as I see it, as is the whole Yoda lightsaber fight scenes.
And another thing related to the whole Wookie thing...why do we never really see what happens on Kashyyyk? It's like they show us it only so long as Yoda outstays his welcome following Order 66 or whatever. Then once Yoda leaves, the battle on Kashyyyk just doesn't matter anymore.
The trouble here is that while they bridge the history gap of the Emperor, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke & Leia, and Yoda...there's inherent gaps that we're left scratching our heads over...one such one is how does Chewie go from being the Wookie eqivalent of a General to the supporting character he is as Han Solo's side-kick?
I don't know...it just still doesn't fit for me. By Episode 6, Chewie and Han are both equally surprised to see Luke's a Jedi Knight, but it seems more like they're both rolling their eyes thinking that Luke's just following his crazy roll model, Obi-Wan. You don't get the feeling that there's any kind of meaningful, noteworthy history there between Chewie and the Jedi. It just seems like they tried to overstep their bounds in Episode 3 by making a tight meeting happen between Yoda and Chewbacca that has no real connection in the movies that are supposed to take place after the event. (Again, maybe this is an assumption, but I get the idea that Yoda and the Wookies are kind of tight because he requested heading to Kashyyyk himself and alluded to the fact that he had a history with the Wookies.) I don't know...it's just one of those things that you can tell they added just for the sake of introducing another character we all knew and loved...but in the process, I think they kind of screwed up the cohesion of one idea into the next.
Of course, I wouldn't be sitting here and arguing Star Wars if I wasn't a fan. I think they definitely tried to do far too much in this Star Wars, though...and strangely, I think that's why it's been getting the great reviews - because it's so much stuff to digest that people can't objectively and analytically look at the small parts and see the underlying problems.
Another thing that was strange...the whole birth scene...did Padme just pick Leia and Luke out of a hat? It's like BAM...the guy comes out - Luke. BAM, the girl comes out - Leia. Ummmm....what?!
Ehhh still...considering her name was Padme, she could've done a lot worse with the names. But wasn't there some kind of reason for those names or something? And how about that medical robot who says Padme's dying and it can't really figure out why...we're talking about an age with fully-functional artificial limbs and all this fancy technology...and you don't have any idea at all? Someone give that malfunctioning droid a memory wipe! As for me not appreciating the movie as much as I probably "should" or "am meant to"...were the special effects superior to 4-6? Totally. But 4-6 were still better written and better performed, generally speaking - from the dialogue, to the emotion, to the spirit and zeal behind the battles. I could've done fine with half the special effects in Episode 3 and twice the storyline with the holes plugged in for better cohesion.
I don't think I'm one of these malcontent, maladjusted prepubescent twerps (well, at least that last adjective is false!) who wants and demands everything because everything is cool. Hey, if Episode 3 was nothing but maybe one lightsaber battle, a couple blaster battles, one space battle, and the rest of it was full of engaging dialogue, romance, tragedy, faith, hope like the originals, I think it would have been a more fulfilling experience - both for guys like me as well as guys like you who say you liked it as it was. I'm not looking for over-the-top special effects and never-ending battles...if it's written well enough that you can value and appreciate shorter battle scenes, to me that makes for a better story.
Was it good? Sure. But it could have been truly phenomenal with a better script, I think. Like I said...the only scene I could really sense any seemingly real emotion in whatsoever was the last words exchanged between Obi-Wan and Anakin...and without Ewan McGregor's acting (which again, I have to say I was pretty pleased with throughout) and the fact that they made Hayden Christensen's character completely helpless with three limbs hacked off and burning alive...I'm not even sure this scene would have done it for me.
The fact remains that I haven't raised my own personal bar...I just think Lucas has lowered his by throwing in enough special effects in the hopes of glazing over the imperfections of the storyline. The honest truth is that I can sit down right now and watch Episodes 4-6 and have one hell of a good fun time because while the special effects were lacking by today's standards, the stories were brilliant and intricate. Episodes 1-3 just came off as an eye-candy experience completely devoid of realistic, heartfelt emotion, fun sarcastic dialogue, and thought-provoking memories. Maybe part of the magic isn't there because it's a prequel...but I think it's more than that. The stories themselves just felt as hollow as most of the detached Jedi in them.
Most of us loved the characters from the original movies. How many from the newer ones did you truly fall as equally in love with? MAYBE Obi-Wan by the end of Episode 3, but that's it. Everything about Episodes 1-3 just felt empty underneath all the glitter.
I don't know...that's just the way I felt about it - maybe I'm wrong...
- FireFalcon ~};^
TIRex
Rear Admiral
About Padmé's death.
A user from my main forum posted a interesting therory.
Sidious told Anakin that an ancinet Sith-Lord discoverd the power to save lives. Since this is a dark power used by the Sith it maybe posissibel that for saving Vaders live Sidious has to reach out with the force and take the live energy, the will to survive of someone who loves Vader. Padmé.
Sounds plausible to me. Take a live to save another. No Jedi would ever do that.
A user from my main forum posted a interesting therory.
Sidious told Anakin that an ancinet Sith-Lord discoverd the power to save lives. Since this is a dark power used by the Sith it maybe posissibel that for saving Vaders live Sidious has to reach out with the force and take the live energy, the will to survive of someone who loves Vader. Padmé.
Sounds plausible to me. Take a live to save another. No Jedi would ever do that.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
TIRex said:
That doesn't make any sense for two reasons.
1.) Padme wouldn't love Vader in the same way. Yeah, she'd still have hope he'd turn back. But considering the moral purity and optimism that her character embodied and passed onto her children, theres no way in hell she'd want to stay with someone who hacks up kids and has yellow eyes.
2.) Padme's death was an alagorical treatment of Greek tragedy. Where greater forces converge on people and screw up people's lives terribly - Padme's death was meant to be the highest form of tragedy.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Eh, Padme's death was just supposed to be a somewhat-overdramatic way of saying that Anakin shocked her to the point where she didn't want to live. Just think of it as a suicide of some sort.
...And of course, it also added a nice sense of irony to the story, because it turned out that had Anakin ignored his dreams, they wouldn't have come true. Self-fulfilling prophecies are fun.
...And of course, it also added a nice sense of irony to the story, because it turned out that had Anakin ignored his dreams, they wouldn't have come true. Self-fulfilling prophecies are fun.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
Theres a big difference between suicide and losing the will to live - One is action and the other is inaction.
(Today's deep thought: Why is it that emotion for Jedi (especially in the prequels) is played up as a terrible thing - hate and fear lead to the dark side, true love brings doom - yet Obi-Wan admits to loving Anakin like a brother. I feel like theres some kind of statement made in that - but I don't know what it is.)
(Today's deep thought: Why is it that emotion for Jedi (especially in the prequels) is played up as a terrible thing - hate and fear lead to the dark side, true love brings doom - yet Obi-Wan admits to loving Anakin like a brother. I feel like theres some kind of statement made in that - but I don't know what it is.)
X_FIREFALCON
Spaceman
Good commentary and discussion, guys.
Yeah, the whole Padme dying scene is played as the whole "she lost the will to live" type of thing...yet, I'm still not sure I buy that necessarily. I never got the feeling in Episodes 2 & 3 that she cared as much for Anakin as he supposedly did for her...you know...up to that whole Force choke scene. The whole time, Anakin pursued Padme, not vice-versa...and she was intent on keeping the relationship a secret when he wasn't afraid of telling the world.
Quarto, good point....if Anakin didn't act on the future he saw, he wouldn't have doomed the present fate of himself and Padme. Self-fulfilling prophecy indeed. With the story as it is, though, I wonder why Vader would remain so loyal to Sidious. Having lost everything, wouldn't he instead just opt to throw it all away, either by challenging Sidious or taking his own life? Or are we led to believe he is wholly committed to bringing this whole imperial order and "peace" to the universe? If that's the case, then Episodes 1-3 did a bit of a bad job demonstrating his allegiance to these ideals, I think. He was depicted as a character who followed his own heart and often times cared more for himself and those closest to him than the general masses. He'd slay Jedi and Tusken raiders (sand people) left and right without thinking twice. He killed Darth Tyranus in cold blood after he had disarmed him. In Episode 2, Obi-Wan is only able to prevent him from going back for Padme after asking him what she would do (and thus expect him to do) in that circumstance. This shows me he cares nothing for the larger picture, but rather his own slice of heaven. And when he loses that slice, I don't understand why he would want to remain a submissive dog under Sidious. Maybe Sidious used an old Sith mind trick on him or something, eh?
Good philosophical point. Maybe it's safe to say that Obi-Wan, like Qui-Gon & Anakin, was a bit of a rebel Jedi-wise? You definitely get the idea that Obi-Wan doesn't wish to fight Anakin...even when they set down on that lava planet - Safari, Mustafari, or whatever it was called - he waits to see if Padme can talk him down first, then tries to talk him down himself, rather than just charging in with his lightsaber right off the bat. And then at the end, I kind of figured that Obi-Wan couldn't kill him simply because he did, in fact, love him as a brother. From playing the Episode III: Revenge of the Sith game, the last level branches off into two directions - one that you play as Obi-Wan that ends with that final slash that so badly disfigures Anakin...and another that you play as Anakin that ends with him successfully leaping over Obi-Wan and killing him from behind. This leads me to believe, at least to an extent, that it came down to it being one of them or the other. Such vengeance and hatred filled Anakin's heart that Obi-Wan knew he would not spare him if the situation was switched...but he would spare Anakin, perhaps to finally stop him and give him one last chance for redemption, which he didn't take (and hey - would we if we were that mangled, burning mess?!).
Attachment is indeed discouraged among the Jedi, but ironically their methods of teaching make it difficult to avoid personal attachments. While they discourage everything else, one student is always assigned to only one master. It's inevitable that a bond would form between the two...we see this bond between Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan & Anakin, Obi-Wan & Luke (and later Yoda & Luke)...
I guess it's one of those strange dichotomies based on a simple principle. I'm putting my own spin on things here, but I believe that the Jedi simply warn that a strong connection to someone can lead to fear of losing them, which can lead to desperation to change the inevitable, which risks destroying one's objectivity, perspective, and innocence. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker were different because they did have strong feelings for others (they both did for Anakin Skywalker, at any rate), but they controlled that emotion rather than letting the emotion control them. This is where Anakin came up short in his fall...and ironically, it's also the same thing that redeemed him when he saw his son suffering at the hands of Sidious all those years later and illogically sacrificed his own life to finally destroy the Sith in one fantastic moment. They were acts of passion - both for bad and good - that, at least in my mind, brought some final balance to the Force as in this prophecy.
Anakin is, I think, the strongest of the Jedi and/or Sith because he is a free spirit who gives himself wholeheartedly to his emotion, and that emotional impulse turns him into a vicious opponent for whoever is in his path at that point.
Luke and Obi-Wan differ because while they are swayed and moved by their emotions, they get to that point where they have a choice to go all the way or to stop themselves and their enemy in their tracks and offer a truce, redemption, or whatever, given the right set of circumstances. We see Obi-Wan do this when he doesn't outright kill Anakin's crippled body, or Luke after he slices off Vader's blade hand in RotJ. Both of them, I think, cling to this hope that Anakin will listen to reason and make the right choice eventually, which is why they choose to spare him. Meanwhile Windu refused to spare Sidious, I think, because the Sith Lord had no reason for his own redemption and was never aligned with the forces of good that we're aware of (he made his choice without the passionate impulses that drove Anakin into flip-flopping sides), and was thus beyond saving.
That's my take on things anyway...open for discussion at anyone's discretion.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Yeah, the whole Padme dying scene is played as the whole "she lost the will to live" type of thing...yet, I'm still not sure I buy that necessarily. I never got the feeling in Episodes 2 & 3 that she cared as much for Anakin as he supposedly did for her...you know...up to that whole Force choke scene.
The whole time, Anakin pursued Padme, not vice-versa...and she was intent on keeping the relationship a secret when he wasn't afraid of telling the world.Quarto, good point....if Anakin didn't act on the future he saw, he wouldn't have doomed the present fate of himself and Padme. Self-fulfilling prophecy indeed. With the story as it is, though, I wonder why Vader would remain so loyal to Sidious. Having lost everything, wouldn't he instead just opt to throw it all away, either by challenging Sidious or taking his own life? Or are we led to believe he is wholly committed to bringing this whole imperial order and "peace" to the universe? If that's the case, then Episodes 1-3 did a bit of a bad job demonstrating his allegiance to these ideals, I think. He was depicted as a character who followed his own heart and often times cared more for himself and those closest to him than the general masses. He'd slay Jedi and Tusken raiders (sand people) left and right without thinking twice. He killed Darth Tyranus in cold blood after he had disarmed him. In Episode 2, Obi-Wan is only able to prevent him from going back for Padme after asking him what she would do (and thus expect him to do) in that circumstance. This shows me he cares nothing for the larger picture, but rather his own slice of heaven. And when he loses that slice, I don't understand why he would want to remain a submissive dog under Sidious. Maybe Sidious used an old Sith mind trick on him or something, eh?
LeHah said:
Good philosophical point. Maybe it's safe to say that Obi-Wan, like Qui-Gon & Anakin, was a bit of a rebel Jedi-wise? You definitely get the idea that Obi-Wan doesn't wish to fight Anakin...even when they set down on that lava planet - Safari, Mustafari, or whatever it was called - he waits to see if Padme can talk him down first, then tries to talk him down himself, rather than just charging in with his lightsaber right off the bat. And then at the end, I kind of figured that Obi-Wan couldn't kill him simply because he did, in fact, love him as a brother. From playing the Episode III: Revenge of the Sith game, the last level branches off into two directions - one that you play as Obi-Wan that ends with that final slash that so badly disfigures Anakin...and another that you play as Anakin that ends with him successfully leaping over Obi-Wan and killing him from behind. This leads me to believe, at least to an extent, that it came down to it being one of them or the other. Such vengeance and hatred filled Anakin's heart that Obi-Wan knew he would not spare him if the situation was switched...but he would spare Anakin, perhaps to finally stop him and give him one last chance for redemption, which he didn't take (and hey - would we if we were that mangled, burning mess?!).
Attachment is indeed discouraged among the Jedi, but ironically their methods of teaching make it difficult to avoid personal attachments. While they discourage everything else, one student is always assigned to only one master. It's inevitable that a bond would form between the two...we see this bond between Qui-Gon & Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan & Anakin, Obi-Wan & Luke (and later Yoda & Luke)...
I guess it's one of those strange dichotomies based on a simple principle. I'm putting my own spin on things here, but I believe that the Jedi simply warn that a strong connection to someone can lead to fear of losing them, which can lead to desperation to change the inevitable, which risks destroying one's objectivity, perspective, and innocence. Obi-Wan Kenobi and Luke Skywalker were different because they did have strong feelings for others (they both did for Anakin Skywalker, at any rate), but they controlled that emotion rather than letting the emotion control them. This is where Anakin came up short in his fall...and ironically, it's also the same thing that redeemed him when he saw his son suffering at the hands of Sidious all those years later and illogically sacrificed his own life to finally destroy the Sith in one fantastic moment. They were acts of passion - both for bad and good - that, at least in my mind, brought some final balance to the Force as in this prophecy.
Anakin is, I think, the strongest of the Jedi and/or Sith because he is a free spirit who gives himself wholeheartedly to his emotion, and that emotional impulse turns him into a vicious opponent for whoever is in his path at that point.
Luke and Obi-Wan differ because while they are swayed and moved by their emotions, they get to that point where they have a choice to go all the way or to stop themselves and their enemy in their tracks and offer a truce, redemption, or whatever, given the right set of circumstances. We see Obi-Wan do this when he doesn't outright kill Anakin's crippled body, or Luke after he slices off Vader's blade hand in RotJ. Both of them, I think, cling to this hope that Anakin will listen to reason and make the right choice eventually, which is why they choose to spare him. Meanwhile Windu refused to spare Sidious, I think, because the Sith Lord had no reason for his own redemption and was never aligned with the forces of good that we're aware of (he made his choice without the passionate impulses that drove Anakin into flip-flopping sides), and was thus beyond saving.
That's my take on things anyway...open for discussion at anyone's discretion.
- FireFalcon ~};^
Delance
Victory, you say?
LeHah said:
Perhaps the Jedi could be more successful on their assassination attempts if they actually put a little emotion on them. By the standards of EP3, they are as bad as that Zan from EP2.
LeHah said:
What other character says that on EP2?
LeHah said:
(Maybe George Lucas is contradictory and have little idea about what he’s talking about. Obi-Wan says only deals with absolutes, then calls Palpatine evil, only to be replied that evil is a point of view. Who deals with absolutes and who’s the Sith on that scene is up for grabs.)
Edfilho said:
Nah, it's just gibberish really. No deep stuff in there. The obsession with feelings is not the best part of Star Wars. It makes no sense that both Jedi and Sith say the VERY SAME THING. Not that the Jedi supposed 'orthodoxy' was not very good anyway. Luke even mirrors Anakin having second-thought when the Jedi tell them to kill the Sith. But of course Luke had more reason to spare Vader, being his father and all. And I agree with you on that wookies can use explosives. The ROTJ means nothing, and Chewbacca can pilot and fix complex starships.
LeHah
212 Squadron - "The Old Man's Eyes And Ears"
X_FIREFALCON said:
Its one of those ideas that totally suits the character and the needs of the story - but is acted and directed so terribly, that it works in no possible way.
Oopa. Oopa. Oopa.
X_FIREFALCON said:
Yoda takes note of Obi-Wan's seemingly rebellious nature at the end of Phantom Menace, though Obi-Wan is the odd man out in the saga. Qui-Gon didn't care for the Council, Dooku left the order, Anakin betrayed everyone and Luke was basicly left blowing in the wind with minimal training and no one to guide him most of the time. Obi-Wan would be the "straight man" if this were a comedy.
A lot of people who try to read deeply into the saga totally misinterpret Obi-Wan's role in an epic. Most see him as having hubris - that the whole saga is his fault for failing to train Anakin - when in fact, it's Qui-Gon's. Obi-Wan didn't want to have anything to do with the boy until Qui-Gon died; not to mention the fact that Anakin was doomed to his fate from day one, no matter the teacher.
X_FIREFALCON said:
Mustafaar is the spelling, I believe. (Was this also the planet named in that Episode III script-fake from around 1984?)
Delance said:
I'm stretching a bit here - but Jedi by their very definition would not assassinate. They're more like Samurai - which were honor bound soldiers - than like Ninja - who were assassins, spies, hijackers who worked for the Lord.
Delance said:
Obi-Wan says it again in Episode IV.
Delance said:
George Lucas is many things - a bad writer, an undertalented director, a pompous jerk perhaps - but he certainly understands the mythology of what he's presenting, even in the abstract and mangled form it is.
The whole "dealing in absolutes" is certainly very buddhist - I think thats almost a direct quote of a text, in fact - which ties in nicely with the largely zen teachings in ESB, but doesn't seem to mesh especially well with the "spiritual politics" presented in Episode I and II.
That is to say the very cult like approach to the order - bringing only the youngest of children to be taught, seperation from parents, emotionally distant father-figures, very controlling enviroments - evidently was the major issue to the Jedi. Does this infer that Yoda and Obi-Wan learned from their mistakes while in hiding between the Prequels and the OT? I can't say but certain things are obvious:
*Obi-Wan is the poster child for Jedis. Despite his rather beleaguered, "woe is me" attitude, he did more than what anyone else in the order did. He not only survived a confrontation with Anakin, but he also followed his own path without totally ignoring his friends within the Order.
And consider the fact that he stayed his hand at killing Anakin by the lava bed. While that might've been different if Obi-Wan had known Palpatine was going to show up and Frankenstein the guy, the fact that he had such pity to not deal a killing blow echo what Anakin had screamed at Mace Windu as justification of not killing Palpatine outright.
(Also, in retrospect, Alec Guiness' delivery of "Oh, I'm not dead. Not yet." is quite remarkable, now that we know Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon converse in the 20 years between the two trilogies. Watch his eyes when he says that line).
*Yoda was a major corrupting influence within the order. The fact that he perpetuated mass training of Jedis, the fact that basicly EVERY passion a person has is a path to the Dark Side and, hell, the fact that he used a lightsaber could even be chalked up to his self-centered ego. (The order is incredibly arrogant. What kind of saviors of justice allow slavery to exist unless it suits their purpose?)
*Anyone else find it befitting that the Jedi lived in this giant white spire above everyone else in the galaxy's captial - only to have two of the surviving members living either in a wasteland or a swamp?
(I realize I may be reading too much into this, but, hell, its fun to think some of this is what Lucas intended.)
Edfilho
Cry some more!
Interesting, I always confronted obi-wan's apparent rebelliousness in the end of TPM with his totally goody two shoes attitude in the later 2 movies. I guess, even though he is kind ironic/sarcastic, ultimatelly, he is quite straight and narrow in his path. He is easily my favourite character in the prequels, and in the original ones he is second, after Han.
And he just kicks ass in the prequels. He might not be the flashiest jedi, but he surelly gets the job done.
And he just kicks ass in the prequels. He might not be the flashiest jedi, but he surelly gets the job done.
Maslas
Rear Admiral
Cool down...
Common guys it was just a movie, I mean there is no reason look for such details for the roles and if Mace died well or not.......... What i am trying to say is that the movie was on a general view very well done and I am sure that Lucas made it for the funs and didn't try to make an oscar movie this time! I believe that this first trilogy closed in a very nice way.....in other words i liked this last episode
Please don't let me be missunderstood..... I still believe that the old trilogy was lot better than this one because for then it was something realy different and this continues up to our days but think it the other way upside down what a child of the age of 17 (that he is not a fun) would realy say about the old trilogy? "that it sucks..." if you see my point!
Common guys it was just a movie, I mean there is no reason look for such details for the roles and if Mace died well or not.......... What i am trying to say is that the movie was on a general view very well done and I am sure that Lucas made it for the funs and didn't try to make an oscar movie this time! I believe that this first trilogy closed in a very nice way.....in other words i liked this last episode
Please don't let me be missunderstood..... I still believe that the old trilogy was lot better than this one because for then it was something realy different and this continues up to our days but think it the other way upside down what a child of the age of 17 (that he is not a fun) would realy say about the old trilogy? "that it sucks..." if you see my point!
Maslas said:
I am 17 and I saw The original trilogy (I got the new-ish DVD version) after seeing episodes 1 and 2 and I have to say that I didn't think it sucked. In fact I thought the exact opposite: it was brilliant.
The interesting thing is though, while most people disliked episodes 1 and 2, I actually enjoyed them because these were my first Star Wars experiences and I didn't know any better. Everyone else was comparing the new trilogy to the old one, but I couldn't do that so I couldn't see what all the fuss was about at first.
cff said:
Based on the fact that Mace Windu effectively beat Palpatine, while Yoda couldn't, would suggest that Mace is stronger than Yoda. But I don't think you can base someone's strength just on these two fights. That's like saying the world number one boxer is in fact weaker than the person ranked 20 because he had a bad day and lost to the 21st ranked boxer, when he usually wins all his matches.
Also, a similar argument can be used on Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan lost twice against Dooku, but Anakin managed to beat him. However, later on, Obi-Wan manages to defeat Anakin, which suggests he is the stronger jedi. Despite the outcome of the fights, I still think Yoda's vast knowledge of the force makes him the strongest jedi. At least that is probably what we are supposed to believe.