Dreadnougts

[Bandit LOAF]

Another factor to consider when comparing the fighter storage capacity of carriers in 2654 to those of later is the armaments. Note that a fighter in Wing Commander 3, 4 or Prophecy may carry as many as ten times as many missiles per mission than a fighter in Wing Commander 1 or 2. To be able to sustain an equal fighting force capable of sustaning the same amount of time in the field, the missile stores aboard the later carriers must be significantly higher -- and the support crews and vehicles to load these missiles must be similarly multiplied if you wish to be able to scramble fighters as quickly.

Consider also that the fighter capacity has never been given by era -- and that in reality eras are not as clearcut as we assume them to be -- the Midway, for example, carries at least one squadron of significantly larger HF-66 Thunderbolts.

(As a sidebar, the reason the ships are suddenly smaller in Prophecy is because the designers realized that in the past when they said meters, they meant feet. Compare the size of the ships in WC3's video sequences to the size the manuals claim they are...).

Look at these ratios of crewmen to pilots. Please note that it *does* discout the science and marine divisions of the Midway... note the trend.

Bengal: 6.24:1
Vesuvius: 19.5:1
Midway: 23:1

I believe there is definately some confusion regarding what the different carrier classes mean... the 'heavy' is a modified. In the case discussed below, Heavy Fleet Carriers -- a specific type of Fleet Carrier -- carry Vampires and such. Heavy Strike Carriers are a different type of ship entirely... saying that because both have the designation 'heavy' means that they are the same is like saying that a small car is the same as a small truck. Quarto is right regarding the Lexington, though, and I can't believe I missed that. To drive home a point though, it does not carry more than one Wing

Quarto brought up the question of wings... we know which ships carry more than one wing (a wing is about 100 fighters... can be more or less, in a functional fighting group) because we are told so. The WCIV novel tells us that the Vesuvius carries four wigns of fighters and Prophecy tells us that the Midway carries three. The Concordia, Tiger's Claw and others have only one -- usually evident by the fact that they have only one Wing Commander.

We know that the Eisen must have more than one wing because it transfers one (the Wolf Pack) to the Midway and *then* jumps ahead of us to continue the fight. This would be suicide without fighters.

Regarding the Gettysburg class cruisers, we learn (in Super Wing Commander) that they are larger than the Tiger's Claw -- and that Tolwyn has (at least for a time) made one (the Austin) the bearer of his flag. This indicates, to me, that they are cruisers along the lines of the Concordia SuperCruisers... veritable space battleships.

Note that the size difference between the Ranger and the Concordia is 260m/46 tonnes, wheras the difference between the Bengals is 65m/25 tonnes... not similar in the least.

There is also confusion regarding flight decks. You are half correct to assume that carriers do not require a flight deck... unfortunately you will have a very difficult time recovering your fighters.

The large, forward bay on the Tiger's Claw is primarily for landing -- the actual take-off's occur in the launch tubes (like those on TCS Midway), which are located in the 'wings' of the ship. Actually, the Bengal is a veritable Swiss Army Knife of options... it has two catapults on the main deck, as well as launch tubes and small bays in the 'wings' (implied in WC1, seen in WCA). Some ships (like the Confederation class dreadnought and the various flythrough carriers) have the landing area and the launch catapults in the same place.

Now, before anyone yells, I am aware both that a catapult is *not* required for takeoff (a la the WC4 novel) and that fighters can go dead in space and be tractored back (a la End Run). Both of these situations are unusual, difficult, dangerous and time-consuming.

Please note that the 'fly through' bays are *not* as dangerous as you've pointed out... the Ranger, Concordia and Vesuvius class ships do, indeed, have elevators and keep the majority of their fighters below deck (WC4 novel). Those on-deck are either being repaired (since the repair cubbies are on-deck) or in ready-5 position.

Further, the flight deck *can* be disabled by a fighter attack -- simply the loss of the catapults or similar machinery (WC4 novel, again) will disable a carrier's ability to launch fighters.

A note, while Wing Commander 3 was very exciting and such, at the outset the Victory was technically still assigned to the rear (if you'll recall, Blair was rather unhappy because of this). I suppose most of the fleet had been replaced due to combat depletion before the end of the war -- but the Ranger class ships had been moved to the rear mid-war, and only reappeared when the Confederation could no longer produce a steady stream of carriers for forward duties circa WC3.

To note, the TCS Victory herself (not specifically the oldest ship in the fleet -- just an old ship) entered service in 2634.

The Confederation didn't really 'sell' capital ships to the Border Worlds... they've always been charged with their defense. The United States might use a Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier to defend Kuwait, but they would never, ever give away or sell one. (Yes, Escort Carriers -- converted transports -- were sold to the Landreich and loaned to the Border Worlds).

For Shane, a list of the different Wing Commander carriers...

Concordia class Fleet Carriers -
TCS Ark Royal, TCS Armageddon, TCS Bradshaw, TCS Concordia, TCS Euralius, TCS Freedom, TCS Hermes, TCS Invincible, TCS Kalamazoo, TCS Kennedy, TCS Kinney, TCS Kirsk, TCS Lexington (CV-44), TCS Leyte Gulf, TCS Liberty, TCS Lincoln, TCS Moskva, TCS Petrov, TCS Princeton (CV-48), TCS Saratoga, TCS Verdun, TCS Viking, TCS Viper, TCS Washington, TCS Winterrowd.

Bengal class Heavy Strike Carriers -
TCS Beacontree, TCS Bengal, TCS Eagle's Talon, TCS Exeter, TCS Kipling, TCS Kyoto, TCS Tiger's Claw (CV-07), TCS Trafalgar, TCS Wolfhound

Escort Carriers (Type I) -
TCS Crete. TCS Enigma, TCS Gallipoli, TCS Iwo Jima, TCS Khorsan, TCS Normandy (CVE-6), TCS Saipan, TCS Sevastopol (CVE-8), TCS Tarawa (CVE-7), TCS Wake.

Escort Carriers (Type II) -
TCS Eagle

Veldor class Fleet Carriers -
D645_687G, TCS Forgen, TCS Kaitlin, TCS Katreed, TCS Stryker, TCS Veldor, TCS Whatley, TCS Zarkowsky

Patrol Carriers -
TCS Horus

Lexington class Heavy Carriers -
TCS Lexington

Midway class Heavy Fleet Carriers -
TCS Midway (CVX-1), TCS Mistral Sea (CVX-2)

Ranger class Light Carriers -
TCS Ranger, TCS Kiev, TCS Victory (CV-40)

Heavy Fleet Carriers (Pre-War) -
TCS Antilles, TCS Coral Sea, TCS Soryu

Attack Carriers -
TCS Trafalgar

Vesuvius class Heavy Fleet Carriers -
TCS Eisen, TCS McKinley, TCS Mount St. Helens (CV-71), TCS Vesuvius (CV-70)

And for Quarto, the various known fighter designations...

Old Numbering System
CF-105 Scimitar class Medium Fighter
CF-117 Rapier class Medium Fighter
CF-131 Broadsword class Heavy Bomber/Patrol Craft
CF-133 Assault Shuttle

Fighters - Current Numbering System
F-44 Rapier II class Medium Attack Fighter
F-54 Epee class Light Attack Fighter
F-57 Sabre class Heavy Attack Fighter
P-64 Ferret class Patrol Fighter
HF-66 Thunderbolt VII class Heavy Fighter
F/A-76 Longbow class Torpedo Bomber
F-86 Hellcat class Medium Fighter
F-103 Excalibur class Heavy Space/Atmospheric Fighter/Bomber
F-104 Bearcat class Heavy Fighter
F/A-105 Tigershark class Multi-Role Fighter
F-106 Piranha class Scout Fighter
F-108 Panther class Space Superiority Fighter (class B)
F-109 Vampire class Space Superiority Fighter (class A)
F-110 Wasp class Interceptor

Attack Craft - Current Numbering System
A-17 Broadsword class Heavy Bomber/Patrol Craft
A-18 Crossbow class Bomber

Bombers - Current Numbering System
TB-80 Devestator class Torpedo Bomber (class A)
TB-81 Shrike class Torpedo Bomber (class B)

Ships - Future Numbering System
ML1b Duress class Light Fighter
ML2b Faldari class Medium Fighter
ML3b Freij class Heavy Fighter
MCOS Veldor class Carrier
MDRE Yackard class Dreadnought


------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

LOAF's Merry Guild

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

 

[Shane]

And I thought I was verbose. Thanks for the info. I'll resist the temptation to ask you for the sources

Really, I don't need them, but on a more serious note, how good a resource on stuff like this is the TC Handbook? My movie bias has kept me from buying it

but I think I may be missing out on a cool reference source. A few of those classes I don't recognize and therefore a couple of the ship names are new to me. I assuming the book might fill a few blanks in. Read all the novels, played all the games, except SWC, so I'm guessing that's where my defeciency lies. At least one of them

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited July 27, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Holy crap! That's gotta be the most informative post in the history of this chatzone

.

Hmm, armament. Yes, I suppose they do carry a lot more of it

. Though one could of course argue that it has also shrunk.

The Midway carries Thunderbolts?!

Feet and metres... eesh

. But indeed, I always wondered about how the tiny little Ferret was supposed to be 12 metres.

Hmm, so does that mean that we have to convert all the pre-WCP ship lengths to metres, or is it assumed that even if it's a mistake, it's still canon?
You know, I bet you there's an explanation like that for the jump in armour between WC2 and WC3

.

Those ratios are disturbing.

Oh, a (unrelated to this discussion) note for you, LOAF. I was just looking at the Timeline, and I found a mistake:
"1944.296-.299 The Battle of Leyte Gulf. An ancestor of Commodore Polowski's helmsman at the Battle of Terra commands an American cruiser. "
As I recall, Americans won at Leyte. In FA, the helmsman says "we should have won that day". Therefore, s/he must have commanded a Japanese cruiser.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Yes, I do know that heavy strike carriers are different to heavy fleet carriers. At the same time though, they are pretty darned heavy

. Oh, by the way, why are you calling the Midway and Vesuvius classes heavy fleet carriers? As far as I know, the Vesuvius is a supercarrier, and the Midway is a megacarrier. Or at least, that's what the ships database says.
Also, how is it that you determine what class the WC1/2 carriers (Kirsk, Kyoto, Winterrowd) are?

Wings... now I am confused

. I was under the impression that the Midway has three squadrons, not three wings. I mean, why would they call a wing a squadron?
Also, note that Angel's title was actually Commander Flight Group, not Wing Commander (yes, I know the books say otherwise, but the game does take precedence). That sounds more similar to CAG than to WC.

Size difference between Conc and Ranger... I was talking about the Concordia class not the TCS Concordia. Dammit, too many Concordias

.

Oh, and I did say runways, not flight decks (at least in that part of the post). I.e., the part outside the hangar, not inside. And in WC1/2, fighters never even touch the external parts of the runways.

Re: Ship sales
I did say that this isn't official fiction

. My explanation is that the two carriers were badly damaged, and were going to be scrapped anyway, so when one of the Border Worlds offered to take it off their hands, they agreed. It was an under-the-table deal, much like the way the US sells weapons to third-world dictators, and nuclear arms to Israel.

*Whew* That's everything, I think. Thanks for the fighter designations

. That's exactly what I wanted.

 

[Chernikov]

Knight: the fighter launch system could probably have been less complicated, but I think that the fighters inside the Midway might have been stored on racks when not being serviced, to save space, and making the "claw" system necessary. However, it looked cool. However, the launch tubes were actually not that bad of an idea because (a) they provided a good number of catapults, each independently armored and seperated from the rest of the launching mechanisms. This makes it much harder to take out the launch tubes quickly. and (b) it is much easier to hit a ship moving at max cruising velocity (WC1-4 catapults if I am not mistaken) then to hit one at 3000m/s (WCP/SO catapults) I dont think I got hit once during the launches in WCP. As opposed to a couple of the launches in WC1, where I was taking damage the minute I left the flight deck.

Quarto: about the rapier length: I was looking at tonnage... my bad.

And I DID notice that the increase in fighters would be a lot. Hence the mention of space devoted to antiship weaponry, etc. I was trying to make the point that a ship with considerably more volume but nowhere near the armament carried only twice the fighters. And no, I dont consider tonnage a viable argument to why there werent more fighters - the Midway was primarily empty space (the launching cutscenes) compared to what we can see of the Concordia. You should be able to fit something else in there, especially as you have that nice big bit in back to fit people in. What is that used for anyway?... leaving the capacities of the Vesuvius out of this until I can get to length and capacity information.

Good reason not to send the fleet carriers to the Front. A little selfish perhaps (we dont need a government, I swear!)

As for the flight deck bit, yes I do realize that catapults arent needed, and neither are runways. However, the runways do serve to make a near-miss explode anyway, and that might cause splash damage. Even without splash damage, get enough runway metal twisted in front of your launch bays and your fighters arent going anywhere. The backswept hangar doors of the WC2 era make a direct hit more likely, as it is possible to get a direct hangar hit without a frontal assault. And as Jazz and Minx regularly took advantage of, even a small device in a hangar bay is capable of causing significant damage. A couple of dumbfires will probably cause more. And elimiating the entire ships compliment at once is unlikely, yes, but stopping a carrier from launching is almost as good. Which, given the information about the launch tubes on the 'Claw, is admittedly unlikely although preventing ships from landing shouldnt be too hard.

And yes, if an enemy gets into the open bays such as those on the Ranger class ships, they can wreak havoc. If you are modeling realistic damage they cant even be destroyed, because the blast and shrapnel of a fighter blowing up in that environment is much greater than most missiles (evidence: kamikazes) However, the lack of an approach angle while being fired at by numerous guns (better placed on even the Rangers than on the Kilrathi carriers to stop this) makes is difficult to avoid smashing into carrier hull.



------------------
You deal death with your roars and your screams, your threats, your taunts, your overblown ego. I hand it out, one with the steel and the silence, the blackness around me, with a thought.

 

[Quarto]

Actually, I didn't really like the way the launcher system worked in WCP. It seemed too slow. I mean, in WC3, you just hopped into a fighter and were ready to go.
Speaking of twisted metal, that was the other thing I always wondered about. I mean, what happens to the Midway if a fighter launches a few missiles at the launcher exits? If a dumbfire strikes one while it's closed, it may not be able to open again.

I do believe that Jazz and Minx sent the bombs up under the elevators, but I can't remember.

 

[Chernikov]

Oh, and about wings: To my best knowledge a wing is a unit of two to four ships, and a squadron is classicaly four wings (sixteen ships). The wing size makes sense because you never command anything more than four ships in the first Wing Commander (proabably why it wasnt called Squadron Commander). And as far as squadrons (correct me if Im wrong- someone else has my WCP and Im not likely to get it back) each of the squadrons in the WCP kill board had about sixteen members. This tends to hold true throughout the WC series, except Im not sure what the briefing room size in WC3 is (more than 16, maybe two squads, some were probably turret gunners). I think the 100-craft group youre talking about is the Air Wing, the entire compliment of fighters on a carrier or other craft (no set size). However, 650 years have passed and current traditions may not still apply (although why they would change?)

 

[Chernikov]

Everything on current ships is phase shielded except for weapons. The Bugs (or anyone else for that matter) can launch dumbfires at the launchers for as long as they want to (or until the Midway's crew gets bored and goes elsewhere/runs them over).

And the bombs appeared to be in some type of service cart parked near the ready-five fighters at the mouth of the bay, creating quite a bit of flaming wreckage.

 

[JoeyRP]

I do believe that Jazz and Minx sent the bombs up under the elevators, but I can't remember

Ever been on a carrier? Those flight decks or runways are THICK. I agree with Quarto, the elevators are one of the weak points in a carrier.

------------------

Turn me loose, Colonel.
This is what I live for!

[This message has been edited by JoeyRP (edited July 28, 2000).]

 

[Shane]

I was always a tad annoyed at the ability to be able to fly into a cat carrier and rip it up from the inside. It was handy, don't get me wrong, but you would think they could set the shield harmonics to prevent a craft from doing that. I recall they were concerned about that in Fleet Action, but I guess since WC3 came after that, perhaps Confed found a consistent way to get around the problem.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Ahh, the infamous organization question.

Wing Commander has two different types of 'wings'... the two person ones we command in WC1, WC2 and WCP and the several-squadron groups we command in WC3 and 4. The two person wings are today referred to as 'elements'.

Next comes the squadron. A squadron is made up of several elements/wings... note that the number can vary from 10-16 depending on the carrier and the point in the war. (Wing Commander wasn't called 'Squadron Commander' because the name was already copywrited, BTW).

Then comes the Wing. A wing is made up of 4-8 squadrons and their support staffs, forming a single fighting unit.

Unfortunately, due to the fact that the video was filmed suchly, Prophecy was forced to use the term 'squadron' in place of 'wing'. The three 'squadrons' on the Midway are actually Fighter Wings, and are made up of smaller squadrons. Thus, Maniac being given command of a squadron is actually Maniac being made a Wing Commander -- which is why he was so excited.

The numbers on the killboards never, ever represent all the pilots... it's fairly easy to name several dozen Tiger's Claw or Prophecy pilots who do not appear on the killboards.

Onward... I suppose "one could... argue that it has also shrunk", Quarto, but this argument would be fairly baseless -- given the Kilrathi Saga manual's assertion that missiles have remained the same size for the duration.

The Midway does, indeed, carry at least one squadron of Thunderbolts -- they appear to assist us at one point in Secret Ops.

Don't bother to convert the pre-WCP ship lengths to meters... the original data is still canon. That was just a fun little backstory. There is, to my knowledge, no similar story regarding armor and shields: this change was made for a reason. (That being the existance of durasteel equivalent armor in Privateer and the use of Phase Shields on all craft).

The designation of heavy carrier for the Midway and Vesuvius come from the Official Guide to Wing Commander Prophecy and the Wing Commander 4 novel... the 'mega' and 'super' carrier terms aren't actual types of ships, but rather exciting buzzword type things.

The classes of the various unclassed ships on the ships list was as thus: the list was originally made for people working on Secret Ops (for some reason, I'm not really sure why...), who instructed upon recieving the original version that the 'unclassed' ships be assigned to a number of specified catagoriess -- as thus, most of the 'random' carriers became Concordia class, as it was the 'standard' carrier. (The Kyoto, of course, was referred to as the Tiger's Claw's sister ship).

Regarding the 'empty space' on the Midway... please remember that she had yet to recieve her full compliment of fighters. Another interesting note: compare the size of the large empty space during takeoff to the actual size of the Midway... the 3D artist goofed, it's larger than the outside.

Again, the launcher system on the Midway was shielded -- although it could be destroyed by a torpedo. The Midway could almost certainly launch a reduced fighter load from its recovery bays, though. (As for the speed of launch, I'm sure that fighters on Ready-5 are left *in* the tubes at all times...).

Re: Tiger's Claw -- it *was* possible to destroy her launch tubes... during the various scramble missions in the original game Halcyon often pointed out that more fighters would be launched if the tubes were still operational.

The hangars which Jazz and Minx attacked were below deck, though... it would be very difficult for a DF missile to damage them (ditto for the below deck hangars on *any* ships... Rangers and Concordias are *not* huge tubes).

The missiles hanging around in carts on the runway haven't had their arming pins removed, of course, so they probably won't do much damage. Only if a fighter is caught in mid-takeoff will there be collateral damage from missiles...

Shield harmonics were only a problem for fighters wanting to fly into a carrier while the infamous WC2 era 'phase shields' were actually affective (which includes Fleet Action, of course). (Note that Maniac took out a dreadnought in WCA using this tactic... and it's again viable in WC3 -- but try flying into the Midway's bay in WCP, now that shields are impenetrable again).

The Vesuvius is about 1,800km long and carries 400 fighters.

The Concordia class carrier has a length similar to the Confederation class dreadnought, though, so the distinction is meaningless.

Shane: you can find the sourced ships list at https://www.wcnews.com/ships2.shtml. Most of the data does *not* come from the Handbook, although I heartily reccomend reading it -- even if you don't like the movie stuff. It will definately increase your opinion of the movie, at the very least...


------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

LOAF's Merry Guild

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

 

[Shane]

Broken link. If it is the ships database off the CIC I've been there. One again, thank you.

 

[TC]

It isn't a broken link. Its an error with the way UBBs handle web addresses. A link is automagically created. If there's no space between the address and the period after it, the period is included in the link. Just go to https://www.wcnews.com/ships2.shtml .

TC

------------------
CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Copy the URL and paste it... it'll work then.

And no, it's not the ships database, which I had very little to do with. It's the infamous ships list...

 

[Penguin]

In actuality the whole carrier is one big weak point. If the defending fighters suck she's going down regardless of whether she's a tube or not.

 

[Rider]

WAIT A MINUTE!!!!!!!

WAIT A MINUTE !!!!!!!!! you guys make me totally confused grr!

In WC4 or phrophecy.In which do these guys like the kilrathi , border worlds and nephilnium guys fight?

And by the way who are these Border worlds?

what type of organization are these everything looks to be toooo confusing hearing these names from some where out there.

I heard that the border worlds are fighting in our side is that true and bugs and the Kilrathis are enemies right?

hope these questions are to be answered, hopefully

 

[Knight]

Rider, if you want to learn about WCP, shut up, listen to what the posters have to say, and ask some educated questions when something's confusing, don't just spit out a bunch of stuff that most of the time makes no sense. If you want to know more about the story, buy the games! It's the easiest, most fun, and best way to learn the story. Ebay most generally has a great selection of all the titles, and if you have the cash, Kilrathi Saga is the best way to get the first three. To answer your question, the Border Worlds come into play during WCIV. They are exactly what they sound to be, they are the people from the systems on the border of Confed and Kilrathi space. I'm not going to spoil any of the WCIV plot for anybody who hasn't played it, so if you wnat to know, buy the game.

------------------
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.

 

[Quarto]

Penguin: What would you propose then? Battleships?

LOAF: Squadrons... all right. I could be annoying and ask why we would at this point consider them to be wings when the movies were done as they were, but I won't

. I'm all for fixing such mistakes.
However, I do have to ask why you think that the Lexington (Armada, of course) only had one Wing? We know nothing of its internal organisation. Come to think of it, where did you get that "18 ships" figure from? That doesn't sound right, for a heavy carrier

.

The Kilrathi Saga manual doesn't actually say that missiles have remained the same. In fact, you will notice that the Leech missile, developed in '69, is almost half a metre shorter than FF and IR missiles (and presumably, it's using the locking system of one of those missiles, because it's not rear-aspect). Granted, it doesn't have an explosive warhead, but the disabling system must take about as much space as an explosive warhead would. Furthermore, the KSaga manual is circa '69, and as such cannot include any info about possible later miniturisations.

Regarding armour... well, most of the numbers do indeed seem to support your argument. There is one sort of anomaly though, in the fact that Armada fighters (whose armour measurements are specifically said to be in plasteel [1cm plstl = 10cm drstl, according to Priv]. This means that Armada fighters are far superior to everything else. But actually, that's not really a problem - I guess if they were sending a strike force to clean out Kilrah/Earth, they would send their best (this plasteel stuff must be pretty damned light though).

Regarding launch tubes... wow. I just checked the game, and not only does Colonel Halcyon indeed refer to their existence, but after one defence mission he even says that their damage was the reason for a second wing (in this particular case, Iceman and Dragon) not launching. Guess you learn something new every day

.

The Concordia class is Confederation sized? Last time I rely on that capship comparison chart

. Actually, the numbers on it are wrong. I don't know how the chart itself was created, but it looks like the Concordia class is about 1100 metres long. Is this right, LOAF?

Oh yeah, one more question regarding ship designations. When a fighter gets a number after the name (eg, Arrow V), is that the same as changing the letter after the design number (ie., F-57A and F-57D), or does it actually get a new number altogether? For example, was the Thunderbolt I designated "HF-66" like the Thunderbolt VII, or was the design number actually lower?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

You have to ask why I 'think' the Lexington has only one wing, and then you go on to wonder why it only has 18 fighters? Exactly what do you want here, a large black line drawn between these two concepts? For the '18', I refer you to page 20 of the Voices of War. Further, I will remind you that the Lexington was a very special case -- an entirely self-sufficient carrier capable of setting up facilities to produce more fighters. This is why it's a 'heavy' carrier.

Your complaint regarding Armada armor is similarly unusual... if we multiply the armor given in Armada -- values ranging from 10 to 50 cm -- we get values ranging from 100 to 500 cm... in other words, values that are on-par with their contemporary WC3/4 era ships.

The Kilrathi Saga manual gives lengths for missiles that apply to the entire time-span. This is the point. In other words, a FF missile stored aboard the TCS Vesuvius in 2673 will take up just as much room as a FF missile stored onboard the TCS Tiger's Claw in 2654. Please, please, please shut up about miniaturization unless you can find some proof thereof. I can see neither need nor want to assume that there is a continuity error in Wing Commander because you think it's possible-but-not-indicated that things may have gotten smaller.

I'm not sure how the chart was created, or even where it is now, but I recall that it has some fairly obvious errors. The Concordia class is about 980 meters long.

The roman numeral after a fighter's name signifies how many fighters have bore said name. The Arrow V is the 5th completely new fighter design to be called Arrow. This is best illustrated in reality, where we have things like the P-47 Thunderbolt and the A-10 Thunderbolt II.

------------------
Long live the Confederation,
Ben "Bandit" Lesnick
( loaf@wcnews.com - 302228)

The Wing Commander CIC

LOAF's Merry Guild

"You go, LOAF! Get some!" -JPG

 

[Penguin]

Actually battleships are easier to get rid of then carriers. As a WC veteran you should know that if there are no defending fighters the cap ship - no matter what it is - is going down.
If the TCN wanted my opinion on what is the best way to keep their cap ships alive then I would say make more Wasps, tell the Wasp pilots to get the torp tooting bug fighters instead of messing around with the escorts and refit flak turrets and AMGs to the cap ships.

As for the designation thing the letter after the designation simply symbolizes a different version or model of the same basic design. E.g. P 64 Ferret with limited VDUs and no missiles & the P 64D Super Ferret with HS missiles that was introduced sometime later in WC2 or one of it's add ons. Any mistake made here is probably due to my not having played WC2 in a long while.

[This message has been edited by Penguin (edited July 29, 2000).]

 

[Chernikov]

For the miniaturization people: any advances is electronics would be offset by the need to fit larger warheads to combat more powerful shields and better armor. Sure, tech advanced, but not just in the area of missiles.

As for battleships being easier to take down than carriers: depends on what type of strike force you have. If your strike force is comprised of half a dozen torpedo bombers, then yes it should be easier. If you have a couple of torpedo bombers and four fighters, then the battleship can concentrate the majority of it's weapons (more than enough to go around) on the torpedo bombers or any fighters stupid to make solo strafing runs. And if you have a set of four fighters, better hope theyre Thuds. The heavier armor and shields on the battleships makes it actually harder to take them down without a torpedo based loadout, fighter cover notwithstanding.