Buyable Ships

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LordUther

aww i see! well cockpit visibility dont matter much for me cause i play without cockpit, i wanna see the beautiful graphics to the fullest heh my favorite ship is the demon, love the firing arc. now im saving for the KICK ASS broadsword!! thank you for adding it hehe


hellcatv

don't post too loudly... there's plenty of contention about whether we should even have included such fighter craft in the game.

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hellcatv

Yesterday, 23:26
LordUther

my friend, if you want my opinion, you guys made the right desicion to add them. always wanted to fly them in privateer and im a BIG fan of Wing Commander, so its awesome for me and many others im sure! to hell with the purists, its your mod, you do whatever you want with it and so far, i gotta say im REALLY impress and i love it!!

On another note, you think it would be possible to remake wing commander 1 or wing commander 2 like you remade privateer? it would be so so so cool! =))


Yesterday, 23:36
Lynx

What the point of calling it a remake when you change integral parts of the game? I'm not against some sort of easter egg that allows you to fly some other ships, but implementing them as full blown player ships would require an explanation that would certainly not make any sense.


Yesterday, 23:55
LordUther

really easy to answer:

first off, you do realise that the game was released in the 90s and there was a technological issues. why not letting people have fun with those ships now??

second, about logical explanations in a game... explain this to me, why a civilian ship (centurion) is better than a military ship?????? any kind of "military" ship???

third, its their work and hard hours they put into this, they can make it how they want and name it whatever they want, if some purists aint happy with it, just make another priv game! lol besides, they can make a little button that you could press if you wanna play without having the possibilty of flying those kick ass ships and anyways, they aint even better than the centurion rofl.

fourth, how can someone bitch at something they dont even pay for and havent put time in making it??????? that i dont like... i beta test it to give the dev my output on their work, i'll never bitch about anything cause IM NOT PAYING, im not a customer!!

so thats just my 2 cents and again hellcat, in my opinion you guys made the right decision in including the military ships and im grateful for this great game you gave us. big thanks to you and the other guys who worked their ass off on this.


Today, 00:10
Lynx

What's it with all that people jumping on that stupid "technical limitation" bandwagon these days. It's not a technical limitation that you cannot fly military ships in Privateer. The developers wanted it that way, and for a good reason. But saying that's an limitation of the engine is like saying "The Arrow doesn't have three engines because it's a technical limitation!!!1111onetwo".

Changing the ship loadaout and thus the gameplay mechanics of the original just because you feel like it is to me on the same level as fanboy behavior like "OMG the Tarsus sucks let's add another engines andthree wings!!!"

And about the Centurion being better than Confed fighters - remeber the game takes places in the Gemini sector, a backwater sector of the Confederation, and the Confed ships found there are mostly castoffs and old designs used by InSys and reserve squadrons, in short old craft that aren't fit for frontline combat anymore. So it makes sense that a new and good equipped Centurion performs better than those. And civilian ships are armored with tungsten or durasteel while the ships in WC3(which takes place in 2669 just as Privateer) which are up to date frontline craft and are armored with Isometal which is about 10 times as strong as Tungsten. So you'd probably get your ass handed in a dogfight by a tiny ship such as an Arrow.

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Lynx

Today, 00:14
BradMick

well...heres the deal with that though. if its a remake it needs to be 100% remake with NO implementation of 'this is how i think it should be done' type deals going on. i was thinking on this today, and also after talking with some other folks, kind of solidified that. if the idea here is to implement a bunch of 'player wish list' things, then it needs to no longer be called a remake and be classed as a stand alone 'privateer inspired' game.

that's my stance, take it or leave it. But i think this is, just after reading a lot of the comments, is the deal and dilema folks are having with this project. Anyway, i shouldn't be posting...i should be freaking modeling, god knows i have a ton of work ahead of me....heh...fun times :)

Brad Mick
 
So if i understand right, you dont believe its technical limitations?? lets compare another space flight sim game that came out in the same era..Xwing game... how many ship could you fly? 3 now lets compare those fanchise 10 years after..xwing alliance you can fly what, 7-8 ships? and Wing Commander Prophecy, you can fly like 7-8 too? you gotta remember those old games were on 1.4meg disk not on 700meg cdrom..its really not hard to see the technical limitations they had. oh and another thing, the budgets for game makers in those days were 10x less than they have now. it wasnt such a big industry as it is today.

About military and civilian ships..lets compare something in real life. lets say a 1939 german panzer to a, hmm,lets say a 2005 money transport vehicle.... would you put your money on the value transport vehicle or the "MILITARY" panzer? military vehicles should always be better than what the civilians can come up with, if the civilian stuff was better, it would be requisitionned for the war effort by the government in place.

Now if changing some aspect of the game to make it even more FUN (since its a game) why not do it?

Thinking about it, why dont you complain that the ships are too shinny? they sure werent shinny in the original one..or how about complaining about the jump point animation? its not the same as the original one! (im trying to make a point here...)

Seriously, if some people want the original game, why not play the original one and stop complaining on a great project like this?

Now about the remake thing... lets compare stuff again... movies! I just bought the 2004 remake of Dawn of the Dead... its based on the original one but sure aint the same. Add more stuff, changed some things and overall made it better!

In conclusion, i think the purists should lower their guard a bit and be more open to new stuff! cheer friends!
 
thats where i disagree...the 'purists' as those of us who believe in a straight remake or what have you have been titled, are the way we are because we believe that the game was perfect just how it was. also there was that certain degree of difficulty added to the game by having to pick the right ship for the right job or what have you. The fact is, the 18 ships you got in Privateer 2 were all basicly the same, nothing special. Freelancer was the same. All the ships were the same, nothing fancy, nothign special. Same thing, different exterior hull. WOo! that's freaking awesome! Choice is so incredible when you've got the same thing to pick from...Privateer basicly would turn into 'the same thing, just different hulls'. The demon is basicly the same as the centurion with 4 guns, 2 missile racks, so it lacks a turret, armor is slightly weaker, 50kps slower in cruise, with a 200kps advantage afterburning. Then you've got the gladius, which is pretty much an uprated talon. 3 guns 12dps more turn, its got 1 more missile rack...etc...etc...etc. you kind of get the point. when you boil it down you've got the best all around mix of whatever you want in three ships, that all the other ships provide. i think it wasn't so much technical limitations on the designers parts so much as common sense. why give the player more of the same? just so they have a choice? i think they were smart if you ask me.

Now, to show i'm NOT 100% unchangable, i'd propose adding in the 'speedster' we've got a drawing of the cockpit, and i'd imagine it'd be something which would give even the stilletto a run for its money. The stiletto by the way outclasses the Centurion pretty bad as far as manuverability and afterburner top speed go. coupled with the fact that it's more than likely got nice military grade sheild generators and armor, it's got that nice 90dps manuverability coupled with 1400kps afterburner speed. it's got weak armor, but its so damn agile trying to kill it in a figher like the centurion is kind of a trying task. i remember it being the bain of my existence back in the day, and even now as i play the original on dosbox.

anyway, that's my feelings on it. the fact is, the game was perfect as is. if certain things need to be changed in the vega strike engine to accomadate that perfection that was privateer, then thats where the changes should probably be made as opposed to changing privateer.

Brad Mick
 
Final Say

I've looked into the engine source and found a way to solve this dispute.

This will be a setup option.
The default option will only allow the original 4 ships. (i.e. if the player downloads and runs vegastrike.exe without touching setup.exe it will be like privateer with no access to stilettos or gladii, or demons)

Someone can run setup and change the option.
The option will currently replace the unused hardware/software mouse option.

It will say
"Privateer Original Ship Choices"
"Privateer Righteous Fire Ship Choices" (Fusion cannon, speed enhancer, etc)
"Privateer Original + New Fighters"
"Privateer Righteous Fire + New Fighters" (also will include the Shoklar/salthi if someone is brave enough to give us such a model)

one day that'll affect the campaigns available...but for now since we only have 1 campaign...
 
Brad, correct me if im wrong but Erin Robert made privateer 2 and worked on privateer so if he thinks more ship is better (18 ships in priv 2) and i think it is,who are we to question the developper judgement. I mean 3 ships were damn cool in the 90s, but now we have the possibility to add more, why not do it?

Having more ship to look forward to adds to the game longevity as well. What to do once you maxed out your centurion? If you can look forward to buy a stilleto or broadsword (wich should be damn expensive) you keep playing!

I dont understand why we argue on this when the devs could just make a patch if you want the ships in or not. And remake doesnt mean "exactly the same" cause if it was, there would no point of making a remake.

Anyways, thats my humble 2 cents. myself i'd vote on making a patch for the "purists" (i dont call you that in a mean way btw) and release the game with a couple more ships for diversity. I think everyone would be happy that way dont you think?
 
hmm lemme think =)

1-Hardcore Purist
2-Wow Fusion Canon!!
3-The more the merrier
4-OMFG this kick's so much ass!!!!

If you use my option titles, i expect to be in the credits! rofl =))
 
i think you missed my point...

they don't offer you anything else....they're all the same, add a gun, add an engine, take away a gun....add a missile rack. and a broadsword...gah, that's a horrible ship to fly. slow, lumbering, manuverability like that of a fat pig.

also, most remakes have pretty well sucked IMO when they changed things around.

if you'll give me a few days daniel, you'll have yourself a salthi, promise.
 
You made my point clear friend, see you dont like the broadsword... fine, but what if I like it? I remember all those torpedo run with Doomsday in Wing Commander 2 where he would always eject without firing a single torpedo and i had to do all the job by myself lol! (It's nice souvenir for me, so having the chance to fly a Broadsword again with that great graphic engine is very exciting for me and many others im sure)

I'm pretty sure there's a whole bunch of wing commander fans thats gonna play this remake and be so thrill that someday they can own their very own broadsword! hire a wingmen and take cap shit missions!! now thats gonna be fun.

I dont think that because a couple people dont like or dont want to see some ships in the game, that the whole fan base should miss on them. Thats where the option to turn the option to fly the new ships on or off is appealing, everyone would be satisfied. I'm no coder expert but i doubt its gonna take much work if you guys wanna bother with the option.

About the remakes, it depends on each individual. You could hate a movie that i would love,vice versa.

Again, im just trying to make a point, its all for the sake of argument =) Dont wanna make enemies here heh
 
nah, its not that i don't like the broadsword, its the fact that you have the civilian broadsword already...its called the Orion. Again, there i go showing that all the ships are covered by the 4 that made the game. *shrugs* not like that's being payed attention to anyway.

Brad Mick
 
The main point is that no matter how many money you have military ship aren't for sale to civilians. It just doesn't make any frickin' sense. You can't just buy a military ships when you feel like it.

If you think you have an obligation to add new ships no matter how unecessary they are, then at least add ships that doen't require a dubious explanation how you got your hands onto them. Like making the Demon flyable, for example. Or adding that wedge shaped speedster from the Priv concept art. Or even that pirate fighter from WC4. Everything makes more sense than military ships in the hands of civilians.

One of the finest aspects of the Wingcommander universe is it's continuity, at least in the game. Everything makes sense and fits together, thus giving you a more 'real' feel. If you just change something because it's 'cool' you're screwing with one of those aspects that make Privateer what it is.
 
You are being paid attention to.
This is why I proposed that the default download disallow players to fly ships other than the original four...and then users who want then can modify it by using setup.exe

I've heard no arguments against my plan so I'm considering this case closed unless I hear further protest.

I am still looking for four EXPLANATORY options that explain the differences in just 2 or 3 words so I can put it in setup and won't confuse people.
 
thanks LOAF. Hopefully you'll give it a shot someday (you did try Freelancer after all ;) ) At any rate, your observations are always welcome.
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Frankly, I would think that the biggest complement I could pay to your game is believing that I don't have to try it because I still run Privateer on a regular basis. :)

(Certainly, I'll try your game -- but my ultimate hope is that it's not something I *need* to play, simply because it will do a good job of recreating the original experience. Plus, I don't really keep up with computer upgrades anymore... it may end up that I don't have the prcessing power to run a game like this.)

Seems odd that a magazine for Privateers would mention a privateer flying a Stiletto." p54 (context of strategies against Talon)
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The simple fact that the manual is divided into "COMMONLY AVAILABLE SPACECRAFT" and "OTHER SPACECRAFT", with the former beginning with the claim that "There are four baisc models of single-person ship available to the general public" belies this suggestion.

(The entire section is written by an Exploratory Services Lieutenant -- it's probably for anyone flying in the Gemini Sector, not just Privateers.)

So if i understand right, you dont believe its technical limitations?? lets compare another space flight sim game that came out in the same era..Xwing game... how many ship could you fly? 3 now lets compare those fanchise 10 years after..xwing alliance you can fly what, 7-8 ships? and Wing Commander Prophecy, you can fly like 7-8 too? you gotta remember those old games were on 1.4meg disk not on 700meg cdrom..its really not hard to see the technical limitations they had. oh and another thing, the budgets for game makers in those days were 10x less than they have now. it wasnt such a big industry as it is today.
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Budget would have nothing to do with this issue - with very few exceptions (the most famous one beind Syd Mead on Prophecy) Origin's artists were salaried rather than commissioned... wanting a fifth flyable ship would be as simple as asking someone in the art department to render it.*

It's also not a huge space issue. Privateer wasn't a large game (compared to contemporary Origin titles like Wing Commander 2 or Strike Commander), and even if it were it had plenty of "removable" art that could be sacraficed (... like a zillion hair/eye/mouth elements for the random bartenders) for the few kilobytes that four compressed screenshot images and a little set of ship bitmaps would have taken up.

The decision to go with three ships available for purchase is purely one of gameplay.

* - In fact, a fifth ship was sketched, the "speeder"... ultimately they decided against it because it conflicted with the balance of the game. Other ships were rendered and never used - like a 'Privateer style' Strakha... and still other models were readily available, based on Privateer's mandate to reuse art elements developed for Super Wing Commander.

Thinking about it, why dont you complain that the ships are too shinny? they sure werent shinny in the original one..or how about complaining about the jump point animation? its not the same as the original one! (im trying to make a point here...)
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I think it's largely because "over buyable ships" has a long standing stigma among the fanbase - it's always been the "hey, guys, what if?!" equivalent of the guy who writes fanfic about how his amazing super-fighter single handedly saved the universe. Something that sounds fun but ultimately misses a greater point of playability and continuity. (And no, this isn't an issue specific to the Vega Strike mod - "we should fly Confed fighters, and buy carriers, and own planets, and the game should give us money!" has been a common topic since Privateer came out.)

Brad, correct me if im wrong but Erin Robert made privateer 2 and worked on privateer so if he thinks more ship is better (18 ships in priv 2) and i think it is,who are we to question the developper judgement. I mean 3 ships were damn cool in the 90s, but now we have the possibility to add more, why not do it?
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Erin was a produced on both games and (I believe) was responsible for Privateer 2's film shoot. He almost certainly wouldn't be the person responsible for game balance issues in either game. It would probably have been Joel Manners on Privateer, and someone from Warthog for Privateer 2 (Paul Hughes, maybe?).
 
LOAF: give me your system specs, I'll make sure it'll work on your box ;-) Though you may have to run setup and change some default settings a bit...

It works on my 600 MHz mac with ATI Radeon Mobility, and I know a few who play it on a Rage.

I would appreciate your response to my solution to the flyin ships issue (i.e. only if you tweak setup.exe could you fly them)
 
LOAF: give me your system specs, I'll make sure it'll work on your box ;-) Though you may have to run setup and change some default settings a bit...

It works on my 600 MHz mac with ATI Radeon Mobility, and I know a few who play it on a Rage.

I would appreciate your response to my solution to the flyin ships issue (i.e. only if you tweak setup.exe could you fly them)
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Sure, that's a reasonable choice. Labelling the options is as simple as giving the options as something "Classic" and "Enhanced".

I don't even have a box in the classic sense anymore:( My everyday computer is a P4 laptop (2.4 GHZ or somesuch - and I have no idea about a video card anymore).

My pride and joy is my Wing Commander machine, which is a P3/650... with a Voodoo 5.
 
Glad you think it's reasonable :-)

the classic wing commander machine should perform adequately if you turn various options down to minimal.

The laptop should perform splendid on default settings :-)
good luck!
 
This is something I've been giving a lot of thought to the last few days (how could I not). With the extra milspec ships available, who is ever going to fly a Galaxy? That would be a shame. On the other hand, limiting it to the classic four really means limiting them to the Centurion, as most poeple want to fly a fighter (whoever finished the game in an Orion their first time through?).. If one believes that then the only way to actually create choice is to offer some other fighters..

BUT, ships like the galaxy are improved compared to how they were in the original. Having auto turrets makes a world of difference. Perhaps a better solution for making sure people have a choice is not allowing more fighters, but making sure the non fighters are a bit more attractive. This might involve tweaking how it was, and some people might not like that, but it might be preferable to adding military ships ;) Ideally, we could get some people trying out the Orion etc and letting us know if they feel it is a viable ship as is.

I think that having the options discussed is a good way to go. Those who want can have their remake, those who want to just have a little fun in a Stiletto may do so (provided they come up with the cash)

This remake is not a final priduct yet, so please keep those opinions coming.
 
total canon compliance isn't possible

ISSUES :
1. combat gameplay

combat gameplay can't be like the old one with our speeds, we could make slow dumpy flight dynamics and make it more original-priv-ish.
this means that the universe needs to be shrunk more to make flight times acceptable at the lesser speeds.... making places look real tiny.
I was thinking of making the combat wc3-ish, but mamiya is more for priv style (and this being largely a project pushed by him, he gets the say)

This also reflects on the AI. While i have some better AI, it's more wc3 ish. and i've not gotten around to making a dumbed down priv style AI yet, but really it's DUMB... and none of us really want retarded ai. although that's really the only way you can handle 5 on 1...


2. purchasable ships.

I personally would like the ability to buy anything [SOMEHOW], but i would also like ONLY the CANON SHIPS to be easy to get (available generally)

I think there should be easter egg missions that give you wierd rewards.
like : save confed transport from kilrathi attack.
X% chance that confed will issue a debt of gratitude, i.e. gives you access to some types of technology.
or insted of missions, random encoutners. Think "fallout" :D
possibly have a greater % change of random-special-encounter at more remote areas.

if standard purchasable ships are expanded, it should be for covillian craft. like daemon, and that never-made missing 4th ship.
possibly accessible depending on what guild you join, like Mercenary-guild=>Daemon; Merchant-guild=>Drayman

not only would it keep gameplay balanced, it would encourage people to try random stuff and explore the reaches of the galaxy.

-scheherazade

p.s.
the reason there are 3 ships in priv is simple : gameplay choices
1 - cheap upgrade (orion)
2 - good transport (galaxy)
3 - good fighter (centurion)
 
I guess that's good enough. I just wanted to make sure I can play it so that it feels as close to the original as possible, just with better graphics.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Sure, that's a reasonable choice. Labelling the options is as simple as giving the options as something "Classic" and "Enhanced".

I don't even have a box in the classic sense anymore:( My everyday computer is a P4 laptop (2.4 GHZ or somesuch - and I have no idea about a video card anymore).

My pride and joy is my Wing Commander machine, which is a P3/650... with a Voodoo 5.
Click to expand...
Wierd we use the same laptop
 
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