Buyable Ships

Quarto, I'm not so sure I agree with you. I feel that the reason you could only buy 3 ships in Privateer was a purely a limitation on the game design/engine. Afterall, Talons were clearly in abundance in P1, why wouldn't those be sold on the open market (at least a used Talon anyway)? The Demon had to have been an open market ship (unless the Bounty Hunters manufactured their own...unlikely). And what, Drayman's were only available if you were a declared merchant?

As for the Stilletto, anything is available if you have the money. I guarantee that if I had $20-30M I could buy an F-16 or a similar equivalent. No doubt about it. Here's why: The US military often sells its fighters to other allied countries (example: Israel). All I would have to do is talk to the right person and then for the right price, the fighter is mine. Getting weapons for it is a different matter altogether. That's in today's age, however in the time setting of Priv 1 things are quite different. Pretty much every ship carries weapons, corruption is everywhere, pirates abound and for the right price Roman Lynch can make things disappear. Should be no problem whatsover to get your hands on an old outdated Stilletto (again, I don't have the exact dates in front of me but the Stilletto I don't believe was cutting edge in Priv 1).

Finally, the Centurion was far superior to the Stilletto, if they are allowing it out on the open market why wouldn't someone be willing to sell a few stilletto fighters for the right price? I'm trying to come up with the right allegory here, but I guess it would be like if the military still had any winchester rifles, they would probably have no problems selling them to the public. Why? Because if the civillian models are better than what they currently have, then they are in serious trouble. I mean, if I were an admiral or a wing commander and I looked out and saw that the typical Joe Schmoe out there is flying a ship that can fly circles around my pilots' ships then I would be more than just a little concerned.
 
I think he makes a good point though.

In Privateer we weren't given the chance to fly military craft for the reason that they were military craft and we were just lowly privateers. You had to observe them externally which gave you a sense of "I want that, but I can't have it!" Same as why we weren't allowed to fly as any ship in the book in WC3 and WC4... they just weren't realistically available to us.
 
What about the possibility to buy bigger ships like a Drayman or something like that?
I would love to see some freaks that upgrade their Drayman like a Millenium Falcon ^__^
 
(which we in Standoff call Errant-class, although that's not in any way canon)
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Yes, it is -- it comes from The Confederation Handbook[/u}'s Joan's Fighting Ships section.

and that ship that Kruger was flying in Action Stations (difficult, since there's only textual descriptions, of course)
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Not really large textual descriptions, either - based on the few facts we know (turret placement, relative size), it could be a Galaxy. :)


if you feel strongly, then run that before playing... for those fun lovers like me, they can have it my way...that's the beauty of open source.
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Privateer is open ended, but it's not some sort of wonderful experiment in mob rule. Game design that says "let the players decide the rules, we don't have the heart!" isn't good game design. The better choice is to let the players add in the Stiletto later by deleting your two lines rather than let it affect the quality of the game.

I've told this story a billion times, but it bears repeating: I remember asking Andy Hollis about this same sort of thing in Privateer Online. He said that in general the team was not going to listen to wishlists from players - because the people playing the game generally have no idea what they want. You can make a Privateer game as complex and as world spanning as people claim they want (you can buy fleets! And carriers! And control a virtual fishtank!), but it's just going to get more confusing, more complex and less fun than the game where you choose between the three basic ships.

Quarto, I'm not so sure I agree with you. I feel that the reason you could only buy 3 ships in Privateer was a purely a limitation on the game design/engine. Afterall, Talons were clearly in abundance in P1, why wouldn't those be sold on the open market (at least a used Talon anyway)? The Demon had to have been an open market ship (unless the Bounty Hunters manufactured their own...unlikely). And what, Drayman's were only available if you were a declared merchant?
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People are doing this more and more these days, and it really bugs me. The mod guys say things like "WC3 doesn't have Kilrathi light carriers because of a limitation of the game engine!". That's not remotely true - WC3 doesn't have light carriers because they didn't want to put them in the game. How hard would it be to put the Stiletto in Privateer? You swap a few numbers for the stats and (maybe) include a new graphic for a cockpit. The game could very, very, very easily do this if it wanted - but it's needlessly complex and goes directly contrary to the nature of the in-game universe and the purpose of the three ship choice in the first place (you don't think it's intentional that they make you choose between a fighter, a gunship and a merchant ship?)

(As I explained above, the Talon does have an in-universe explanation - which is in the Privateer manual, and also forms a big part of Righteous Fire's plot. It's not a case of military ships being freely available to anyone -- and the fact that the game *needed* that explanation is proof that such things are important.)
 
"I want that, but I can't have it!"
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It is an interesting debate. The player does look at them and want them; this desire can be used as motivation to continue play. Hopefully people keep playing because it is fun, but it is nice to have some goal out there after the campaign is done. Being able to purchase an expensive, enjoyable ship can be seen as one such goal.

Today, civilians don't have combat ready F-18s (though there are a few privately owned fighters minus missiles etc) but we can own guns, Hummers, etc. We know that in Gemini around the time of Privateer, basically every ship is armed. The Centurion is a more powerful ship than the Stiletto, and civilians can own it. Why would Confed worry about selling a Stiletto when civilians already have far more powerful ships? But do they actually sell them? Well, we have the possibility of corrupt officials (like Menesch and his Talons). Or we can say that Confed might sell one to a licensed privateer who had proven himself an asset to Confed (or someone who blew up a rogue green egg ;) ).

Point is, we can rationalize a civilian getting hold of one of these ships, even if it is a stretch. Not everyone will like it, but it is possible. Add to this its fun factor (people like it; think of HCLs Stiletto patch), and its use in the game as a long term goal and I feel comfortable going out on a limb and making it available (if difficult to get ahold of).

I'm happy to hear opinions on this issue, though I maintain that it really is a small part of the game and a funny thing for people to zero in on. In the end, if that is the only thing people complain about, I would be quite happy :)

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Edit: can't write a reply without 3 other people posting before me lol.
Game design that says "let the players decide the rules, we don't have the heart!" isn't good game design.
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While we do listen to input, to be quite blunt I am making this for me. And we are deciding the rules, not taking polls and adding (or deleting) every little thing someone suggests. Don't believe it? Well look at how we still are having a flyable Stiletto despite LOAF's infinitely logical arguments. No caving to user pressure there :p

This is one reason I didn't really want word of this to spread before it was done. If someone discovered that with a an inordinately large amount of cash he could buy a Stiletto, he might think to tell me that it is unrealistic, but hopefully he would be enjoying the game too much to really care. Now, no one has the game, and people can look through what available info there is and pick a pet peeve. I don't really feel like endless debates about what is truly a peripheral point (Stiletto). Opinions are welcome of course - I've heard this one, and it has been noted.
 
Why not make the player join the Confed or Militia if he wants?

then he can buy only military fighters and choose only missions at Perry or some other Navy Starbase only (plenty of missions to choose so it won{t be boring)
He can't trade (maybe only at the weekends :) ) just do the military missions.
 
That would cost us another 6-12 month i think, but it would be an option for the further story development (1.x releases). You join the confeds and must fight through a military operation near the kilrathi border where you can fly all the wc-wcpriv confed ships...sounds nice... let's dream about it some more... including a massive multiplayer with an open ended dynamic universe and the whole Wing Commander starmap... huuu maybe in 10 years or so :)
 
Well bottom line... We're going to add the ships we like as purchasable.
We will include a patch on this website that realists can run to make ships unpurchasable.

I think this satisfies both parties...but the main distro will always have all ships buyable, public opinion be damned ;-)

We will not listen to any more input on this particular topic...for the developers have agreed.

Remember-- as open source code, anyone is free to download it,run the patch, recompress and release a modified version and distribute it. If it fires you up, then make the "Real Privateer Remake", take this work, call it your own, and redistribute it. I promise we'll include a link to your version. And that's the clincher--because it's either you (yes the currently angry person reading this post) being too much of a sheep to release a "fixed" version, or you're satisfied with what we provide. There's no in-between...because we're happy to help people figure out how to release a fixed version... just not happy to provide one.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Yes, it is -- it comes from The Confederation Handbook[/u}'s Joan's Fighting Ships section.
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Oh, right - silly mistake on my part. I was actually thinking about the way we had called Paladin's Bannockburn an Errant-class in Standoff so that we'd be able to use an existing ship design to depict it.
 
Confed pilots don't really buy their military ships.

It would cool to make a roman republic kind of miltiary where the soldier brought his own equipment, but that's not the case.
 
Ghost said:
Why not make the player join the Confed or Militia if he wants?

then he can buy only military fighters and choose only missions at Perry or some other Navy Starbase only (plenty of missions to choose so it won{t be boring)
He can't trade (maybe only at the weekends :) ) just do the military missions.
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I agree on this... however.. if a player really wanted the ship.. let them steal it.. of course they'll get in deep shite with the confed and wouldn't be able to become friendly again...
 
MamiyaOtaru said:
Stiletto's are military ships, but they are just too cool not to have the chance to fly them.
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Will the player be able to buy steltek ships from Bob's steltek world?
It isnt canon, but it would be cool!
 
Delance said:
Confed pilots don't really buy their military ships.

It would cool to make a roman republic kind of miltiary where the soldier brought his own equipment, but that's not the case.
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Instead of credits he win ''promotion points'' with XXX promotion points you can choose different military fighters, they can´t be upgraded just change the missile loadout, not guns or sensors or ECM
 
Dyret said:
Will the player be able to buy steltek ships from Bob's steltek world?
It isnt canon, but it would be cool!
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As much as I would like to fly a Steltek fighter, it isn't going to happen in this game. Though I would be interested to see the reaction here :D I could bring some marshmallows on a stick and have a good time roasting them by the flames
 
That's pretty amazing. Lets talk about this, BUT WE'RE NOT CHANGING THIS! AND YOU PEOPLE ARE PROBABLY STUPID IF YOU EVEN SUGGEST THAT WE SHOULD! WE HAVE SPOKEN!

First, it's a very large gameplay issue. Why doesn't Privateer give you ten thousand ships to buy? "*Sniff*, because they hate us, and technology in the nineties couldn't count higher than four and they wanted to but EA hid the other ships from them and...". Yeah, shut up, fanboys -- Privateer's choice of ships was one of the biggest elements of the game because each one was a tradeoff depending on what kind of character you wanted to be. Why do we still have threads where people discuss Orion versus Centurion versus Galaxy but not about Privateer 2? Because Privateer 2's choice between eighteen very similar ships was meaningless, and it dragged down the gameplay. Yes, feature lists are sexy when they say you can fly thirty ships and maneuver interactive CGI cupholders... but that doesn't necessarily make for a very good game.

Second, it's symbolic of one of the biggest complaints people have with these fan remakes of amazing games -- big headed fan syndrome. It's not *so* prevalent with Wing Commander mods because people generally don't remake Wing Commander games... but it's very very prevalent in the Ultima community. Nothing has turned me off of half a dozen Ultima remakes faster than the inevitable point in development when they go "and we're rewriting the dialogue to improve the game" or "and we're making it a first person dungeon crawl" and so forth. You may be the baddest lunix programmer on the block and you may be the greatest game designer since Steve Jackson, but you're not going to sell the idea that your Privateer is better than Privateer as designed in 1993. *EVEN IF IT IS*. (And it's not.)

And *that* is the issue -- not "har har har, I can't believe people care about a little ship! Let us mock them!".
 
I'm not going to that level.

Your point has been made, a lot more civilly the first few times. It's apparent if I say something with a smile, you won't be happy with it. If I say it firmly, you won't be happy with it. You just aren't going to be happy. You were happy before you knew this project existed. Perhaps you should forget about it.
 
Folks... relax

it's really not that important... as I said it's 1 or 2 items in a list that are there or not there...
players won't notice it until they want one and have journeyed to perry to ask for one (as I did on many occasions in the original)

I admit--there *are* going to be a few minor differences...and if every pixel different is a pixel of pain, you're just as well playing the original.
However if you're willing to accept a feature complete remake with all the original campaign and dialog and ships... then feel free to play it. I leave this choice in your, capable hands.
 
Seriously, if this really is a huge deal, then instead of bitching and moaning, LOAF could just make a CIC-branded purist release. That's the way things are done in open source-style projects like this.
 
hmm....i gotta say that it's amazing that people bitch and moan about a project never happening, but yet one a project actually does happen and begins to show remarkable progress, they bitch and moan even more about it. gotta love those people.

i for one think that, you know, what the hell...let people have their cake and eat it to. but, do make it so that there is a logical reason behind why they can have a stilletto or any other military/militia ship. Make them have to a) join the military/militia b) steal that shit c) find that nifty ass asteroid that was mentioned by the barkeep with the kilrathi ships on it, and put some surplus purchasable confed fleet ships there to.

oh, and the stiletto really shouldn't have a cargo hold at all. it's a straight up military fighter, just seems a bit silly for it or any other military craft to have any kind of substantial cargo hold.

Brad Mick
 
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