Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Bob McDob said:
I only read the "Trek Lit" board at TrekBBS, but it seems to be a reasonable, well moderated group.
Wing Commander Movie
- Thread starter SoulSkorpion
- Start date
I only read the "Trek Lit" board at TrekBBS, but it seems to be a reasonable, well moderated group.
Balrog said:
Exactly! I dragged two other friends with me to the WCM, who had no idea about WC universe and games. At the end of the movie, they were smiling because the movie was like a low budget Sci-Fi movie; like the ones they air around midnight (the common; androids against humans or some weird space alien eating the crew alive thingie).
I mean, come on people, why was there so much resembelence between the Das Boot and a space battle movie? Sonar pings, people loading the tubes with torpedos, on which only the propellar is missing, "stay qoiute so that they don't hear us" non-sense. There was really no need for that.
There might be tons of technical explanations for the mistakes that we think as a "mistake". And lots of people explained it here in the past. But I didn't get it during the movie, and I played all the WC games. How can a regular Joe get them? Like, in the scene where the Tiger Claw launches two torpedos to a ship and destroyes it. In response, it gets hit by torpedos. She launches another attack and destroyes another one. Afterwards gets hit and losses its front batteries. So, she destroyes the last ship with tubes on her side. In that scene, you see that about 10 torpedos are fired to the enemy ship. Now the common knowledge suggests, if you have the ability to launch 10 torps at the same time, turn the side of the damn ship towards the enemy and fire 10 torps alltogether! Destroy the 3-4 ships in an instance. Was the captain stupid enough not to think about that? Or was there a technical reason? Like
"A space carrier, 500 years from our time, can not fire to 4 different targets simulataneously. The torps just can lock onto a single target!"
Yeah, a 20 year old Tomcat can fire at 6 different targets at the same moment, but the Tiger Claw can't. Why? Well, thats WC universe. Right!
I mean, the movie should address to all people, as said above. If there was a technical explanation, they should have given it to the audience.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't get the people bitching about the "sonar" scene -- it's *really* stretching to assume that because Paladin told the crew to shut up that it was because the Kilrathi could 'hear' him. There's no indication of that anywhere in the freaking movie -- they're cheering and he sees that a destroyer is still after them, so he yells at them.
And with Paladin telling the crew to be queit when listening to the pings, it could be because he was listening to the nature and pattern of how the pings were sent out. As long as the pings were being sent out at reular intervals, it meant that the Kilrathi had not detected the Claw.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I don't think it's even as complex as that -- you (and he) *sees* the Kilrathi destroyer approaching the 'Claw while everyone is cheering...
Bandit LOAF said:
Everyone is bitching about the sonar scene because
1) It doesn't make sense hearing the sonar sounds in the space (they even used the same sound tone), where sound waves are completely useless. Even if you convert radar waves into sound with some sort of equipment, then use those waves to triangulate the location of the enemy ship and put it on a damn screen so everyone can see it.
Even you say that it can not be located because of some other technical reason; if a human ear can distinguish the difference between an incoming or outgoing enemy vessel, I am sure a computer can do it ten thousand times better. So, let the computer make the necessary calculations and display the result. That way, you don't have to carry a Paladin on board of every vessel, I guess.
2) The sonar scene makes the movie a "Das Boot" wanna be! It makes you feel
"Sorry fellas, we couldn't come up with a good idea of how to fill the audiance with adrenalin, so we copy-pasted the method of "Das Boot". By the way, did you realize that the captain of "Das Boot" is also among our crew?"
I don't think anybody forced Roberts to make a WC movie (I might be wrong on this one). If you don't have a good script, then wait until you came up with something good. If that never happens, than don't do the film, as simple as that.
dextorboot
Spaceman
I agree with LOAF. The first time I saw the movie the whole sound in space thing didn't even register. It seemed like he was just telling them not to celebrate too early.
I don't really see why everyone is complaining about "sound in space" for a movie based on game that had "sound in space". Maybe my settings for all my WC games were different, but when I fired a laser it made a sound. Ditto with when something exploded.
Everyone always mentions Das Boot. There's no need for that. There's a scene like that in every movie with a sub. U571 has it and Down Periscope even has one.
Now someone will probably argue that it wasn't a sub. Well no, not in the games. But it's pretty clear that the movie was going for a sub-carrier hybrid thing.
I don't really see why everyone is complaining about "sound in space" for a movie based on game that had "sound in space". Maybe my settings for all my WC games were different, but when I fired a laser it made a sound. Ditto with when something exploded.
Everyone always mentions Das Boot. There's no need for that. There's a scene like that in every movie with a sub. U571 has it and Down Periscope even has one.
Now someone will probably argue that it wasn't a sub. Well no, not in the games. But it's pretty clear that the movie was going for a sub-carrier hybrid thing.
Its been awhile, but I think they were missiles, not torpedoes from the side battery.Murray said:
I think of the 'sonar in space' thing the same way I think of hearing explosions and weapons fire in space in the WC (and other space combat) games. Could you imagine being a pilot and not hearing anything? A pilot needs as much sensory input as possible when flying to both allow them to be aware of thier surroundings and also to make them feel like part of it. I can safely say that if I was in a cockpit fighting with no audible inputs, I'd almost be detached from the action . . . I definitely wouldn't be able to fly at my best. I think the same goes for audible
Plus, the situation with the 'sonar' was live or die. If they were found, they would be dead . . . if they were not, they would live. I wouldn't need a computer to tell me that or want one to tell me how close to death I was.
C-ya
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Murray said:
So... your complaint is that their futuristic computer makes a beeping noise? Like... *ALL* the radar-in-space we see in WC?
The human ear *didn't*. There was a computer screen which showed silouettes of the incoming destroyers. The movie shows you a *CLOSEUP* of this screen, and then shows Paladin watching the destroyers pull away on it. Then everyone starts cheering, but (flash back to the screen) one of the destroyers *hasn't* left. That's when he tells everyone to shut up.
Das Boot is a fine movie, but the only reason you're saying that is because the movie specifically *claimed* that it wanted to be "Das Boot in Space" to the press beforehand. The 'depth charge scene' is a war movie cliche which goes back *LONG* before Das Boot (to the fifties, at least -- probably earlier).
SoulSkorpion
Spaceman
Bandit: Thanks, that helps. It's especially nice to know that the WC2 Kilrathi are the "correct" ones 
dextorboot: The comparison with other game crossovers doesn't really hold very well, because while games like Street Fighter are very light on plot, Wing Commander is incredibly heavy on it. I don't think I've played a game with more cutscenes, or with a more detailed background. A true-to-the-game movie adaptation would have worked extremely well, because the plot of the games if very rich.
My point it, I was expecting the game(s) in movie form, and it was easily possible to do that and do it well (even with their budget). Maybe it was an ok sci-fi, all things considered, but why the hell make an o.k. sci-fi when you can make a very good game crossover? Oh well.
Final note on the Rapiers: what irritated me wasn't so much what they looked like, but the fact that they were called Rapiers. So you're pressed for resources and you need to throw something up quickly (either the Confeds, or the film makers being on a tight budget); that's fair enough. But why on earth call it a Rapier when it clearly isn't? Call it a Lightning if you have to; I don't mind...
Anyways, thanks for the replies. Very helpful
dextorboot: The comparison with other game crossovers doesn't really hold very well, because while games like Street Fighter are very light on plot, Wing Commander is incredibly heavy on it. I don't think I've played a game with more cutscenes, or with a more detailed background. A true-to-the-game movie adaptation would have worked extremely well, because the plot of the games if very rich.
My point it, I was expecting the game(s) in movie form, and it was easily possible to do that and do it well (even with their budget). Maybe it was an ok sci-fi, all things considered, but why the hell make an o.k. sci-fi when you can make a very good game crossover? Oh well.
Final note on the Rapiers: what irritated me wasn't so much what they looked like, but the fact that they were called Rapiers. So you're pressed for resources and you need to throw something up quickly (either the Confeds, or the film makers being on a tight budget); that's fair enough. But why on earth call it a Rapier when it clearly isn't? Call it a Lightning if you have to; I don't mind...
Anyways, thanks for the replies. Very helpful
dextorboot
Spaceman
SoulSkorpion said:
I'm afraid it does hold up as I also said that it happens with crossovers from other mediums as well. Book to movies, comics to movies. I know we all want a movie version of what we've already seen, but why should someone make something we've already seen and only appeal to a specific audience? Not everyone is as interested in seeing that. (read: the general public wouldn't be as interested as we would be)
I agree, the plot is very rich, and I went over that as well. It would require too many movies for a studio or film maker to want to bank on. There's no guarantees.
SoulSkorpion said:
Once again, these are all due to you having your own expectations based on the games. No one else got pissed that Wolverine wasn't wearing yellow spandex.
Again, the only reason you say it isn't a Rapier is because you already believe you know what one should look like.Here's the problem:
good game crossover > ok sci-fi
That's not necessarily true. And an ok sci-fi movie will probably do better at the box office than an attempt at a good game crossover. You might not care if it does well, but I bet the people invested in it do. If you really just want something that could be that faithful to the series perhaps a sindicated series is the best bet. Don't cost much. Can do a lot with a little. But then again, the problem of it actually lasting will come up again. And of course some creative freedom will take place and people will blast it for that.
The "sonar" scene did what it was supposed to do: elicit tension. Plus that was about all the movie had in common with Das Boot besides Jurgen Prochnow. No one equates Dune and Das Boot, even though the "Get off the harvester before the worm gets it" scene looks quite a bit like a crash dive.
WC1-2 Kilrathi were great, later game Kats looked like Power Rangers rejects but still worked out reasonably well. However, movie Kilrathi looked rather Aliens-esque. I was a bit disappointed they didn't have longer on-screen time; that may have helped under the right circumstances.
The movie uniforms looked like something out of Titanic, not very impressive. Plus, if the movie is before WC1, why is Bossman already dead and why is Confed so strapped for resources? They gave a more WC3 Confed feel to the movie's Confed.
Rapiers are irrelevent, I didn't like the look of either. I was looking forward to seeing a Scimitar personally.
WC1-2 Kilrathi were great, later game Kats looked like Power Rangers rejects but still worked out reasonably well. However, movie Kilrathi looked rather Aliens-esque. I was a bit disappointed they didn't have longer on-screen time; that may have helped under the right circumstances.
The movie uniforms looked like something out of Titanic, not very impressive. Plus, if the movie is before WC1, why is Bossman already dead and why is Confed so strapped for resources? They gave a more WC3 Confed feel to the movie's Confed.
Rapiers are irrelevent, I didn't like the look of either. I was looking forward to seeing a Scimitar personally
.SoulSkorpion
Spaceman
I guess it ultimately comes down to a matter of opinion. I maintain that the plot of the games (well, WC2 at least) would in itself make for a good movie without having to deliberately distort it (maybe having to chop out stuff, but without adding in things which weren't there). I think I'd better leave it at that, or I'll drive this thread into an endless spiral .
Truth be told, the feel of WC2's plot (and probably the others, but this is all I have to go on) reminds me somewhat of Banner of the Stars. That's a sci-fi anime. But that's really besides the point
.Truth be told, the feel of WC2's plot (and probably the others, but this is all I have to go on) reminds me somewhat of Banner of the Stars. That's a sci-fi anime. But that's really besides the point
No he says it isn't a game Rapier because it isn't, he just happened to be right.dextorboot said:
I think the consensus seems to beleive that the movie Rapier is the Rapier I and the WC1 game Rapier is the Rapier II (making the WC2 Rapier the Rapier II-G variant - I can't remember off the top of my head if thats from the manual, game, or a book). Hell, a whole bunch of people in WC1 seem to think that there was a previous Rapier, if you chose to read it that way:Iceman: Give me a ship that lets me use my skill. A Raptor, even a Hornet… or one of those new Rapiers!
Shotglass: Hey, Maverick. How’s it goin’? You heard about those new Rapiers? Ever’body’s talkin’ about ’em.
Maniac: I’m lookin’ forward to seein’ one of these new Rapiers!
Halcyon: Effective immediately following the jump, you’ll be reassigned. I want you in one of the new Rapier-class mediums.
Many theories (well not that many, I just want to make it sound like it so I don't have to type anything else defending the movie) are around about Bossman's death (and inaccuracies between games and novels too). Do a little search and you'll find some pretty recent discussions about the subject.Sycorax said:
About the strapped for resources feel, I think that may just be the fact that all ships conserve their resources when they are out and about. Plus throughout most of the war, the Kilrathi had Confed on the defensive (their more craft vs. our better technology) that just started to turn into our favor around WC2, so I personally think a "WC3 feel" for the war is a good description from 2635-circa 2660 and 2667(after BoT, not sure as to the date)-2669.
2 more cents to throw in, WC2 had a great story but if I were in a movie theater watching a direct conversion of WC2 and found out the reason for Colson's treachery was based on something that probably couldn't have been helped anyway, that would have left me with a bad taste in my mouth.
C-ya
dextorboot
Spaceman
Viper, I'm glad you (and others) can find some way to reason these things out and fit them into one coherent story. But my point is, we shouldn't have to do that. The movie should be enjoyed on it's own merits. Much as you wouldn't base comparison of The Godfather (movie) to Mafia (game). Just treat them as if they are unrelated and you'd find a damn fine movie in WCM.
I'm not trying to create a downward spiral, but you asked why some of us can enjoy the movie. I'm just giving you my reasons. If you disagree then you probably won't like the movie.
We can talk about Das Boot all we want, but the fact is that scene can come from any submarine movie. I prefer to think they were copying Down Periscope.
I still think that the 'faceless enemy' idea for the Kilrathi was not the best. I'd like to have a personal villain that you can focus your hate on in the movie. 
Star Wars had the Emperor and Vader, and WC had the Kilrathi Emperor and Prince Thrakhat. A scene where some Kilrathi discuss the plans how to get the Navcom would have been good IMO, for example, But showing two sides of the conflict would have prolonged the movie, and the budget maybe would have been too low for that
Star Wars had the Emperor and Vader, and WC had the Kilrathi Emperor and Prince Thrakhat. A scene where some Kilrathi discuss the plans how to get the Navcom would have been good IMO, for example, But showing two sides of the conflict would have prolonged the movie, and the budget maybe would have been too low for that
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Actually, I feel even opposite-er... I think a *completely* faceless enemy would have been neat. You *never* hear from the Kilrathi in Wing 1 -- you just see the occasionally green and black cat face on your VDU. If the movie *never* cut to the Kilrathi plotting, it'd have been kind of neat.