Wing Commander Movie

SoulSkorpion

Spaceman
To avoid all confusion, I'll make clear the purpose of this post right here at the top: I thought the Wing Commander movie was an absolute travesty, but from what I understand many WC fans disagree. Basically, I'd like to know why. I'm honestly not looking for a flamewar, although some of this post might look like flamebait. If I'm wrong about any of the points I raise, please tell me. That's why I'm posting them :).

A bit of background: my dad bought Wing Commander II when I was a little kid, and even before I played it I loved it. I've also played Armada and the two Privateer games. Finally, I've just recently (in the last three days) played through and finished WC2 and the two special ops campaigns, after finding them on an abandonware site and getting them running again. You see, my copy is on 5 1/4in floppies and I no longer have a drive that can read them.

So, basically: I have not played the first game, or the last three. If there's something I missed because of that, there you go. Oh, and it's been a while since I saw the movie so if I'm sketchy on a few details don't hesitate to point that out.

Anyway, on to the movie.

1: This business about the pilots pretending that dead comerades never existed. Double-ewe Tee Eff? That's just juvenile, and not even remotely related to the series. Shadow, Spirit and Downtown sure as hell didn't cease to exist when they got killed in WC2. Full funerals with gun salutes doesn't look like pretending people never existed to me. I found it to be a very stupid and meaningless aspect of the movie's plot, especially because it has nothing to do with the WC universe! Did the pilots of the Tiger's Claw behave like this, or something?

2: Blair being able to calculate jump coordinates in his head, and possessing some kind of special powers (or some such thing). I've seen enough other references to this to wonder whether it's something from WC3 or 4 that I haven't seen yet (like I said, I've only played WC2). At the time, I thought this was a bit silly.

3: I would bring up the Rapiers, but the FAQ already covered that. At the time I though this was a bit silly, too :)

4: I realise the Kilrathi are probably made out of plastic, but they aren't meant to look like it. God, they were awful. I notice that the FAQ said that the ones in the earlier games didn't match CR's vision of what they should look like; were they honestly supposed to look like deformed lumps of pewter? What was wrong with them looking feline? Thrakath nar Kirkana and Ralgha nar Khallas in WC2 looked majestic and fearsome. The ones in the movie just looked like your average, run of the mill, slimy aliens. Please tell me that's not really what they're meant to look like?
:(

5: I've probably completely misunderstood, but wasn't the whole big mission in the movie simply the equivalent of blowing up a Fralthra? One capital ship? Not Kilrathi sector command, or anything, but just some random capital ship? I've got a feeling I'm very off on this point.

6: It was a bit insipid in itself, but I can hardly comment on that fairly :)

So tell me: what were the movie's redeeming qualities, and on what points have I got it completely wrong?


-SoulSkorpion
 
1: Not in WC1, no. I'm baffled myself.

2: No abilities like that were mentioned in the games, including everyone else. The most mythical powers belong to Maniac. And, well, you'd have to play WC3-P to understand. :)

4: They CANNOT have been meant to look any different than WC3's Kilrathi... Those were the meanest cats I've ever seen.

5: That might be what the fighters were sent to do, but the cats nabbed this hot-shot navigation-computer that could allow the cats to jump from one system in Enigma sector or something directly to Sol. One Kilrathi armada right in our laps, do the math. Not desirable.

As for redeeming qualities, I'm the wrong person to ask. ;)
 
As a WC fan for myself, I wished I hadn't seen the movie at all. It was that bad. Especially the horrible acting of Blair, resembelances with Das Boot (approching enemy ship making pings in your carrier, people telling each other not to make too much noise, as if sound can travel in space blah-blah) so on and so forth.

1) I think they've done it because people find interesting seeing strange new behaviours of navy/army personel. Like the "No one is left behind" kind of thing from "Black Hawk Down". But of course, in WC movie, the concept they came up with was more than silly, its insulting to your fallen comrades.

2) I believe they needed a sub-plot of some sort. So they came with the whole pilgrim thingie. No offense but, how can a person feel(!) the effects of a wormhole and make the necessary calculations in his head? I would understand that if he would navigate the ship through some space-time anomalies but entering some numbers into computer and moving through a wormhole??? Sorry, I don't buy it!

3) Actually, I kind of liked the design of the Rapiers.

4) Someone said here that they couldn't use the same models from WC3 because they look like shit, and we could not tell it because the movie quality in WC3 is very low. Excuse me but take a look at the openning scene of WC3. There are lots of close shots of Kilrathi and they don't look like shit. The way their hairs and paws move, its just lovely. I know, when they start to walk around, they look stupid but then just use close shots in the movie, like you did in the game. There was no need for a low budget puppet show.

5) It was more than that bro' :D
 
I thought that the acting of Freddie Prinze Junior was poor and that he destroyed the character of Chris Blair for me!
 
Meanwhile, in #WingNut...

LOAF: Oh, good, a thread at the CZ about problems in the movie. I'm sure this will lead to an illuminating discussion.
LOAF: By which I mean me setting someone on fire.

Anyway, on to the movie.

1: This business about the pilots pretending that dead comerades never existed. Double-ewe Tee Eff? That's just juvenile, and not even remotely related to the series. Shadow, Spirit and Downtown sure as hell didn't cease to exist when they got killed in WC2. Full funerals with gun salutes doesn't look like pretending people never existed to me. I found it to be a very stupid and meaningless aspect of the movie's plot, especially because it has nothing to do with the WC universe! Did the pilots of the Tiger's Claw behave like this, or something?

No, it's something unique to the movie -- but the movie takes place before the first Wing Commander... and the 'arc', however silly-ly it was resolved, is supposed to involve Blair re-humanizing Angel ("Do it for Rosie!"). So, it's something that she didn't inflict on her pilots afterwards.

We talked about this in a thread recently, actually: it goes along with a theme present in the first two games... Angel's inability to deal with death. We see it in how she reacts to Bossman's death in the first game, and then Spirit's in the second.

2: Blair being able to calculate jump coordinates in his head, and possessing some kind of special powers (or some such thing). I've seen enough other references to this to wonder whether it's something from WC3 or 4 that I haven't seen yet (like I said, I've only played WC2). At the time, I thought this was a bit silly.

It's something unique to the movie (though Blair's religion is never explored in the games). Dramatically, it's a result of the decision to make Blair the central character -- because he's *not* a character in any of the games. He's *you*, and the writers of the games gave him as little background and personality as possible to maintain that illusion. Heck, in the original game Blair has about two lines of dialogue (and he nods a lot :)).

4: I realise the Kilrathi are probably made out of plastic, but they aren't meant to look like it. God, they were awful. I notice that the FAQ said that the ones in the earlier games didn't match CR's vision of what they should look like; were they honestly supposed to look like deformed lumps of pewter? What was wrong with them looking feline? Thrakath nar Kirkana and Ralgha nar Khallas in WC2 looked majestic and fearsome. The ones in the movie just looked like your average, run of the mill, slimy aliens. Please tell me that's not really what they're meant to look like?

No, think of the artwork in Wing Commander 1 and 2 as the 'perfect' Kilrathi (potential lawsuits from Known Space aside)... and then every one afterwards (3, 4 and the movie) as a failed attempt to duplicate them. I don't think anyone (Chris Roberts included) thinks the Kilrathi in the movie were *right* -- but they were something that couldn't be changed after they'd been built.

5: I've probably completely misunderstood, but wasn't the whole big mission in the movie simply the equivalent of blowing up a Fralthra? One capital ship? Not Kilrathi sector command, or anything, but just some random capital ship? I've got a feeling I'm very off on this point.

No fault of your own -- the movie was horribly edited apart. I suggest anyone read the movie novel, which is based on what was filmed rather than what was eventually shown in theaters.

The story was basically that the Kilrathi had stolen a device (the NAVCOM) that allowed them go behind human lines to launch an attack on Earth. The Tiger's Claw had to delay the Kilrathi fleet while Confed could send a fleet back to Earth... so we see several points where the Tiger's Claw is going up against cruisers and such (up to a dreadnought, IIRC) -- but the climax of the movie is when Blair goes to warn Tolwyn and then destroys the Kilrathi super-dreadnought in the Sol System.

So tell me: what were the movie's redeeming qualities, and on what points have I got it completely wrong?

That's a good question -- it's not a good movie, but it makes for an okay story in the Wing Commander universe... if that makes any sense. I wouldn't really reccomend that a non fan (or someone not familiar with the novel!) watch it casually. I think it does have a few positive points -- the effects were very, very good for a 1999 low budget Sci Fi movie, the international cast is very unique... and the 'look and feel' of the movie is clearly very well thought out.

4: They CANNOT have been meant to look any different than WC3's Kilrathi... Those were the meanest cats I've ever seen.

WC3's Kilrathi look great in a highly compressed 320xwhatever video segment... but the fact that they're huge, ungainly puppets shows very clearly on even common tape.

Like the "No one is left behind" kind of thing from "Black Hawk Down".

Now *there's* a bad movie. :)

2) I believe they needed a sub-plot of some sort. So they came with the whole pilgrim thingie. No offense but, how can a person feel(!) the effects of a wormhole and make the necessary calculations in his head? I would understand that if he would navigate the ship through some space-time anomalies but entering some numbers into computer and moving through a wormhole??? Sorry, I don't buy it!

Blairs "power" is "being really good at math" -- doesn't involve feeling anything.

I thought that the acting of Freddie Prinze Junior was poor and that he destroyed the character of Chris Blair for me!

Chris Blair didn't have a character. Freddie Prinze Jr. does an okay wide-eyed cadet.
 
What I would really like to see, honestly, is someone take the novels to the WC movie, make a few neccessary changes (like the things that look really hideous, I.E. the "tiger claw" {and fix that, dammit} and the ugly kilrathi) and re-script and re-shoot the movie as something other than a cheap shot at a summer-thriller. Take some time to really do a good job. Even, possibly, make it a lengthy feature (perhaps even equal the screen-times for such films as Braveheart, LOTR, or something similar).

I think that, with the proper budget, attention to detail, and input from Loaf (for even more attention to detail), there could be a very successful Wing Commander title in the sci-fi movie industry. Something other than this shoddy, slap-dash, ramshackle movie we see before us. With enough work, it would be able to stand on its own as a good movie instead of having to lean on the Wing Commander title.

They could title the movie "Wing Commander: Hey, this one's better, we promise!"
 
I think the movie did OK. Sure, it wasn't great, but I liked a few aspects of it: Matthew Lillard was perfect as the young maniac! :D His acting reminded me of the WCA Maniac. And the movie Broadswords were damn cool, the Rapier, well, there could be worse. The KF-100 Dralthi were badass, too.
The "submarine chase" scene was a wee bit silly, but on the other hand, it can be explained in some way, that the radar bursts of the Kilrathi were made audible, but the scene with Paladin demanding the others to stay silent was awkward.
Bust most of the negative glory should go to the test audience who couldn't differentiate the Pegasus commander from Captin Sansky because they were both bald; due to that they had to cut out the whole traitor subplot which could maybe have saved the movie in some degree.

I would have liked to see a bit more of the Kilrathi side of the conflict, like the Kilrathi nobles who insult each other in the most humorous ways, like in the novels.

BTW the worst acting IMO was when some officer tells Tolwyn that the Diligent is the only ship in range to relay the message, and Tolwyn looks thoughtfully and repeats, "The Diligent". Now that was bad. I nearly laughed my ass of when I first saw that scene.
 
overmortal said:
What I would really like to see, honestly, is someone take the novels to the WC movie, make a few neccessary changes (like the things that look really hideous, I.E. the "tiger claw" {and fix that, dammit} and the ugly kilrathi) and re-script and re-shoot the movie as something other than a cheap shot at a summer-thriller. Take some time to really do a good job. Even, possibly, make it a lengthy feature (perhaps even equal the screen-times for such films as Braveheart, LOTR, or something similar).

I think that, with the proper budget, attention to detail, and input from Loaf (for even more attention to detail), there could be a very successful Wing Commander title in the sci-fi movie industry. Something other than this shoddy, slap-dash, ramshackle movie we see before us. With enough work, it would be able to stand on its own as a good movie instead of having to lean on the Wing Commander title.

They could title the movie "Wing Commander: Hey, this one's better, we promise!"

Do you have a few dozen million to produce this? The Wing Commander movie was well planned out. I wouldn't consider it "slap-dash" or "ramshackle." I actually liked the WC movie (bought it on DVD finnaly last week), even though it doesn't (IMO) go along with the WC universe and some of the ideas are cheesy. I liked the visuals, I liked the feel, I enjoyed the actors. I would have greatly preferred the traitor subplot, but that's on the cutting room floor. Who knows? They may come out with a Special Edition in a few years with the deleted scenes.

IIRC, Chris Roberts still has the rights for the WC movie from EA, but it doesn't look like he'll be doing anything with the license anytime soon. Ever think of writting a letter and asking?

(BTW: Fill your daily quota for.. hero worship yet?)
 
Ok, so you want to know why some us actually liked the movie.

First and foremost, if you go into this movie thinking you're going to see something you've already seen in a game then you'll probably be extremely disappointed and hate the movie. This isn't a knock on the WCM, it has to do with any game series made into a movie. The two mediums are different and as such things have to change. Take the SMB movie. It had character names and a few references to the games and that was about it. Now, it's either a huge letdown (because you thought it would be like the games) or a really stupid movie (because it's just boring and dumb in general). Then there's Tomb Raider. While most people hated it. I thought it had the closest feel to any game series made into a movie and I enjoyed it. Lara made all the grunts of the games, she jumped around like it was a video game, and puzzle-wise it was close to the sorts of things done in the game (think the big swinging pendulum Lara had to jump on). The story was even as lame as the games. And yet most people still hated it. Then there's MK. Probably the second best (IMO) game to movie crossover. It had the characters, same basic story for each one, the fight scenes were pretty good, it kinda meshed the games together into 1 story instead of having several, and it added in a few things to make the story more interesting. The other fighting game, SF2, was also a big disappointment for people. And yet again, the characters look like you would imagine (for the most part), same moves for the characters. The problem with this game is that there's very little actual plot in the SF games. Every person has their own thing going on and they don't really mesh very well. So we get a crap story to go with the movie and a small attempt at trying to fit in everyone's game story. Ick.

For another example, think of the recent trend of Marvel movies. None of them stay close to the source material (in this case comics) and yet they're really good movies. There's always people pissed about "Oh there's no Gwen Stacy in Spider-Man..." or "Bruce Banner's dad isn't the Absorbing Man and what's all this about being injected when he was a kid?" Those people miss out on otherwise great movies. They are good movies in their own right and not on the basis of the source.

My basic point in all that is to watch the movies as if you have no idea what's going on in the games. Come to them completely fresh and you'll probably come away with a good experience. When you finish watching them you should be more thrilled about the things that were the same (what they were able to keep) than what they had to change. And hopefully you can even enjoy the parts they had to change.

I'm not really gonna go much into your points because I've already written quite a bit. But for everything, just remember that it doesn't have to be exactly like the games (or in the games at all) to be good on it's own.

1. I liked this. I think it showed how people didn't want the war to affect their lives even though it changed them all dramatically. It shows kind of a desperation aspect to Confed side of things, like they'd all been driven to the point that they couldn't deal with death anymore. Angel even says that no pilot needs to be reminded that they probably won't last long out there. That's bad for morale.

2. It was subplot and quite frankly I liked it. Gave Blair an unlikely/unwanted hero persona. His kind are persecuted so know one likes him and wants him dead, so he gets to save everyone and show them Pilgrims can be good guys too.

3. I liked the Rapiers. Most people don't because they don't look anything like any other ship from the games. To me it made it seem like the Confed was seriously low on resources and was basically holding on by a thread. They were old and ugly but from everything said in the movie it seemed like they were supposed to be that way. Not even the pilots liked flying them.

4. I was caught off guard with the new Kilrathi. I was expecting big hairy beasts and instead I got Dr Evil's cat. :) But seriously, it made them seem more alien than they were in the games, which I enjoyed. And they were barely in the movie anyway. I, like everyone else would have preferred more of what we get in the games and books. The Kilrathi side of things is always quite interesting, but for a typical hour and half summer action movie it simply isn't possible. It seemed like they wanted to get across that the Kilrathi were a faceless enemy that were just killers. I think it worked. Had there been a sequel maybe we would have gotten more of the Kilrathi side.

5. Others have already sufficiently commented on this. And from what LOAF said it sounds like after having seen it the first time I knew exactly what the plot was. I really didn't find it all that hard to understand.

I think Freddie Prinze Jr. plays a certain type of character really well. I don't think this is it. He did a good job, but because of my expectations for Blair it just wasn't quite right. Again, that's something that if you let go of that expectation, it's an entirely new character which is not a bad thing.

Maniac was a pretty good character. Like someone else said, a lot like the Academy Maniac. Plus, he was never one of my favorite characters so I really didn't have any expectations of him. I know people around here worship Maniac, but quite frankly his character never did anything for me. Funny, enjoyable, a good link through all the games, but overall he never impressed me. I'm not saying I don't like the character, just not as much as most people like him.

The only part that seriously disappointed me was the dog fight scenes. The cameras tended to be too close to the action. I was expecting something more along lines of Star Wars space battle or even Top Gun, where the planes do all kinds of fancy maneuvers and you get a nice big picture of what's going on. Lots of angles with short shots of the action through an asteriod field. There were too many cockpit shots and not enough action shots. For a movie about pilots there was very little. On the upside I enjoyed the carrier battles.
 
Wow . . .you said a damned mouthful . . . sadly, I got bored and skipped large chunks of it, but I'll come back and read it again later.

Look all I was saying was that I would like to see a WCM that corrects the shortcomings of the one we have currently. I've grown much more tolerant of the WCM simply because I've had the apologetics hammered into my head for a few months now, and I'm starting to let things slide. I'd just like to see a WC movie that not only holds true to the WC universe without having to make up a whole mess of other stupid stuff (I didn't particularly care for the pilgrim/jedi thing, myself) but still holds its own as a good movie outright. I'd love to see it be something other than a cheap summer thriller. Something intriguing and epic instead of just wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am.

Btw, I'm not exactly sure what was meant by "hero worship", but if you're referring to how I suggested Loaf be consulted, that's because, honestly, he knows more about WC than a lot of us put together. No 'hero worship', just respect where respect is due.
 
Sorry, I know it was quite long, but the question was long and detailed so I wanted to explain as much as I could. People not liking a movie because it doesn't go with what they think it should just annoys me. And for what you missed, I didn't really argue any of the technical discrepencies between the movie and game because I don't think they really matter. The only reason they don't matter is because I leave all that stuff at the door when I go see a movie made from something else. So people not liking the movie because ABC carrier wasn't in service during XYZ year "so the movie got it all wrong" seems kinda lame to me.

Well yeah dude, I'd like to see it be something other than a cheap summer movie too. What I'm saying is that there's nothing wrong with a cheap summer movie. And sadly most movies about fighter jocks tend to be just that.

I feel it did hold true to the WC universe. Humans are fighting a warrior race known as the Kilrathi in small space fighter planes. Like I said, it can't be the carbon copy we all want for various reasons. In a perfect world this would actually be a series of movies but that ain't gonna happen. I was excited when they announced the Battletech movie but to do it any justice it'd have to be several movies and that probably won't happen either. The reason these series should be made into series of movies is because they already have this rich history and backstory to go along with them. But realistically until they reach the popularity of Tolkien novels or SW or ST that will never happen. The best they can do is make a singl movie that will appeal to a broad audience and hope that people see it and like it enough to want more.
 
You also have to remember that the movie was not only aimed at the WC fans,it was also aimed to attract other audiences. That ment that the makers of the movie had to make it appeal to other viewers, hence Freddie Prince Jr. and the pilgrim thing. Also, the budget was small, and with the effects that the movie had, the makers went way over budget. So the cockpit shots and such were filler for action scenes that they simply could not afford to shoot.
 
I'd liked to see less spacebattles and more of a good plot, i.e. people interacting, cleverer dialoges and such, a cool end battle would have been enough for me. If the movie would have been longer, it probably would have been better too. It always felt to me as if a 2 hours+ movie was compressed into a smaller movie, but that may have been because of the bad cutting too.
 
Less space battles for a movie based on a sci-fi flight sim?!?

Don't get me wrong. A great plot would've made the movie much better, but space battles is what the game is all about. Ok, maybe not ALL but let's be realistic.

And just to be clear, I'm not advocating MORE space battles, just better ones. It kinda seemed like all the planes were just sitting still and occasionally shooting at each other.
 
Oh, I meant less spacebattles.com, the most horrible website in the universe. Including that website Hitler runs (Yahoo!Geocities).
 
You forgot most of Stardestroyer.net and TrekBBS. (I've never been to TrekBBS, but apparently it consists mostly of lesbian flamewars and people whining about Enterprise).
 
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