The Landreich "Republic" vs. The Union of Border Worlds

IIRC at the end of WCIV if the vote for war is passed, then you see the Confed navy heading towards a BW navy. It is not a good picture, but that would show that the BW navy isn't as bad as some people here may think.
 
I think Blair's assesment of the Border Worlds military in the TPOF novel was that it was strong enough to be considered a threat by Confed, but lacked the power projection ability to fight a war on Confed's scale. (I'm going entirely be memory here, though. My WC novels are still in the post from New Zealand to England.)

At the same time, I'm wondering if they would have had more than 3 or 4 such ships, given that Confed needed a war it could win relatively easily.
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An important distinction, it was the Black Lance who were looking for a fight, not Confed. While Confed's actions were proven wrong in hindsight, it was acting on what it believed was a genuine problem.

Best, Raptor
 
An interesting thought, would there had been a mass defection of Confed forces to the Border Worlds in the event of a war? I'm sure many of Confed's troops were recruited from the Border Worlds. Also, there would have to have been other prominent military commanders that could see through the line of crap that Tolwyn and his minions (people like Seether and Paulsen) were peddling.

I always thought that Confed responses to the presence of an enemy destroyer-carrier (the Intrepid) in Earth controlled space in WC4 seemed a little lax. The Ella missions seemed somewhat difficult, but I'm sure there was more than just 3 capital ships in the system. Did the others choose not to attack the Intrepid?

Also, Eisen was able to secure the support of a brand new, not yet completed Super Carrier that was docked at Confed HQ. That would indicate that not only the crew (probably thousands of people ) but some really high level brass at HQ saw through Tolwyn.

Think about it, if Confed HQ wanted the Intrepid out of action, how hard could it really have been? Also, the brass kinda sat back and watched the St. Helens and the Vesuvius blow the hell out eachother. No major disruption of the events.

Confed military obviously wasn't wholeheartedly buying the evil Border Worlds terrorist plot.
 
Anxiety said:
IIRC at the end of WCIV if the vote for war is passed, then you see the Confed navy heading towards a BW navy. It is not a good picture, but that would show that the BW navy isn't as bad as some people here may think.
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The shot is only of the Confed fleet, you can see the Ves and some concordia class carriers and a lot of escort ships. Then I think a dragon and arrow fly by...I don't think you see any UBW fleet...
 
Assuming that both sides are as we last encountered the (Wing Commander IV for the Border Worlds and False Colors for the Landreich), then I will give the advantage to the FRLN. Their units are more professionally organized and they have less territory to cover.

The Landreich can field four carrier groups that are, logistically, the equivalent of anything the Confederation can put to space: three CVEs and the Karga (a Bhantkara-class heavy carrier).

The Outerworlds Fleet *may* be able to put together six: two Durango-class conversions, two converted transports and two CVEs. It's heavily implied, however, that the CVEs are on loan from the FRLN in the first place. The Durangos are the equivalent (at least) of a FRLN CVE each... the converted transports are nothing but cannon fodder in a standup fight.

We need to discuss the 'return to Confed' factor, which cripples the UBW further. We know that the Mt. St. Helens went back to the Confederation... and in all likelyhood, so did the Princeton. Worse, though, is the fact that Confed has the Intrepid after WC4 -- Blair is training Confederation pilots in the Sol System, not Border Worlders.


IIRC at the end of WCIV if the vote for war is passed, then you see the Confed navy heading towards a BW navy. It is not a good picture, but that would show that the BW navy isn't as bad as some people here may think.
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You don't see an opposing fleet - it's just a Confederation force heading for some planets.

Also, Eisen was able to secure the support of a brand new, not yet completed Super Carrier that was docked at Confed HQ. That would indicate that not only the crew (probably thousands of people ) but some really high level brass at HQ saw through Tolwyn.
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The Mt. St. Helens was actually taken by force - Eisen's "friends in high places" revealed to him where it was undergoing engine tests with a skeleton crew.
 
Wow, stealing the Mt. St. Helens, the Princeton, destroying the Lexington, killing 3 capships in the Ella system, blowing up a space station in Earth orbit, destroying I don't know how many fighters...Perhaps the Border Worlders were the bad guys?!?!?
 
If you really think about it, some of those cases are self defense. They were attacked in the Ella system, and needed to retaliate, they were attacked by the space station and retaliated, some can go with at least some of the fighters. Now they comendered the St. Helens to stop not only a needless war but also an old Admiral who had some messed up views about what to do after the Kilrathi war. I don't recall the Princeton, was that the Concordia class ship, or the Black Lance ship they took? Or was it cut out from the Playstation version? I read the book but honestly can't remember it.
 
They were attacked in the Ella system, and needed to retaliate, they were attacked by the space station and retaliated, some can go with at least some of the fighters.
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That'd be a hard claim to make - the Ella System is deep in Confederation space... which the Intrepid was invading. Confed had every right to prevent an enemy carrier from being there.

I don't recall the Princeton, was that the Concordia class ship, or the Black Lance ship they took? Or was it cut out from the Playstation version? I read the book but honestly can't remember it.
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It was the Concordia-class ship.
 
Dragon1 said:
Wow, stealing the Mt. St. Helens, the Princeton, destroying the Lexington, killing 3 capships in the Ella system, blowing up a space station in Earth orbit, destroying I don't know how many fighters...Perhaps the Border Worlders were the bad guys?!?!?
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This was after Confed forces had invaded Border Worlds territory, fired on Border Worlds fighters without warning, attacked a Border Worlds military base on a planet, kidnapped a scientist and summarily executed both Border Worlds military and medical personnell, don't forget. (TPOF novel.) As I said above in the thread, I don't see Confed as an agressive party in WC4, since the Black Lance was pulling the strings. Having said that though, I think it would be even harder to call the Border Worlds the bad guys in WC4 because they didn't pull their punches when fighting for their survival. If the war declaration had gone ahead, they would have been wiped out on a false pretext.

Best, Raptor
 
I agree. Earlier I had posted though that I think Confed military would suffer from some sort of mass defection. Even though Eisen stole the St. Helens (strangely enough he is wearing a Confed uniform again in the game when he transmits his holo-mesages to the Intrepid), the appearance is that much of Confed brass was riding the fence to see what would happen at the Great Assembly.

The Intrepid was cruising around deep in Confed space in the Callimachus, Ella, Talos and Sol systems. This space not only was probably heavily patrolled, but I'm sure there was some sort of sensor detection system that the Intrepid tripped. Confed HQ had to have known about the Intrepid, and their were many more Admirals and Generals there than just Geoffrey Tolwyn. When the Intrepid entered the Sol system, it should have set off alarm bells throughout the system. I'm sure it did, but Confed HQ was content to watch two of their newest Super Carriers maul eachother and then still not respond even after the Vesuvius was vaporized.
 
Dragon1 said:
When the Intrepid entered the Sol system, it should have set off alarm bells throughout the system. I'm sure it did, but Confed HQ was content to watch two of their newest Super Carriers maul eachother and then still not respond even after the Vesuvius was vaporized.
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Don't be silly - the whole thing was over in a matter of minutes, so they didn't have time to respond in the first place. You can be sure that had Confed been able to respond, they would have.
 
A matter of minutes! There were two whole missions between when the Vesuvius and St. Helens began fighting in the Talos system and when they crossed into Sol.

The Intrepid departed the Ella system crossing the superbase and the forces dispatched to deal with her (rather light actually, a frigate, a destroyer and a cruiser plus two or three squadrons of Hellcats and some Longbows). Did someone at Confed forget von Klausewitz's concentration of force maxim, or did they purposely set it up where each capital ship attacked independently. Also, even after, the Ella station would have been tracking the Intrepid and sent information ahead to Confed HQ.

With the experience Confed earned in the war with the Kilrathi, it find it hard to believe that Confed responses could have been so slow. It would be like saying NORAD couldn't intercept a hijacked aircraft that it had been tracking for over 27 minutes heading for the Capital knowing that its transponder had been turned off and that it had been taken by hostile forces (oh wait a minute...)!
 
I would agree that the Ves - St. Helens fight took much longer then a few minutes. In the novel, the whole fight between the ships takes place in Orestes where the Princeton is outfitting with new fighters. The two ships fought while Blair, Maniac and Seether duked it out and after Blair downed Seether, he then attacks the Ves with a flashpak, destroying it. The battle occupies 6 pages in the book as well.

In the game it also is drawn out. In order to make a safe jump ships have to slow down to get proper alignment. In order to cross the distance between jump points there is still a period of acceleration after jump, you can't go from 250 kps to several thousand instantly....
 
Dragon1 said:
The Intrepid was cruising around deep in Confed space in the Callimachus, Ella, Talos and Sol systems. This space not only was probably heavily patrolled, but I'm sure there was some sort of sensor detection system that the Intrepid tripped. Confed HQ had to have known about the Intrepid, and their were many more Admirals and Generals there than just Geoffrey Tolwyn. When the Intrepid entered the Sol system, it should have set off alarm bells throughout the system. I'm sure it did, but Confed HQ was content to watch two of their newest Super Carriers maul eachother and then still not respond even after the Vesuvius was vaporized.
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While Confed may have known about the Intrepids movements, there may not have been much more they could do about it. At the beginning of the novel where Blair is in the bar before he meets Maniac. The books makes it sound like the Confederation military has been severely downsized and a lot of personnel are no longer in service. The conversation between the Arrow pilots escorting the convoy at the very beginning of The Price of Freedom Novel before the convoy was attacked seem to suggest this to me. As a result the Confederation may not have had much that could intercept the BWS Intrepid before it reached Earth. Other ships may have been to far away or occupied in other hot spots.
 
Dragon1 said:
A matter of minutes! There were two whole missions between when the Vesuvius and St. Helens began fighting in the Talos system and when they crossed into Sol.

The Intrepid departed the Ella system crossing the superbase and the forces dispatched to deal with her (rather light actually, a frigate, a destroyer and a cruiser plus two or three squadrons of Hellcats and some Longbows). Did someone at Confed forget von Klausewitz's concentration of force maxim, or did they purposely set it up where each capital ship attacked independently. Also, even after, the Ella station would have been tracking the Intrepid and sent information ahead to Confed HQ.
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Firstly, the Vesuvius mission sequence (in the game) was pretty short - the Intrepid attacked out of nowhere right outside the Sol system jump point. This mission ended very quickly (for once, there's no autopilot in the mission, so the three-four minute mission is real-time). Blair landed. A a few minutes onboard, then another short mission, ending in the Vesuvius' jump. The Intrepid and St. Helens jump through to the other side, where Blair launches almost immediately, and takes the Vesuvius out, again taking only three or four minutes. That's the end of it. And remember, when you're working out the time Sol-based forces had to assist the Vesuvius, those three-four minutes are it - they could not assist them while they were still on the other side of the jump point.

It's also worth noting that there's just no point criticising Confed strategy based on the game missions. The reason why each of the three capships attacked separately is simply because the mission had to be finishable :). Oh, and about the Ella-HQ communications - notice that the Vesuvius, right in the next system from Ella, apparently had no idea that the Intrepid was out there. Funny thing... suppose you're at Confed HQ. Somebody tells you that an enemy carrier is heading for Talos. You've got a supercarrier in Talos. Doesn't your course of action seem clear enough? So ask yourself, then - why is it that Tolwyn was not told about the Intrepid?

(finally, about the book version - yes, the battle there took longer than a few minutes; however, IIRC the location of the battle in the book was remote enough to make reinforcements pretty difficult, so at the end of the day it all amounts to the same thing)
 
Perhaps, but does anyone else agree that if Confed and the Border Worlds went to war that like Blair, Eisen and Maniac that there would have been mass defections to the UBW? This may include entire fighter squadrons and capital ships. I would think that Confed recruited alot of its military personnel from the Border Worlds. Hawk, even though he didn't defect from Confed, served in the TCSF during the war with the Kilrathi. His homeworld, Mylon II, was in the Border Worlds.
 
I don't think there would have been a mass defection if Tolwyn had made his case for war. In that case, the war declaration would have come from the properly elected government of the Confederation, and most of Confed's forces would have honoured that. I'm sure that there would have been some who, because they came from the Border Worlds or had some other ties to them, might have gone over to the other side, but not enough to make any real diffferance.

Best, Raptor
 
I agree with Raptor. If the other officers didn't know that the events blamed on the Border Worlds: such as the attack on the convoy, on Orlando Depot, and other events were really committed by the Black Lance, a majority would have honored the Confederation declaration of war believing that the Border Worlds instigated it.
 
I do agree with you guys in the sense that if the civilian government declared war, most of Confed would swing into action immediately. Although, I think if captain Eisen, being a loyal Confed war hero could see through the lies, I think other intelligent military commanders would also. Some of the missions that Eisen was forced to undertake, like kidnapping a chemist, could be covered to look like a legitimate and legal operation to most, but I think some of the higher ups would start to question command decisions. They would have to be removed, the way Eisen was for Paulsen.

If the war did actually happen and it was a protracted war, certain elements of Confed would start to either defect or rebel from the inside. This may have even created some kind of civil war in Confed which may have been what Tolwyn wanted all along.

I mean, lets face it, after a 35-year war with the Kilrathi, how many Space Force pilots would be willing to use the Gen-select device on civilians? How many veterans would cooperate with the Black Lance?
 
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