Kilrathi interior designer needed

I got a lot of the information on the Cats I put into WCRPG from the aforementioned Aces Club page - the words there came from various sources, including the novels. The names in the onomastikon came from the known Kilrathi name list; again, that originated mainly in the novels though it includes names of known Kilrathi in the games. Those bits are "real".

The rest of it (the interpretation of the six honorifics and the use of midnames) is my attempt to resolve the naming conventions introduced in False Colors with the naming convention used everywhere else in the WC universe, so that bit's mine - hence the "non-canon" tag at the top of the page. The usage of place of origin, clan affiliation, occupation or notable personage is fairly ubiquitous in most human surnames, and as WC is a game made by humans, we have a tendency to carry that on to alien species as a rule.
 
Soooo, as you can see this is like myth busters. LOAF appears and my theory is busted :D
I couldn't care less, it makes life much easier not having to explain dozens of titles.

Let's see what we have now in short form:

- Barons are the leaders of clans.
- There are a lot of clans, the most important ( = powerful? ) eight having seats in some council.
- we don't know of any other titles except "Lord" (which is pretty generic of course), "Prince" which means somebody is the heir to the Emperor, and of course "Emperor" which obviously is the boss cat.
- Melek is also a Baron, but we don't know of which clan
- Melek is Thrakhath's principal retainer

And another thing concerning Melek:
The CCG's time frame is WC3 IIRC, so Melek became Baron before Thrakhath's and the Emperor's deaths.

And here are my new theories and questions:
- Which clan names do we know apart from the eight? I only remember Hhallas and ....Aussie.

Melek theory one:
- Melek is not the leader of the Kiranka clan, so...
a) ...he is the leader of another clan, presumably not one of the eight because he... doesn't look like it. And he seems to be an adviser, not somebody who is really powerful. I assume that Thrakhath would treat one of the high clan leaders differently.
b) ...he is the leader of another clan, one of the eight but... he became a Baron just recently... but why doesn't he fear Thrakhath will use him to keep his clan under control? Thrakhath seems to trust him. I wouldn't trust anyone of the high clan leaders if I were the crown prince.

Problem with this theory is that he seems to be in a pretty high position after Thrakhath's death. He is the one who surrenders and he is the one who signs the treaty of Ko -bar Yagar. He has to be someone important at that time or the Kilrathi wouldn't follow him. Also I agree that the way Kilrathi fealty works it is more plausible that he is Kiranka.
If we add some small detail we could catch that problem:
--> after Thrakhath's death he became Baron of Kiranka but before he was leader of another smaller clan that branched from Kiranka and now became the leading faction inside Kiranka.
But I don't like that theory that much either. There are too many assumptions in it.

So here's Melek theory two:
Melek is the leader of the Kiranka clan because
- The Emperor and Prince Thrakhath can't have a seat in the council because of some "separation of powers" or because as the leaders of the empire they sit above the council and not in it. Or the Sivar cult demands that the imperial family is "of all clans and of none" which would explain why the symbols on the Emperor's throne could be clan symbols.
--> he is the one who speaks for the Empire when he surrenders because he is leading the ruling Kiranka clan and there is neither an emperor nor a crown prince. As Baron of Kiranka he may be third in line for the throne. IIRC I read that Thrakhath killed a lot of his rivals. Melek seems to be too weak to harm him so he didn't kill him. After all we know that Melek is something like a nice guy at heart which the Kilrathi might call feeble.
--> after the war (in WC4) it seems he isn't exactly the most powerful Kilrathi. Maybe because Kiranka lost the civil war.

Theory two may be a bit of a stretch in the first argument, but I actually think it could explain Melek's position better than theory one.

So what do you think?
 
Double post again because of the edit thing, sorry:

My Kilrathi name formula obviously lacks something. We see it in the name of "Kirha hrai Hunter nar Aussie" for example.
the "hrai X"-component seems to point to a especially close relationship of the henchman to his lord. Most Kilrathi don't have it.

So the formula may be
_name_ "nickname" (+ optional hrai _other_name_) nar (clan_name) (+ optional (lineage, sip, family)

I can also do that formula in BNF but please don't force me to. :)
 
That's not right, Fleet Action actually refers to the others as Barons. "Qar'ka Baron of the Qarg clan," "Baron Ka'ta of the Kurutak clan" and so on. The Wing Commander 3 novel also refers to clan leaders as Barons as a general term.
Ok, didn't notice that somehow - all I could remember is Fleet Action always talking about Baron Jukaga and never any other barons.

In all cases I know of the Baron is either a noble with very little land (just a few villages or even just one village in many cases) or it is a title that is given to somebody that hasn't any land at all by the ruler, just to get him into nobility.
Again, you have to take into account evolution over time. Gradually, a kind of ranking system did evolve, but it's actually something unnatural to the feudal system. I make this point again, because it's important - our knowledge of noble ranks is stained by everything that happened after the feudal system lapsed, whereas the Kilrathi live in a functioning feudal system... which, just to make things extra-interesting, is likely to be vastly different to what we know, since the Kilrathi are, at the end of the day, an alien species.

My quick five minutes of research showed that the term "baron" was originally used differently. For example, if you do some research about the Magna Carta, you will find that generally, it is said "the barons" forced King John to sign the charter. King John's conflict was with "the barons". Does this means the earls, dukes and whatever stayed on his side, while all the low-rankers revolted and won? No, it means that the titled nobility as a whole was being collectively referred to as "the barons".

Remember, what to us is merely an antiquated title, to them was an actual word. Duke, for example, is actually nothing more than the Latin word "leader" (so, the correct translation into German would be... ahem... err... "fuhrer"?). Emperor, similarly, meant someone with the power to command. With "baron", it's a little less clear, apparently, but one of the theories is that it comes from the old Germanic (Frankish) word meaning "warrior" or "nobleman". The only trouble is that even if that were the case, by the time King William I started using the term in England, its origins would have been forgotten: he took the word from the French.

Anyway - the upshot of this is that originally, titles were very diverse, not only due to linguistic differences, but also due to local peculiarities. Take "dauphin" for example - it means exactly what it sounds like, a dolphin. It is also the customary title of the heir apparent of the Kingdom of France. Where did it come from? Originally, one of the counts of Viennois, who had a dolphin in his coat of arms, was nicknamed "the dolphin". His successors decided to change their title, referring to themselves as "le dauphin de Viennois". In 1349, one of them sold his domain to the King of France, and one of the conditions of the sale was that the French heir apparent... you get the picture. Or how about the Irish? Before the English conquest, "king" (or rather, its Gaelic equivalent - ri) was the title used by independent rulers. Not rulers of Ireland, but rulers within Ireland. Every once in a while, one of these rulers would become powerful enough to force the others to recognise his authority, and he would be referred to as the "high king" - "ard ri". In terms of power, however, an Irish king was comparable to an English earl, and only the high king was actually comparable to an English king. Then again, could the King of Ireland, whether we call him a high king or king, compare in any way to the King of England? No, of course not - the difference in power was so great that the King of Ireland was no more powerful than the Duke of Norfolk or the Prince of Wales. Finally, you have a third factor - feudalism was personal. You may have one paltry village beholden to you... and be titled an earl. Maybe you saved the king's life during a battle, maybe one of your ancestors did - or maybe your earldom once included all the surrounding areas, but you fell upon hard times and had to sell parts of it. It's not like there was a bureaucratic committee that would send you a letter "dear Earl of Whatever, we have noticed that your domain fails to meet the requirements of an Earldom. You have until the end of the year to correct this, otherwise your title of Earl will be revoked and you shall henceforth be referred to as a mere Esquire".

Feudal ranks and titles escape all systematisation - you absolutely cannot look at any feudal titles and assume that they mean what they mean. This is very, very important when looking at the Kilrathi. Kilrathi honorifics were a pretty simple thing back in the days of WC2. Everyone was Whatever nar Whatever. The books treated this pretty gently too... and then, False Colors happened. Suddenly, there's like a bajillion different honorifics, lak, dai, whatever. We don't know what they mean, they're pretty crazy and overwhelming, the writer probably didn't devote much thought to them either... but rather than ruining a simple and logical system, it adds a great new layer of feudal craziness to it all. I would take this as the most important lesson - don't try to systematise the Kilrathi, because it goes against the spirit of what they should be :).

What? I'm pretty happy this isn't the case actually. :D
That's ok, most people think so... but then, most people don't understand what feudalism actually was :). I guess I won't get into it here, though.

He made a grave mistake and ...wait for it.... he wasn't killed. He didn't even commit suicide. This is interesting since when you look at WC1 the Emperor killed his own son when he lost the Sivar. In my opinion Jukaga's mistake was much bigger but he was only exiled.
This tells me that heads of clans are in fact treated differently.
I think this was discussed in one of the books, at least a little bit. Or maybe it was just implied... or maybe I just thought it was :). Hard to tell, with my useless memory. Anyway... I think someone at some point did suggest that Jukaga should have committed suicide, and the fact that he chose not to was a stain on his honour.
 
Thanks for that insight, I am not a historian so I just take your word that everything you wrote is correct.
I know that it wasn't quite as regulated, that's because it was feudalism. I think you explained that quite well, also how titles, the power of the nobles using them, and other factors in that system changed.
I also agree not to go more into the details because I think we derailed the thread far enough already, and discussions about political systems aren't exactly what we need now (although I admit that I like them) :) .

The (in most cases) correct German translation for "Duke" is "Herzog" by the way.
The German titles for nobles are roughly speaking Baron (baron), Vizegraf (viscount), Graf (count/earl), Markgraf (marquess), and Herzog (duke)

Still I think that a bit of systematizing helps in creating characters and stories, because if you don't know who somebody is the title may be at least a clue. Finding a system behind it (if there is one) is an advantage.

Whatever, I think that part of this discussion becomes obsolete, because the important points are known now.
So I guess my goal with the titles was reached. We know now what the Barons are and what role they play in relation to others.

So I would be interested in opinions regarding the remaining two topics of this thread:
- "Melek, who is he, where does he come from and what what did he do" - theories above
- Kilrathi architecture and how it is influenced by their anatomy, way of life or beliefs.

Here's a list of facts, questions, and possible answers:

Anatomy (with possible effects on architecture):
- Kilrathi can see in parts of the infrared spectrum so they can distinguish some colors we can't (I can't think of any dire consequences that could have, except maybe that some parts of Kilrathi architecture may look boring to human eyes)
- Kilrathi are big cats that walk on two legs. (They like high ceilings because they don't like bumping their heads into the ceiling. They seem to have chairs, so no funky cushions on the floor or that kind of things)
- Most Kilrathi have fur (except those on the movie. Perhaps those are the real furless freaks...). So what could this mean for interior design? (Pff... maybe they have lots of brushes laying around on tables to clean their fur? Or maybe not. Do they shower? Do they like water except for drinking? Do they have parasites? Do they have litter boxes?)

...ok this is getting out of hand, I'll go to the next part of the topic

Way of life:
- They are warriors so like mentioned earlier I expect them to have weapons, trophies and such things everywhere.
- Kilrah has a red sun and is very dry and hot. They like that climate because they are used to it. (brown and reddish colors are not only popular but that's also the natural color of their durasteel or whatever they call it)
- Do they like looking into space? They seem to do that a lot in cutscenes. (could that mean they like big windows?)

Beliefs:
- I assume not all of them are equally religious, although it is quite likely that religion is important for most of them. So an interesting answer is whether they have special places to pray or something like that on their ships? Do they meditate or do they have some chapel aboard? Do they pray at certain times (sunrise, noon, sunset) or something? I think I remember hearing about some atonement ritual.
- They may use certain colors for certain things, I see a link between blue and Sivar, for example. But this is not canonical.

I'm sure I missed a few things... Let's see! :)
 
While working on the other things for the mod and eating at my PC (yeah I know I shouldn't, but I had so much fun working with the mission editor) I wondered whether the Kilrathi eat with their fingers or with forks, knives, spoons, sporks or whatever. Not that I want a dining table included in the main hall (...actually why not? space on a space ship is limited) but it would be interesting. My guess is that they use their hands mainly, having napkins and maybe water-filled bowls available to clean them. You know, like people have in China.

No main hall sketches yet, unfortunately, but at least I got some sketches for HUDs by my girlfriend (yay) so I can start working at those while waiting for the other things. :) And since there are some other things to do before I can release the mod, take your time. :)
 
I would say for most aspects of Kilrathi society (including eating), I'd look to Japan's Tokugawa era (maybe as far back as the Sengoku period) for guidance - from roughly 1600 to 1850 or so. I'd have to look it up (because it's been too long) but I think eating with the hands was considered taboo in that society. I rather like the notion of the cats eating with their hands - mostly meat, probably raw.
 
- Kilrathi can see in parts of the infrared spectrum so they can distinguish some colors we can't (I can't think of any dire consequences that could have, except maybe that some parts of Kilrathi architecture may look boring to human eyes)

They don't see MORE of the color spectrum so much as they see a different, lower, portion; that's why reds and yellows are a lot more common for the Kilrathi... they'd have harder time distinguishing blues and purples that are up at the other end. They also react poorly to bright lights because they're adapted for low-light environments; the helmets Kilrathi warriors wear are designed to filter out excess light.

- Most Kilrathi have fur (except those on the movie. Perhaps those are the real furless freaks...). So what could this mean for interior design? (Pff... maybe they have lots of brushes laying around on tables to clean their fur? Or maybe not. Do they shower? Do they like water except for drinking? Do they have parasites? Do they have litter boxes?)

I suggest taking a look at Freedom Flight, where Kirha is being held on Sol Station. There's a segment where he doesn't understand the amenities in his cell--he thinks his bed is for releving himself and that his toilet is for drinking water.

- They are warriors so like mentioned earlier I expect them to have weapons, trophies and such things everywhere.

Yes, certainly. Remember: "I shall mount your bones in my hall!"

- Kilrah has a red sun and is very dry and hot. They like that climate because they are used to it. (brown and reddish colors are not only popular but that's also the natural color of their durasteel or whatever they call it)

Kilrah is actually an orange dwarf, IIRC.

- I assume not all of them are equally religious, although it is quite likely that religion is important for most of them. So an interesting answer is whether they have special places to pray or something like that on their ships? Do they meditate or do they have some chapel aboard? Do they pray at certain times (sunrise, noon, sunset) or something? I think I remember hearing about some atonement ritual.

They do have special places to pray. You don't see it in the finished cut of the movie, but there's a shiny Sivar statue in the CIC of the Kilrathi ComCon that they prey at.

The atonement ritual (Pukcal) is an annual event.
 
Thanks, those are interesting facts!
Especially the thing about the statue in the CIC. I wouldn't have expected that one.
 
My question about the order in which I should read the books has just become obsolete.
Yesterday I came home and saw that my first Wing Commander book (I ordered five of them last week) arrived!
I was pretty excited and started reading when I was finished with working on my missions that day.

The book is Action Stations and I like it so far. I made some notes about Kilrathi culture for my campaign already.

There is one thing I wondered about though:
Both the Kilrathi and the Terrans seem to know about a big dangerous civilization spreading somewhere near the galactic core from probes they sent there or something.
Are those the Nephilim? I always thought the Nephilim came from another galaxy. But then Forstchen must have known about the Nephilim because that book was released after Prophecy (1998). So this is not coincidence and the Nephilim are actually those core guys?
If yes I wonder why they need this huge portal thing. Why don't they just jump here via various jump routes? Especially since the Kilrathi apparently supposed in the 2630s that they would arrive in 50 years or so.
(possible explanation: Near the galactic core there are less jump points so it would take significantly longer and there could also be less routes so they are easier to block by the Terrans or Kilrathi. So it is almost impossible for the core guys to invade the outer regions without using those portals).
 
Argh, I can't edit my *insert profanities here* posts again. I'm really sorry for all the double posts, I'm really not trying to spam!

Anyway, at least I have an answer to my question what Kilrathi seem to like sitting on. It is comfy chairs it seems. Look at the right cockpit view screenshot of the Korlarh I posted in the other thread (this one https://www.wcnews.com/chatzone/threads/kilrathi-hud-concepts.26091/#post-375647 ). This has to be comfortable for them since they spend a lot of time in those chairs when flying long distances.
 
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Both the Kilrathi and the Terrans seem to know about a big dangerous civilization spreading somewhere near the galactic core from probes they sent there or something.
Are those the Nephilim? I always thought the Nephilim came from another galaxy.

I remember reading an old thread on this a while back...I think it's this one:

https://www.wcnews.com/chatzone/threads/are-the-mantu-and-the-nephilim-one-and-the-same.17654/

Basically the same question, and if I recall correctly, Bandit LOAF pretty much says that yes, it's the Nephilim being referred to in Action Stations. Been a while since I actually read through that thread.
 
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Ah thanks!
That thing is indeed really old.
The information available about all the other species belong to my favourites, they just make the universe look more... alive.
I always wondered about the Mantu/Nephilim dichotomy that is mentioned in the thread you linked. For me it was clear that they weren't the same, but I thought maybe the Mantu were a concept that finally became the Nephilim while keeping the original Mantu and changing them a bit.

Speaking about Nephilim....
The Sivar cult somehow being founded by the Nephilim thousands of years ago is one of the things I dislike most. I mean, it does explain some things and it isn't per se bad.... but I just... I dunno. Being somebody who 'likes' the Kilrathi It hurts me that their main cult is supposed to be created by the enemy, that big parts of their culture and religion are based on such a mundane thing.
And why the hell did the Nephilim do that? I don't understand it. They were here, why didn't they stay? Why did they encourage the Kilrathi to try and become a threat to them AND waited with their return long enough so they had a chance? They must have been powerful thousands of years ago and they are still using technology that can be harmed by the Kilrathi/Terrans? If they had come just a few years earlier neither Kilrathi nor Terrans would have stood any chance against them. I just don't get it.
Since they also seem to be some kind of "warrior guys" a part of it can be explained maybe. They don't like fighting if it isn't dangerous or something like that, and they seem to have a bit of respect towards their enemies.
I think it was one of the death screams in which a Nephilim capship commander says (I have the German version) "Wir sind dein Opfer, Krieger!" which roughly translated means something like "we are your victim/prey, warrior." Don't know how it sounds in english but it is not something I would expect a merciless swarm creature to say.
 
Specifically, the phrase is "We are your prey, Warrior."

From what I remember from prior threads about this, the purpose of the Nephilim was a test from the "Aligned Peoples" for a new member into this "fraternity." The Kilrathi were originally the ones under consideration, I think; but then the bugs came and found the cats totally beaten, making the victors (the Human race more specifically) the ones that would be tested. I believe only part of this is actually in the canon, but there are references to much of this in the WCP, especially from the various taunts and death screams.
 
The Sivar cult somehow being founded by the Nephilim thousands of years ago is one of the things I dislike most. I mean, it does explain some things and it isn't per se bad.... but I just... I dunno. Being somebody who 'likes' the Kilrathi It hurts me that their main cult is supposed to be created by the enemy, that big parts of their culture and religion are based on such a mundane thing.
I agree - WCP tried to transition the WC universe from a pulpy WWII-in-space setting to a genuine (albeit still pulpy) sci-fi universe, and looking at it now, it's almost a pity that it happened. It's not as bad as it seems, though. We don't really know much about what happened, there's lots of ways to interpret it all. In particular, there's no reason to assume that the Nephilim founded the cult of Sivar, this cult might have already existed and simply adapted to the new circumstances.
 
Sure they don't know it, still I know it.
And since I identify with the Kilrathi a bit it feels weird to know that aliens played with their beliefs when they were weak.
I'm not religious but imagine such a thing would happen to Christians or Muslims, Hindus or whatever! Suddenly you *know* (you not suspect or think or are told or believe, but know) that a central part of your belief was founded by your enemy that laughs at you, for fun. And he knew it all the time of course. That's disturbing.
 
Sure they don't know it, still I know it.
And since I identify with the Kilrathi a bit it feels weird to know that aliens played with their beliefs when they were weak.
I'm not religious but imagine such a thing would happen to Christians or Muslims, Hindus or whatever! Suddenly you *know* (you not suspect or think or are told or believe, but know) that a central part of your belief was founded by your enemy that laughs at you, for fun. And he knew it all the time of course. That's disturbing.
Well, that's the thing - *you* don't know it :). We really have no idea what that was all about, because we know virtually nothing about Kilrathi religion(s), nor about what happened with the Nephilim. In truth, we don't even know if they really had visited Kilrah previously. It's so vague, that a future WC product could easily cross the whole idea out.

Think about it. When Europeans arrived in Peru, the Incas thought they were gods from an ancient prophecy, returning a second time. They fit the description pretty well - but as near as we can figure out (;)), they really weren't gods, and they certainly weren't returning because they'd never been there before. What does this mean? It means simply that the fact that the Nephilim resemble the Kilrathi Star God myth does not automatically mean the Nephilim actually were the Star Gods, nor does it mean that they necessarily had planted the myth in the first place. Yes, of course this is what the creators of WCP had intended, but we don't need to care about their intentions, only about what they actually got across.

Looking at this from a different perspective, though... you ask what would happen to the Kilrathi if they knew this - there's an easy way to find out. The next time a Jehova's Witness knocks on your door, let them in and ask them. In their history, they've "foretold" the end of the world about twenty times, each time turned out to be wrong, and still they carry on. That's probably as good an indication as any for the Kilrathi - rather than coming to the conclusion that the Star Gods had cheated them, they would come to the conclusion that the Nephilim were a false alert, and the real Star Gods are yet to come.
 
Yeah, I think I can live with that explanation. Thanks :)
(and now back to architecture before this turns into a religios discussion :D )
 
Hey guys!

Any ideas/concepts for the main hall yet?

Apart from asking that I wanted to give a a bit of information what I' m doing now and also another request:
Yesterday I finished the first draft of my first fiction viewer entry number one, it contains the intro story which will be displayed as a text before the first mission. People not interested in the story may skip it of course, and I'll make sure that the story doesn't contain any information that is needed to win the missions. The briefings and missions themselves will contain all information needed to win the game.

I plan to finish that part of the story today and start the smaller story parts between the missions.


Also I want to mention again that I am neither a great author nor is English my first language.
So I will need at least 2 additional people who help me with the story:
- editor / proof reader (English major or something, native speakers preferred) who will find all my errors and correct my poor English into something people can read without laughing at me every 30 seconds because I wrote yet another goofy sentence.
- editor / fact checker for Wing Commander canon things. He or she should know all the important sources (having read the books and played the games) and be able to give me hints what I should change in order not to irritate the fans (I know I will probably irritate some fans anyway but I want to avoid it where possible).

The goal should be not only to correct me but to also provide solutions what would fit better than what I wrote.

So if you think you might fit one of the two descriptions above and are interested, post here or contact me via PM.
 
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