In a War Which would win?

[Skyfire]

I'd say that both have relatively equal number of modern/old equipment. (The UBW that's all they had at the time of their forming-but have had time to update/have Confed help by selling off ships. While the Landreich is known for grabbing up just about any- and every-thing that there is available.)

While I'd tend to agree that the BW pilots are probably fairly skilled (they beat this "master pilot" group in the BL, and they were often in the midsts of the fighting with the Kilrathi) they still used Confed to keep them around. The Landreich, on the other hand, fought many Kilrathi groups by themselves and won-but they weren't fighting top of the line crafts as a general rule. I'd actually go so far as to say that the Landreich has better pilots-but given time (which is has been since WCIV) the UBW would have better equipment. (While they may not have things like the Karga, they also have a better relationship with Confed to obtain ships, etc. And they have a much better chance of actually building construction yards.)

 

[t.c.cgi]

Originally posted by junior

As for the Landreich - they're in the boondocks. Where are they going to find anything to fight? Perhaps the occasional human pirate, but not Kilrathi pirates. The UBW is on the Kilrathi border, and we know from the WCP manual that Kilrathi pirates are still very much of a threat to human interests. As a result, the majority of Kilrathi pirate raids into human space are probably going to be directed at UBW interests, and somebody has to hold down the fort until the navy arrives to clean things up.

Yes, out in the boondocks, not next to Kilrathi space... even though they realy are. Red is Kilrathi on the map right? Hmm look at all those non-Kilrathi Planets on Landreichs non-frontline border.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/nsswty/Wedge009/maps/Landreich.png

So far from the front line it's not even funny.

Ohh wait... capital world of Landreich is no more than 2 jumps from kilrathi space. Ohh my appears we are both mistaken!

 

[Raptor]

The Landreich only links up to a backwater of Kilrathi space, and even during the war was considered a low priority area. The BW is in a direct line with a lot of the Kilrathi front, so claiming that BW pilots have more experiance post war is hardly invalid. Plus if the Border Worlders fought as part of Confed in the Kilrathi War, more of their senior pilots/commanders could have Confed training and frontline experience.

In addition, the Border Worlds probably have more ability to build/manufacture/modify their own fighters andf get them in service than the Landreich does. Even with the short time they had in 2673, they were able to get the Banshee, Vindicator and Avenger into combat, albeit in small numbers. The Landreich, despite having been around much longer,were still relying solely on Confed cast-offs and the fighters off the Karga as late as 2670. So when it comes to replacing losses (asssuming Confed doesn't sell anymore to either side), the Border Worlders might have an edge.

Best, Raptor

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by junior

UBW has Confed around for the heavy stuff (Nephilim battle fleets, etc...), but the UBW still has its local forces. Otherwise it wouldn't have a 'militia'. And given the fact that the 'Confed Protection' led to at least one near disaster in recent history, I'm fairly confident that the UBW isn't about to turn everything over to Confed.

Fair enough.

The UBW militia probably still has a force composition similar to what they had during WCIV, just with modernized forces.

So they have 2 (3?) carriers and a few fighters?

They've undoubtedly got newer fighters to replace the Rapiers and what-not that they were fighting the Black Lance with, and the Thunderbolts and Excaliburs are probably their primary heavy fighters.

They did get a nice number of Dragons/Lances, assuming Confed didn't take them back (since they were built with Confed tax dollars...).

And the Intrepid has probably been replaced, as well, although not by anything as good as the Murphy or Plunkett that Confed uses. A few Eagle-class CVEs might be a possibility, though.

Weren't the Eagle-Class *new* in WC3? I'd say if they have anything they've gotten some Ranger's or something. Maybe they could have something as new as a Bengal, perhaps.

As for the Landreich - they're in the boondocks. Where are they going to find anything to fight?

They have plenty to fight...seeing as it's also on the Border of Kilrathi space....

Perhaps the occasional human pirate, but not Kilrathi pirates.

Or both!

The UBW is on the Kilrathi border, and we know from the WCP manual that Kilrathi pirates are still very much of a threat to human interests.

...which the Landreich also has to fight....

Confed Navy is in the middle of peace time, and with no real opponents to challenge Confed's strength, the navy is going to be smaller, meaning that the weight of dealing with pirate raids falls on the local garrisons.

...aside from the ruthless hordes of alien invaders....

The Landreich no doubt has some excellent pilots, but they're starting to get a little grey hair mixed in with the black (or brown or blond).

Or blue! But it doesn't matter....the Landreich has every bit as good of pilots as the UBW does.

The UBW may or may not have as many older veterans (its doubtful that Hawk is the ONLY Border Worlder vet still in the cockpit),

Aside from that HAWK DIED and served with Confed in WCP....(as Blair, Maniac, and Dekker also did....)

but I can almost guarantee that the ones that got in the cockpit in the last few years have seen more action than new Landreich pilots have.

No you can't. You've given no (good) proof of that.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Ladiesman^



They did get a nice number of Dragons/Lances, assuming Confed didn't take them back (since they were built with Confed tax dollars...).

4 or 5?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

4 or 5?

Probably sixteen (Lances -- re: how many did the Border Worlds capture). I'm pretty sure they'd have to give them back to Confed after the conflict, though...

So they have 2 (3?) carriers and a few fighters?

During WCIV they had eight 'carriers' -- two Durango-conversions, two transports capable of launching (but not recovering) fighters, two Landreich Escort Carriers... and then the Princeton and Mount St. Helens. We know for a fact that Confed got back the MSH, and it's pretty probable that they got back the Princeton too... and, of course, the pair of escorts would have returned to the Landreich.

And Confed took the Intrepid for some reason.

Weren't the Eagle-Class *new* in WC3? I'd say if they have anything they've gotten some Ranger's or something. Maybe they could have something as new as a Bengal, perhaps.

The Eagle-type was new in WC3, and is apparently still in use by Confed -- it seems to be part of their current military scheme (fast light carriers paired with heavy carriers). Given that Confed still maintains the 50-year-old Concordia class in 2681, it's doubtful that they're selling off *new* ships.

The Border Worlds is still crippled by a lack of shipyards when 'buying' surplus Confed ships -- Confed doesn't sell you a warship lock stock and barrel... they sell you a picked-over warship. You have to do things like refurbish and arm the ship... as we see the Landreich doing in False Colors. And of course, despite the fan fiction notion that everything is for sale, I'd maintain that it's only very, very outclassed capital ships that get sold to other nations... (the United States doesn't sell fully armed nuclear powered aircraft carriers to Mexico...)

The Landreich only links up to a backwater of Kilrathi space, and even during the war was considered a low priority area. The BW is in a direct line with a lot of the Kilrathi front, so claiming that BW pilots have more experiance post war is hardly invalid. Plus if the Border Worlders fought as part of Confed in the Kilrathi War, more of their senior pilots/commanders could have Confed training and frontline experience.

I don't think this is a valid argument -- the war was fought in the Border Worlds, but not only *by* people in the Border Worlds. Confed trained their pilots on the inner worlds and then sent them off to fight... I could certainly argue that HD units in 2673 in the Border Worlds would be far better trained than Confed core worlds militia units... but only equal to those in the Landreich. And by 2681 the people trained in the war will have advanced in age quite a bit...

In addition, the Border Worlds probably have more ability to build/manufacture/modify their own fighters andf get them in service than the Landreich does. Even with the short time they had in 2673, they were able to get the Banshee, Vindicator and Avenger into combat, albeit in small numbers. The Landreich, despite having been around much longer,were still relying solely on Confed cast-offs and the fighters off the Karga as late as 2670. So when it comes to replacing losses (asssuming Confed doesn't sell anymore to either side), the Border Worlders might have an edge.

The Border Worlds builds their own fighters in the same sense that the Landreich did in '69 -- by sticking new weapons and parts on old ships. Making a shuttle into an Avenger is the same thing as making a Ferret into a... Ferret with a big engine thing

UBW has Confed around for the heavy stuff (Nephilim battle fleets, etc...), but the UBW still has its local forces. Otherwise it wouldn't have a 'militia'. And given the fact that the 'Confed Protection' led to at least one near disaster in recent history, I'm fairly confident that the UBW isn't about to turn everything over to Confed.

*Confed* has independant (and some dependant) militia units, though. And we've seen that officers from these units can transfer into regular Confed... but *never* that they're more impressive than a garrison squadron of Thunderbolts.

The UBW militia probably still has a force composition similar to what they had during WCIV, just with modernized forces. They've undoubtedly got newer fighters to replace the Rapiers and what-not that they were fighting the Black Lance with, and the Thunderbolts and Excaliburs are probably their primary heavy fighters. And the Intrepid has probably been replaced, as well, although not by anything as good as the Murphy or Plunkett that Confed uses. A few Eagle-class CVEs might be a possibility, though.

They presumably have what they can pay for. In 2673, when they had an immediate need for such craft, they could pay for twenty year old fighters... is there some reason they can buy ten year old fighters today? (Of course, we know the Intrepid went to Confed... although we have no idea why.)

As for the Landreich - they're in the boondocks. Where are they going to find anything to fight? Perhaps the occasional human pirate, but not Kilrathi pirates. The UBW is on the Kilrathi border, and we know from the WCP manual that Kilrathi pirates are still very much of a threat to human interests. As a result, the majority of Kilrathi pirate raids into human space are probably going to be directed at UBW interests, and somebody has to hold down the fort until the navy arrives to clean things up. Confed Navy is in the middle of peace time, and with no real opponents to challenge Confed's strength, the navy is going to be smaller, meaning that the weight of dealing with pirate raids falls on the local garrisons. Those garrisons are going to be militia forces, not Confed Navy. The navy won't arrive until after the raid is over, and someone needs to track the raiders back to their home.

Where will the Landreich find somebody to fight? Right across their border... the Landreich doesn't recognize the Treaty of Torgo, and they continue to fight the Kilrathi. Hralgkrak Provice borders the Landreich, and it's the home of the most well-armed and actively hostile of the Kilrathi warlords. And last we heard the Landreich wasn't exactly friends with Confed, either...

Furthermore, we *know* that Confed has been dispatched to the Border Worlds area to deal with pirates -- by looking at the same source you just used to prove that pirates exist (to wit, Confed is *more able* to deal with pirates than they were during the war when they couldn't spare *any* units...).

The Landreich no doubt has some excellent pilots, but they're starting to get a little grey hair mixed in with the black (or brown or blond). The UBW may or may not have as many older veterans (its doubtful that Hawk is the ONLY Border Worlder vet still in the cockpit), but I can almost guarantee that the ones that got in the cockpit in the last few years have seen more action than new Landreich pilots have.

Hawk wasn't trained by the Border Worlds. He didn't even live in the Border Worlds. He was a retired *Confed* pilot who fought for the Border Worlds because they paid his mercenary fee. I don't really see how the *year* between when we last see the Landreich's military (2672) and when we last last see anything with the Border Worlds (2673) would make the former "a little grey".

Case in point, the Landreich has fighters with corvette engines attached to them. Think of the time and ability it takes to strap a 20-year-old fighter onto a pair of engines made for a much larger ship...

This was in Fleet Action, when they were doing whatever they could to repell an invasion... by False COlors they seem to have a fairly organized military.

Not to mention, Kurger also seems to be able to skim some kind of ship away from ConFleet (That Destroyer when he defected, The Tarawa for all of a short while before The Battle Of Terra, The former Tarawa during False Colors)

The Tarawa/Independance was legitimately purchased Confed scrap.

 

[Quarto]

Umm, "Confed took the Intrepid"... is that from the WC4 guide, or something? Because neither the game nor the book imply anything like that...

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Umm, "Confed took the Intrepid"... is that from the WC4 guide, or something? Because neither the game nor the book imply anything like that...

... what about the flight instructor ending? The Intrepid is in the Sol System and everyone onboard (Blair, Maniac, two sets of rookies) are wearing Confed uniforms?

 

[Happy]

edit

 

[Ladiesman^]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF

Probably sixteen (Lances -- re: how many did the Border Worlds capture). I'm pretty sure they'd have to give them back to Confed after the conflict, though...

That's more along the lines of what I was thinking. They got the transport full of them.

 

[LeHah]

Whatcha think happened to the Dragons/Lances BWs stole?

 

[Viper61]

Originally posted by LeHah
Whatcha think happened to the Dragons/Lances BWs stole?

I don't know whether that was being sarcastic or not, but I'll give you a half answer. The BW probably couldn't have kept them. To build a Dragon cost more than "the gross national product of most governments" what do you think it requires to maintain one? Probably not in the BW's budget.

My guess is that they were either absorbed back into Confed to have their technology explioited for "legitimate" purposes, or maybe reinstituted as an elite SO's/Green Barrets/SEALS type-squad.

C-ya

 

[Raptor]

But what could you get in exchange for a dozen or so state of the art war machines? Quite a bit, especially if you played nice and did it without delay or publicity. In international relations, thse things usually work on a quid pro quo basis. And if the Landreich were able to buy things like the Tarawa legitimately, I would guess that the Border Worlds would be able to do the same as well, especially since the Border Worlders have a lot more worlds/resources, and seem to be bona fide Confed allies around WC. Iwouldn't expect them to be runnning around in Confed fleet carriers, but things like Tarawas and Rangers are good possibilties.

And even if the Border Worlds HGs were only trained to the same standard as the Landreich, there would have been quite a few of them since there are a lot of Border Worlds systems on the frontlines. Add in officers and men who actually fought for *Confed* (in the WC4 novel, it's said that the Border Worlds were integrated into the Confed war effort, one reason Paulson considered them de facto Confed worlds) and you've got a pretty good core to build on. Certainly those who were Colonels or Majors then would be out of the cockpit, but about those who were lieutenants and captains? They would be the senior men now, and they would have the training and the Kilrathi war experiance.

Best, Raptor

 

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Ghost
Couple of Q

1)Can you intercepr another ship inside the *hyperspace*?

2)Is the *Hyperspace* inside the territory or the jurisdiction of the respective nation?

The term "jump space" is something of a misnomer. From what we know, Jump Points are actually wormholes that connect systems to each other. Movement through these wormholes is nearly instantaneous--in WCIV we see the viewscreen as the Intrepid goes through a jump, and the entire sequence is over in a few seconds. Presumably both ends of a wormhole open simultaneously, so there is no time for a midjump intercept--instead one must catch the ship as it exits on the other end.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Bandit LOAF
... what about the flight instructor ending? The Intrepid is in the Sol System and everyone onboard (Blair, Maniac, two sets of rookies) are wearing Confed uniforms?

That only suggests that the people are serving in Confed. It does not, however, imply that the Intrepid is a Confed carrier now. The way I see it, the weight of the evidence points towards the Intrepid remaining a BW carrier:
1. In the cutscene, it still carries BW markings rather than Confed ones. For that matter, so does the Banshee Blair flies.
2. It is still captained by Garibaldi, who, last we heard, is a BW officer.
3. Why would Confed want a badly damaged carrier made from an obsolete destroyer anyway?

All in all, there is nothing that would force us to reject your theory. However, I think it requires too many baseless assumptions (we could, for example, assume that Captain Garibaldi is now serving Confed - but why?). We don't know why we don't see anyone wearing BW uniforms, but it's a lot simpler to assume the carrier is still in BW hands.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

1. In the cutscene, it still carries BW markings rather than Confed ones. For that matter, so does the Banshee Blair flies.

To the best of my recollection we only see the Intrepid 'Metallica' logo and *not* the Border Worlds emblem. I'll have to go back and check in detail, though (which I'll do when I get home).

2. It is still captained by Garibaldi, who, last we heard, is a BW officer.

I would certainly argue that, assuming the novel must be fit with the game, that Blair's posting as a flight instructor is clearly *after* the tour spoken of in the end of the TPoF novel. The intention of the games creator -- having Confed pilots training in the *Sol System* off of the Intrepid... and having people like Panther in Confed uniforms -- would seem to be that the Intrepid has become a training carrier for *Confed*.

3. Why would Confed want a badly damaged carrier made from an obsolete destroyer anyway?

On the other hand, why would they *give up* a destroyer, however obsolete? The TCS Delphi presumably belonged to Confed two weeks before the 'conflict', and might go back to them just as would the Princeton and the MSH.

All in all, there is nothing that would force us to reject your theory. However, I think it requires too many baseless assumptions (we could, for example, assume that Captain Garibaldi is now serving Confed - but why?). We don't know why we don't see anyone wearing BW uniforms, but it's a lot simpler to assume the carrier is still in BW hands.

But to assume it's a Border Worlds ship we must the *same* questions in reverse... why is *Panther* no longer a Border Worlder? Why are Confed pilots training off of the Intrepid? Why is the Intrepid in orbit of Saturn?

 

[WildWeasel]

Originally posted by Quarto
1. In the cutscene, it still carries BW markings rather than Confed ones.

We're talking about the Intrepid, not the magical transports from Armada. Just because you assume control over a vessel doesn't mean that it'll suddenly have your markings all over it. Painting takes at least a little time.

 

[junior]

Quid Pro Quo for the return of the Dragons - How about overlooking the method by which they were acquired in the first place?

Confed would probably offer a little more than that, but the method by which the Dragons were obtained is probably going to be a mitigating factor. As embarassing as the whole thing is to Confed, the UBW probably doesn't want people trumpeting that the UBW was launching offensive raids against Confed forces (which is how they got the Dragons in the first place).
Now if the Intrepid had picked them up while defending a UBW world...
As for the Intrepid in Confed hands - Navies like to use older vessels as training platforms. The vessels are old enough that their absence from the front lines isn't really missed, but the vessels are generally similar enough to a modern ship to allow for a degree of familiarity with the way things work. IIRC, the old battleship Utah was used as a target ship (for dummy weapons) up until the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor (where I believe some of the Japanese pilots mistook it their assigned target, and sank it).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Confed had a similar 'training carrier' in Action Stations.

 

[t.c.cgi]

It could also be an exchange program. Confed could very well be training UBW militia pilots in Confed facilities, or simply using Confed assistance. And as a formality they are all actualy IN confed training, but rather than get a Confed posting, continue their carrier in the UBW as planned, but as for who actualy possesses the Intrepid, I'll have to agree that it was transfered for the sake of training, and would make even more sense if they had decided to use Confed training, rather than spend even more funds to run their own facilities.