Cloaking devices and Flashpaks

That isn't proof: he took off before you even launch to attack, if I remember correctly.

As far as morality goes, we have a similar weapon today: the Neutron Bomb. It instead focuses on the radioactive aspect of a nuclear weapon than the kaboom aspect, giving personnel in the target zone a lethal dose of green glow, but leaving structures, equiptment, etc, relatively unharmed.

On the other hand, I also recall the flashpack "burned" everyone rather quickly. Explosive decompression may or may not be so forgiving for a death in a second or two. Plus if the reactor shielding is damaged from a torp, but doesn't overload, any survivors could die a slow death of radiation poisoning. Space doesn't work like atmosphere: if your ship is toasted, and you aren't on an escape pod before the weapon impact, you are just SOL.

As for why, since the Vesuvius' armor proved too thick for the Flash Pack, I'm sure the Nephilim probably have hides dense enough to repel it's effects. Also traveling to point blank range to use it is a downside, what with all those BFG turrets locking on to you as you sit there releasing the thing.
 
Originally posted by Needaham45
However, with torps there is also the chance for the crew to escape. Whether to be captured or to make it away, they can get out alive. With the flashpack taking advantage of killing the crew first, they don't have that option - they all must die.
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Indeed. That is the difference--the flashpak is intended to be a "no survivors" weapon. This means that total death is the weapon's direct goal instead of just a side effect--you can't just shrug your shoulders and say "too bad" that they are dead--that is, you cannot deny that your intent was to kill people rather than only to stop the enemy vessel.
 
Let us not be ridiculous. With the exception of the leech weapons, all guns and missiles are designed to kill. It's not ships you fight in WC, it's living beings, whether they're humans or Kilrathi or bugs. Sure, if you can take someone alive, that's great, but most people don't go around praying that their guns will somehow spare the enemy. People like Archer are exceptions, not the rule.
 
Originally posted by TCSTigersClaw
Well, you are right about that........Pliers did actually said that....But maybe he meant that he could prepare the other FlashPacks they Captured along with the Dragons to be ready.There was only one Flashpack availiable,but I dont think that they captured all these Dragons and only 1 of them had Flashpack
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Actually he said something along the lines of "What's this? None of the others have one"..

So yes, there was only one flashpak (proper spelling from the loadout screen).
 
Originally posted by Filler
The "morally wrong" aspect of the flashpak is that it was tested on civilian ships.
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Yeah, countless more civilians were killed by standard torps, capship missiles and energy guns.
 
my point is that in WC4, the reason why the flashpak was so evil is because tolwyn authorized testing on civilian transports and not because of their destructive power.
 
As Filler said, the fact that Tolywn, the Future Space Marshal who promises that there will be no more incidents of space terrorisim, authorised its testing on a civillian MEDICAL transport, was a very immoral thing to do. But burning to death inside of 10 seconds isnt a very pleasant way to go. But if there were a hull breach, what if you anticipated such a thing and were wearing a suit? Or you made it to an escape pod (do WC ships have escape pods?) The flashpak doesnt care about that. You WILL die, a very painful death.

And yes the flashpak does then destroy the ship by incinerating in from the inside.
 
I can think of much worse ways to die than ten seconds of burning. Indeed, most other deaths last more than ten seconds and are also quite painful.
 
The torpedo also destroys the ship from the inside out. It penetrates the armor before exploding.

But that's not the issue here. Flashpaks are not immoral weapons by themselves, they are no better no worse than torpedos.

For eg , Tolwyn and his renegade band of traitors used a weather control station on Circe to cause flood in order to attack defensless civilians. Does that make a weather control station immoral? Of course not. It's the use they made of it.
 
Originally posted by Filler
my point is that in WC4, the reason why the flashpak was so evil is because tolwyn authorized testing on civilian transports and not because of their destructive power.
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Just a nit-picky point here, but attacks like those on the Amadeus (sp?) weren't tests. (Unlike the use of the Gen-Select on Telamon.) They were part of the campaign to frame the Border Worlders. Hence Seether's "the Border Worlds take no prisoners" broadcast.

Best, Raptor
 
As far as I recall, the Flash-Pak was, at least according to the novel, a way of giving light and medium fighters an anti-ship weapon. The reason that the Flash-Pak worked as it did was because it no longer depended on doing massive structural damage (as the torpedo does), but instead concentrates on frying the inside, as TC noted.

This means you don't need a huge warhead, since you're not concentrating on wrecking the hull so much as poking a hole through it and then flash-burning the crew compartment.

Morality isn't the issue with the Flash-Pak... it's just that Confed ships, by this point, all seem to have Flash-Pak proof armor (as the Vesuvius did) and we didn't know enough about the Bugs to determine whether such a weapon would've done them. For all we knew, they could've been extremely temperature resistant... and heck, their hulls might well have just pushed the damned thing off.
 
Originally posted by Raptor
Just a nit-picky point here, but attacks like those on the Amadeus (sp?) weren't tests.
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Then why does Seether call the attack a successful test? That particular attack might've been a part of their campaign, but as far as the flashpak was concerned, it was a test.
 
No, that's me when I have to work till 9.30 PM (on a saturday, to boot), take a 30 minute drive home, and then get up at 6.00 AM the next morning to make the drive back. Pharmacy is a good job generally, but those odd shifts are a bitch. :D

Best, Raptor
 
Originally posted by WildWeasel
Then why does Seether call the attack a successful test? That particular attack might've been a part of their campaign, but as far as the flashpak was concerned, it was a test.
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And what were they testing? The Dragon fighters? Matter/Antimatter engines? Their ability to make others beleive they are Border Worlders? Fission Cannons? Cloaking devices?
 
The Flash-pak is a huge technological acheivement. As stated earlier, it gives a medium fighter the ability to take out a capship in a single hit. The problem with it is there is a morality issue with it, and not just because of the BL. In the WC games, torpedoes completely destroy capships for reasons that really do make me wonder how they think a torpedo can turn a capship from a km long mass of metal to a burned out hulk in one shot. In the novels it usually takes multiple torpedo strikes to cripple a capship, probably a much better view as the explosive in a torpedo could blow apart a piece of a capship. That's cripple not turn into a smoldering lifeless hulk. The torpedoes are usually aimed at points that would cripple a ship (engines, bridge, etc) but not totally destroy it. This would allow for many survivors to make their way to pods, or even take refuge in the deep recesses of the hull, waiting to be rescued. I don't understand why the game designers decided to blow up the capships (actually I do, big boom, big fun) but it probably isn't very practical, as most of the novels show. So usually, you're still left with a moral decision. Burn everyone inside to cripple a ship, or disable the defensive and offensive components of said ship, allowing those inside a chance at survival? Great weapons of war are outlawed because of what they do to living beings. Poisonous gas is a great way of killing things and leaving equipment relatively intact. Bio weaps are a great way to save yourself the trouble of killing every living thing in an area (cripple the combat effectiveness). Should we/BW be allowed to use them too, just because they are a weapon of war that gets the job done with more speed than conventional means?

Open ended question . . . your answer usually tells you what kind of person you are. In WC terms, are you a Hawk or a Panther (that would make a decently sobering thread wouldn't it).

C-ya
 
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