Originally posted by Quarto
...You are confusing quantity with quality. You could have a billion NT manuscripts...they're all the same source. Furthermore, they are a religious source. That's not to say they cannot be accurate - but they must be proven so.
...but as fas as Jesus in the NT is concerned, the closest to archaeological proof has been that ossuary they found last year, which may or may not have belonged to Jesus' brother (and, given that Jesus' brother isn't even mentioned in the NT...
...What about other historical sources? There are, IIRC, one or two Roman historical texts that make vague references to Jesus (and thus, there is some just barely-sufficient evidence to prove his existence - which is what I had said before, not that his existence actually couldn't be proven)
....Several other texts which would probably have talked more about the events in question are known to have existed. But no copies have survived, and therefore these texts cannot prove anything.
...nobody found the body because nobody was really that concerned about it...
...You must remember, you're looking at this through the prism of a Christian.
...There have also been Elvis sightings for years.
...What I am trying to say is that it is a matter of faith, because convincing proof doesn't exist. .
As I'd indicated earlier, you are sadly mistaken on all these points. To whit:
(1) They are most definitely *not* the "same source", as you maintain: We have 4 different gospel writers, Paul, James, Peter, Jude, and a couple other writers whose identities are currently not known for sure (That's about 10 altogether). Nor are our sources all religious ones (see below);
(2) As to archaelogical proof, I'd make the point that ancient writings (Dead Sea Scrolls, for example) are a form of archaelogical proof. Also, as I'd said, a great deal of the "proof" we have for other figures of antiquity consists primarily or even entirely of writings alone, with no bones/etc. to provide something more "substantial". Yet we believe that Caesar & Homer existed; to then say Christ *didn't* just because you don't have a set of bones is flat out willful ignorance.
(3) I don't know where you get your idea that James isn't mentioned in the NT; Fact is, he WROTE part of it (the book of James, not surprisingly). I speak here of James the brother of Jesus, not either of the apostles by that name (This James didn't believe his own brother was Messiah until some time after His death, but then went on to become a martyr for his faith). See also Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3, Galatians 1:19, & Jude 1:1; possibly also Acts 12:17 & Acts 21:18
(4) The NT writings make quite clear that the Jews, at least, were vehemently concerned that this Jesus' body not be stolen by his followers (and understandably so), lest His followers then be able to claim that He "rose from the dead" (see Matthew 27: 63-66)
(5) The Court of Common Sense: Makes no difference what "prism" I'm looking at the issue through; His existence is a fact. If you want to dispute His Resurrection or Messiahship, go ahead, but pick up any Encyclopedia. Most will have articles ranging upwards of 20,000 words devoted to this man. Do you really think they'd waste that much time & ink on someone who they weren't even sure *existed*?... If he never really existed, he would be no more than a footnote in the pages of human history. Instead, he is the Governor of human history (the whole B.C./A.D. thing...). No less than the ancient Jewish Rabbi Gamaliel - who was Paul's teacher in Pharisaism - warned His fellow Pharisees: "Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men..." (Acts 5:34-39). Indeed, the map of history these last 2,000 yrs or so has shown his words to be stunningly true.
As to Elvis, I'm a lot more inclined to believe well-respected historical sources (see below) than some hick from Podunk, AR who can't read, had a bad burrito last nite, and is intent on getting his/her 15 minutes of fame (after he/she finishes that jug of moonshine, of course
)
(6) Historical (non-biblical/non-Christian) sources documenting Christ's existence:
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-CORNELIUS TACITUS (2nd century Roman historian) - Cited Pilate's execution of Christ while outlining Nero's infamous persecutions of Christians.
-LUCIAN (2nd century Roman satirist) - Was scornful of this "new religion", but also cited Christ's execution.
-JOSEPHUS (famous 1st century Jewish historian) - To this day one of the best sources for non-religious documentation of the Jewish people & their (non-religious) history up to his time. Mentions Christ repeatedly in his writings about Palestine at that time. In fact, He seems quite fascinated by the man & His power (though there's no indication that He ever became a Christian himself)
-SEUTONIUS (2nd century Roman historian) - Cited Christ as a source of uprisings/public disturbances that happened in Palestine as a result of His teachings & "instigations"
-THALLUS (Jewish/Samaritan) - Here is one of the "second hand" sources you may be referring to. He wrote in 52 AD; his original texts are lost to us, but passages of his writings were cited/preserved for us by other writers. Julius Africanus states how Thallus mentions Christ's death when trying to explain the "darkness that fell over the land" after JC's death as an eclipse.
-MARA BAR SEPION (1st century) - While explaining to his son in a letter that those who persecute wise men incur misfortune upon themselves, cites the deaths of Socrates, Pythagoras, and Christ as examples.
-The Jewish Talmudists themselves mentioned Jesus in a number of places. And as we all, know, Jews believe that He existed (and some even honor Him as being a great teacher); the sticking point is that they do not think Him to be Messiah.
That's enuff convincing proof of his existence for me and a few billion other people on this planet. If it somehow
still doesn't satisfy you, well, I guess nothing will.
) to stop him from doing anything she doesn't want him to. They're mature people, I'm sure she knows what she's doing.
But whether after two or three days, he was most certainly dead when they put him in the tomb.
