And for some Humor...

[Ghost]

About the sex talk:

-If oral sex (to male or female) is good only and isn´t a sin if it leads to sexual intercourse, kissing (in the mouth,french kiss) and grabbing a tit is a sin if not leads to sexual intercourse?

-If God wanted that sexual intercourse lead to babies and only to make babies , the women would ovulate all the month.

-If the purpose of *Eat* is to nourish the body only , just eat some aminoacids,proteins,glucose and other things, not elaborated food, don´t eat things that you like only, just eat simple food to nourish your body.

-About the pre-marriage, marriage sex, in one post it´s a sin to have sex with your girlfriend, in my case i love her so much (and she too) , we aren´t married because neither of us finished the university and we don´t have enough money to go to live together, we have sex and according the Christians that is a sin.
In another post, Preacher said:

''You gotta consider the big picture, and the intent of the hearts of the people involved here, since that's, after all, what God does''

So what is the point?, it´s more important (to God) a paper (from the church) that say that 2 persons are married, than the love that both of them share (of course if there is not adultery not pets involved)?

 

[Farlander]

Originally posted by Ghost
About the sex talk:

-If oral sex (to male or female) is good only and isn´t a sin if it leads to sexual intercourse, kissing (in the mouth,french kiss) and grabbing a tit is a sin if not leads to sexual intercourse?

Yes.

-If God wanted that sexual intercourse lead to babies and only to make babies , the women would ovulate all the month.

Um...ok...

-If the purpose of *Eat* is to nourish the body only , just eat some aminoacids,proteins,glucose and other things, not elaborated food, don´t eat things that you like only, just eat simple food to nourish your body.

Monks often do this in search of a more spiritual existence and detatchment from worldly things, but it still is not wrong in any way to enjoy the taste of your food.

-About the pre-marriage, marriage sex, in one post it´s a sin to have sex with your girlfriend, in my case i love her so much (and she too) , we aren´t married because neither of us finished the university and we don´t have enough money to go to live together, we have sex and according the Christians that is a sin.
In another post, Preacher said:

''You gotta consider the big picture, and the intent of the hearts of the people involved here, since that's, after all, what God does''

So what is the point?, it´s more important (to God) a paper (from the church) that say that 2 persons are married, than the love that both of them share (of course if there is not adultery not pets involved)?

You must love God more than your spouse or anyone else. This means obeying his commands regarding sex with someone who is not your wife. But if a person is not aware sex between unmarried people is wrong, there can be no sin.

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Farlander
In order to commit a mortal sin, three conditions must be met...

I don't understand the concept of a "mortal sin". All sin is punishable by death, and is hence "mortal".

Originally posted by Ijuin
Regarding babies and sin, Jesus said of children, "The kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these" (I don't know the verse number unfortunately). If children are considered innocent by the Lord, then newborn or unborn babies would be as well.

Good point! I forgot about that...

Originally posted by Farlander
Having sex with your wife using artificial contraception is NOT fornication, but is certainly a mortal sin (though many Christian groups would contest that).

I would certainly contest that. Sex is a gift, not a dirty thing to be hidden away.

Originally posted by Farlander
The sixth commandment is understood to encompass the whole of sexual morality, which goes beyond the common understanding of adultary and fornication. Basically, the act of deliberately arousing yourself or allowing yourself to be aroused outside the context of normal sexual intercourse with your spouse is a grave sin. This would include masturbation, looking at pornography, "heavy petting" with your girlfriend/boyfriend, etc. It would also include using artificial birth control, engaging in oral sex etc. with your spouse. But as I indicated earlier, many Christian groups hold less inclusive understandings of that commandment.

I would disagree with much of that too. Certainly things don't just work on a purely physical level, but also on a spiritual one. When Jesus said "If your eye causes you to sin..." I believe he meant something like commiting a sin in thought, if not in deed. eg Coveting something belonging to someone else (as opposed to stealing) and lusting after someone (as opposed to adultery/rape).

Originally posted by Farlander
If you wish a more "direct" indication, remember that Onan was
struck dead by God for "withdrawing."

I recall something about that - I believe the actual wrongdoing was his attitude to God, not the act of premature withdrawal or whatever.

You people talk too much, there's no way I can catch up with this and I have to go to class. Oh well...

 

[Farlander]

Originally posted by Wedge009
I don't understand the concept of a "mortal sin". All sin is punishable by death, and is hence "mortal".

Some sin damages our relationship with God. Other sin destroys it completely. This is the difference between venial and mortal sin.

I would certainly contest that. Sex is a gift, not a dirty thing to be hidden away.

This is a clear cut and indisputable aspect of divine law. It is a gift, but it has it's proper context as well. I'm not sure what you can accomplish by debating this except to say you don't like it and will not give assent to it.

I would disagree with much of that too. Certainly things don't just work on a purely physical level, but also on a spiritual one. When Jesus said "If your eye causes you to sin..." I believe he meant something like commiting a sin in thought, if not in deed. eg Coveting something belonging to someone else (as opposed to stealing) and lusting after someone (as opposed to adultery/rape).

What is meant by that is to get rid of things that make you sin. It should definately not be taken literally (i.e. ripping out your eye). I think a good example is if looking at girls in bikinis causes you to fantasize about them, stop going to places where you will enounter them. If walking past shops that have unattended goods outside them gives you the urge to steal, don't walk past the shops. I think there is an aspect of bettering one's self spiritually in this as well.

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Farlander

You must love God more than your spouse or anyone else. This means obeying his commands regarding sex with someone who is not your wife. But if a person is not aware sex between unmarried people is wrong, there can be no sin.

Ah, but now, thanx to this thread (and specifically this post of yours), he IS aware, and can no longer go on like that with a clear conscience.

D'OH!!!!!....

Oh, and Ghost: Living together would be a sin, so it's just as well you two don't 'have the money' to do so.

To answer your question, it's the attitude in your hearts toward God that's what counts. It's nice that you love each other, but love ain't enough (TRUST me on that one!). God don't care so much about a piece of paper but you better BET He cares about your obedience to Him.

The thing about the "piece of paper" is that it's a visible sign of the invisible reality of your commitment to one another. That's why marriage is important to God. To go through the steps necessary to GET that "piece of paper" shows your commitment.

Nothing else comes close, because talk is cheap. When you are legally and in the eyes of the church/synagogue bound like that, it offers the best possible human chance of a lasting, loving, committed, lifetime relationship.

Nothing involving humans is perfect, of course, so that explains the existence of divorce, but marriage is the best shot any of us have to achieve the full human experience (becoming a spouse and then a parent, as you start a family of your own).

Originally posted by Farlander

It never says anything about any Holy Trinity in the scriptures anywhere either...

Matthew 28 proves you wrong, young Padawan:

"18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

There's yer Trinity. Questions?...

No, of course not.

Really?... Here's your quote: "The Church understands his sin to be the withdrawal, the wasting of semen." how do you explain your "of course not" in light of your original quote?... Either the SPILLAGE is seen as the sin, or the disobedience/dereliction of duty (to God & to his dead brother) is seen as the sin. You can't have it both ways. Plz pick a runway & land on it....

I do not think it is clear at all from the passage in question that the sin that brought Onan death was what you say. It is, in fact, not extremely clear at all, and the interpretation must be guided by Tradition in this case. (In my opinion, but I am no expert in Scripture.) In any case, I don't think further discussion on this issue will be helpful, since our sources for Scriptural interpretation are different.

GENESIS 38:8
"Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also."

As the lawyers say, "res ipsa loquitor" (the thing speaks for itself): He Knew they wouldn't be his OWN offspring, so he "spilled his seed", to KEEP from producing children for his brother. God considered this wicked behavior. How much clearer do you want it? Would skywriting help? Engraving it into the hood of your car?...

 

[Farlander]

Originally posted by Preacher
Ah, but now, thanx to this thread (and specifically this post of yours), he IS aware, and can no longer go on like that with a clear conscience.

He is aware that I said it, but that doesn't make him aware of the truthfulness of it. Of course, not giving something consideration, because you dislike what you may be forced to conclude from it is a wrong thing. So who knows? A perfect example of why we are not to judge others, I suppose - how can we know what is truly in another's mind and heart?

Wow, I just noticed I'm up to 17 posts in 3 1/2 years. Excellent...

 

[Ghost]

Thankfully, i´m Jew so i´m not sining.

Although marriage is very important in the life as a jew, doesn´t means that is a sin if you have sex without being married, isn´t adultery, and certainly isn´t ''fornication'' in the way that you use the word. (just read Leviticus...emmm that chapter that i mentioned tonns of post below)
When you sign the ''Ketuba'' the marriage act, it´s more like a commitment between you and your wife more than a commitment between you and God.

And who are you people to say that you, and only you know or don´t know what God care or don´t care, that is arrogance.

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Farlander
He is aware that I said it, but that doesn't make him aware of the truthfulness of it. Of course, not giving something consideration, because you dislike what you may be forced to conclude from it is a wrong thing. So who knows? A perfect example of why we are not to judge others, I suppose - how can we know what is truly in another's mind and heart?

Dude, I was only kidding....
well, OK, half - kidding.

I'm not judging anyone here, I'm just struck by the irony of it all. The poor guy comes here with a little personal inside info about himself, and comes away having found out that his, well, "lifestyle" is a sinful one. Whether he changes his life or not as a result, the point is, he got more than he bargained for. I'm no one to judge on that point, as that's pretty much the way I lived before I accepted Christ, too. And for that matter, it's only by His grace that I've been able to stay "clean" sexually SINCE then. "Solamente por la gracia de Dios..."

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Preacher
I'm not judging anyone here, I'm just struck by the irony of it all. The poor guy comes here with a little personal inside info about himself, and comes away having found out that his, well, "lifestyle" is a sinful one.

Wait there....Sinful one? that is according you and your belief, and that diosn´t means that is the TRUTH
A Sinful one according who, not God, but what you want to understand or belive nothing more. I (in the same way as you) can say that you are a sinful one because you don´t respect the Shabath or some other thing.

And i like the ''I'm not judging anyone here'' but ''that his, well, "lifestyle" is a sinful one''

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Ghost
Wait there....Sinful one? that is according you and your belief, and that diosn´t means that is the TRUTH
A Sinful one according who, not God, but what you want to understand or belive nothing more. I (in the same way as you) can say that you are a sinful one because you don´t respect the Shabath or some other thing.

And i like the ''I'm not judging anyone here'' but ''that his, well, "lifestyle" is a sinful one''

Although marriage is very important in the life as a jew, doesn´t means that is a sin if you have sex without being married,...and certainly isn´t ''fornication'' in the way that you use the word. (just read Leviticus...).
When you sign the ''Ketuba'' the marriage act, it´s more like a commitment between you and your wife more than a commitment between you and God.

And who are you people to say that you, and only you know or don´t know what God care or don´t care, that is arrogance.

Lemme remind you, bub, that it is you who placed yourself (& your situation) in the context of this discussion. You are asking many questions about what the church considers sin, and then you say "Christians say premarital sex is a sin, and here is my situation...". IOW, you injected your*self* into this situation. If you don't want your life to be viewed in a Christian context (or seen thru the lens of Christian sexual morality) then fer cryin' out loud don't ya be PUTTIN' it there, laddy!....

That said, let me say that it is not arrogance at all, mi amigo:

Unlike a Jew & a Muslim, or a Christian & a Buddhist, Jews & Christians share a common Scriptural base - your Bible is our "Old Testament". When it comes to the NT we diverge, but AFAIK, the OT contains nothing whatsoever that *condones* or advocates any sort of sex outside of marriage. In fact, much is made of the purity of a virgin bride several places in the OT (and if HER purity is important, IIRC that the groom's purity is equally crucial...). Anyway, If subsequent Jewish tradition has changed this in any way, plz let us know, but I'm basing my statements on the reading & study I've done in the Scriptures.

As I said, I don't recall seeing anything in there that made it OK for an OT Jew to sleep with his girlfriend, let alone whatever NT principles we Christians must live under. Actually, I'm genuinely intrigued & curious to know where in Judaism it says that pre/extramarital sex is OK with God. Is it in the Kabbala?... The traditions of the rabbis? is it a Reformed/ Conservative/Hasidic Jewish viewpoint? Do they ALL view it that way?... Plz elaborate...

 

[Farlander]

I'm not sure it is right to say that sex between unmarried people was not considered sinful by the Jews. It must have been, since the first Christians lived (and still live) by the Jews' basic moral code. I certianly know many Jews who consider it a sin. Perhaps it has something to do with the various sects of Judiasm or something - I'm not really up on all that. In any case, it certainly isn't a constant in Judiasm today. Similar to Christians, I guess - you will find many Christians who do not believe, well, pretty much anything sexual you could think of is a sin. I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion, but the fact remains.

 

[Ghost]

Nope you are wrong, this thread isn´t just for Christian POV only.
That we don´t have any muslim or budhist poster or whaterver religion do you want or that they don´t want to post is another thing.
And who are you to say me ''don´t put it here''??????

If you read the Torah there isn´t a single place that is against pre-marriage sex, you can read Leviticus 18 or any Majzor for Yom kippur or another thing and you will find nothing.

OTOH i can say that you live in a lie and are sinner because you believe in a man that called (and let others call him) himself Son of God or another epitete like ''God in flesh'' because it is against the OT.

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Ghost
Nope you are wrong, this thread isn´t just for Christian POV only.
That we don´t have any muslim or budhist poster or whaterver religion do you want or that they don´t want to post is another thing.
And who are you to say me ''don´t put it here''??????

Yo!; pipe down, there, Junior...

No one's saying it's only FOR one view. What I said was, YOU are asking bunches of q's about what we Christians view as sin. If you don't want to know, then don't ask. Then, after doing so for a number of days, you slap your situation down onto the table. What did you expect but for someone to put it in the context of "Oh, sounds like he's asking us what the Christian view is of his situation"... If you didn't want people to comment in that vein, you either should've kept your keyboard silent, or else posted with a disclaimer/preface something like this:

=====================================
WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! WARNING
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following situation is not to be viewed in the context of Christian sexual morality; it is provided for.....well, we're not really sure why we're putting this here, but it is strictly for entertainment purposes only. Any comments in the vein of Christian sexual morality will be met with petulant indignance.
========================================

If you read the Torah there isn´t a single place that is against pre-marriage sex, you can read Leviticus 18 or any Majzor for Yom kippur or another thing and you will find nothing.

OK, I will go back & review the Torah. But the failure to condemn (or even mention) a practice is *not* the same as to endorse said practice. What I want to know is, where in the Torah/Talmud/Kabbala/etc. is pre/extramarital sex specifically CONDONED?....

OTOH i can say that you live in a lie and are sinner because you believe in a man that called (and let others call him) himself Son of God or another epitete like ''God in flesh'' because it is against the OT.

Go ahead and say that. I've already admitted I'm a sinner; I make no bones about that. I don't have as thin a skin as ::cough:: some people ::cough:: around here seem to have...

 

[Ijuin]

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. "

--Matthew 7: 3-5

 

[Quarto]

Just so you know, I am increasingly tempted to close this thread if this downward spiral into nonsense continues, so y'all be careful what you say.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Preacher
OK, I will go back & review the Torah. But the failure to condemn (or even mention) a practice is *not* the same as to endorse said practice. What I want to know is, where in the Torah/Talmud/Kabbala/etc. is pre/extramarital sex specifically CONDONED?....

Failure?
You said that is a failure. that doesn´t make a failure.
As i said there isn´t a place where there is something against (or ecouragement )pre/extramarital sex.

And about the Christians and Jews sharing a common base....that is certainly in part.
Christians took what they wanted ot what they thought that was convenient from the ''Old Testament'' changed what they wanted to make a visible difference between jews and christians
You only took the 10 commandements some people´s names and some other minor things.

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Ghost
Failure?
You said that is a failure. that doesn´t make a failure.
As i said there isn´t a place where there is something against (or ecouragement )pre/extramarital sex.

Um, huhhhh?...

I'm confused by your reply, so let me state again what my deal is here, and I'm looking for:
--- My OT reading reveals not a single passage wherein pre/extra marital sex is in any way encouraged. On the other hand, I'm aware of numerous passages where it is directly or indirectly frowned upon and/or condemned.
--- Therefore, if you're saying that it's OK for a Jew to engage in this conduct, then you must be basing it on either
(A) Some passages in the OT that I'm not aware of, or else
(B) Some other (non-OT) source or teaching I'm not aware of, where either (or both) of the following conditions are present:

1) Pre/extramarital sex is specifically said to be a good, or at least an acceptable conduct for a a Jew, or
2) The whole of Judaic teaching does not contain any condemnations or other putdowns of this conduct

In other words, it either IS spoken of specifically in the POSITIVE, or it is at least NOT spoken of in the NEGATIVE by Judaic law/teaching. As I'd said, neither, AFAIK, is true from the standpoint of the OT, so if you are basing this on some other source (or else on some passages in the OT that I'm somehow missing), please share that with the rest of the us here, so we can be enlightened about the Judaic teachings on this subject...(As I'd said before, I'm intrigued to know what teachings there are that condone such a view...)

And about the Christians and Jews sharing a common base....Christians took what they wanted ot what they thought that was convenient from the ''Old Testament'' changed what they wanted to make a visible difference between jews and christians
You only took the 10 commandements some people´s names and some other minor things.

Um, AFAIK, the entire Jewish canon of Scripture, [KEY POINT>>>] as it existed at the time of Yeshua [<<<KEY POINT], is what we Christians "took for ourselves" and have called the Old Testament ("OT").

We most certainly did not take "what we wanted" or what was convenient (see KEY POINT above), nor *only* take the decalogue, "some people's names and some other minor things", as you assert. Let me spell it out for you:
===========================
1) Genesis/Exodus/Leviticus/Numbers/Deuteronomy
2) Joshua/Judges/Ruth/Ezra/Nehemiah
3) Samuel (split into 2 books for us, originally only 1 for you, I believe)/Kings (ditto)/Chronicles (ditto)
4)Job/Psalms/Proverbs/Ecclesiastes/ Song of Solomon
5) Isaiah/Jeremiah/Lamentations/Ezekiel/Daniel
6)Hosea/Amos/Obadiah/Jonah/Micah/Nahum/Habakkuk/Zephaniah/Haggai/Zechariah/Malachi

Altogether, that's 39 books (fewer by Jewish reckoning, since some were just one long book instead of our dividing 'em into two).

......And you call that "only" and "some minor things"?... WUWT?...

 

[Ghost]

What i meant with ''what you wanted'' is about the teachings and laws, not the books

About the premarital sex. it isn´t spoken in the POSITIVE nor NEGATIVE way in the OT and other books like the Talmud (this last AFAIK)

 

[Preacher]

Originally posted by Ghost
What i meant with ''what you wanted'' is about the teachings and laws, not the books

OK, so if we only took what we wanted of the teachings/laws, then the 1300+ pages that make up the OT (in the Bible I have on my desk right now) is only some FRACTION of how many pages those 39 or so books make up in *your* Bible?.....

About the premarital sex. it isn´t spoken in the POSITIVE nor NEGATIVE way in the OT and other books like the Talmud (this last AFAIK)

Wow. So basically you're saying that pre/extramarital sex isn't even addressed whatsoever as a moral issue in your Scriptures?...

(and by implication, if it's not mentioned, then God views it as a grey area and pretty much left it up to the individual person to make up their own mind?...)

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Preacher
(and by implication, if it's not mentioned, then God views it as a grey area and pretty much left it up to the individual person to make up their own mind?...)

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife. That's a pretty explicit condemnation of extramarital sex, but not of premarital sex... no mention of thy neighbour's unmarried daughter .