Wing Commander Prophecy: Boom Boom recipe

[Death's Head]

"It does if you pack 4-6 guns."
But you don't have 4-6 fission cannons, you have cheaper plasma and tachyon guns. And the Vampire carries 4 tachyons and 2 particle or 2 pulse particle(sometimes ions)

"Pliers's cloack works on some crystals that burn out quickly, meanwhile, the Dragon can cloack as many times as it wants to. It's cloacking tech is similar to that on the Strakhas."
Why can't they be the same? Maybe the equipment used on Kilrathi ships doesn't burn out the crystals nearly as fast if at all. The Dragon uses a Kilrathi-styled cloak, that doesn't mean it runs on marshmallows or something, I'll be the device itself uses the crystals far more efficiently, why else would Blair ask Melek to help Pliars build a better cloak? The systems would almost have to be very similar.

"The torps the Vampire carries are lighter, and when it has them it has less missiles."
The torps are lighter individually, but it has four of them. Wrong again, it has 46 missiles besides the torps, 10 of them medium.

"why can’t the fighter that originated from the Excal design, be called a Lance?"
Didn't say it couldn't, I just said it was silly, and if I recall, the game name comes before the novel name. And a lance isn't a sword, it's a long polearm.

"The Phase Shields, are on all capships."
Don't see phase shields for any capships except the Kamekh, which doesn't even have 10 cm of shielding. The phase shields in WC2 were proof against fighter mounted weapons other than the topedo, mace, and leech. WC1 ships "phase shields" usually can't deflect a full guns run from a heavy fighter.

"those guns were acquired in 2630’s"
You don't expect Confed to use them right away, do you? Even then, Confed only used prototypes until the Confederation used it enough to begin replacing the neutron gun. If the particle cannon was ready for heavy frontline use, I doubt Confed would use the neutron gun, which is a sorry excuse for a gun, until turreted.

"if the only reason for my survival is the poor AI."
You need low AI to survive in a strakha? Hehe. If the AI is so poor, how can you rightly say the newer ships are so hot without an adequete challenge? You ask how do I know they are new? The little in-game quote saying the Vampire was new. The Hellcat was the predecessor to the Tigershark by some years, even with the newer model.

"The chances of a Dragon wining with a Devil Ray are very small."
Hmm, based on...? I down so many Devils with a downgraded Dragon and uprated Devil Rays on Nightmare and I don't even use missiles or decoys. I don't have a joystick right now either, and did I mention I prefer not to use afterburners just to see how poor the AI is? The result was either Nightmare is like wc3 on rookie, or the Dragon might not be so bad after all.

"Or maybe you’re flying on a lower dif level."
Sorry to disappoint, no.

"Besides, I’m not there to protect they’re sorry asses."
Hmm, I thought at least one mission had objectives to do just that...Wouldn't necessarily have to do that either, I just kill the bugs before they get to most of my wingmen.

"Thy have their own wingman for that."
That they do, but as you point out, the AI sucks...

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm, how can you say that the Drag is outmatched?

It's quite easy. I just have to compare stats.

Our SSF, the Vamp, has 4 tachyons, and 2 particles, or 4 tachyons and 2 pulse particles, the Drag has plasma guns, tachyons,

??? So the Dragon is better because it has two Tachyons, two Plasmas, and two Fissions.

and a lot more available power, like infinate AB, which is worth a good chunk of change to me.

That of course is an advantage, but I've never run out of AB fuel in a Vampire either.

The auto track debate is tempting, but I'll stay out of it, simply for the fact that I've not flown the Excal and don't know its properties of it that well.

So you've never played WC3/WC4?

I agree with DH fully, with a few modern upgrades, the Drag could be Confed's greatest fighter, even if it ment downgrading a few componets.

Ok, upgrades. Shields would have to be stronger, guns replaced, more missiles added, improved speed and manuverebility, reduced size wouldn't hurt. Besides, you'd have to upgrade the Dragon, while you can just as easily upgrade the Vampire.

Same goes for the Drag. I'll take it any day of the week over the Vamp, Panther, or whatever else you can throw out there. If we ever do see a head to head WC, with all the past, present, and future WC ships, I'll see you on the battlefield, and we'll see which ship rocks the most!

J/K

Well, though the Vamp is better, than the Dragon, I'd take my Black Wasp against you any day.

 

[Earthworm]

"It does if you pack 4-6 guns."
But you don't have 4-6 fission cannons, you have cheaper plasma and tachyon guns.

But the Plasmas and Tachyons are expensive too.

Why can't they be the same? Maybe the equipment used on Kilrathi ships doesn't burn out the crystals nearly as fast if at all. The Dragon uses a Kilrathi-styled cloak, that doesn't mean it runs on marshmallows or something, I'll be the device itself uses the crystals far more efficiently, why else would Blair ask Melek to help Pliars build a better cloak?

Simply because they have more experience. Just because their both cloacking systems, doesen't mean they have to be powerd the same way.

The systems would almost have to be very similar.

No they wouldn't.

The torps are lighter individually, but it has four of them. Wrong again, it has 46 missiles besides the torps, 10 of them medium.

I wouldn't count RP's as your standard missiles... Not to mention that if the Vamp carries the light torps from Prophecy they'll have equal amount of power as the 2 on the Dragon.

Didn't say it couldn't, I just said it was silly,

That's the point, why is it silly to call it after a somewhat similar weapon that the Excal was named after.

and if I recall, the game name comes before the novel name.

He he, but no one ever tells us in the game that it's called a Dragon.

And a lance isn't a sword, it's a long polearm.

And did I say that it was?

Nevertheless, it is similar in few ways.

Don't see phase shields for any capships except the Kamekh, which doesn't even have 10 cm of shielding.

What? All capships have phase shields.

The phase shields in WC2 were proof against fighter mounted weapons other than the topedo, mace, and leech.

That's because shield and weapon tech keep improving.

WC1 ships "phase shields" usually can't deflect a full guns run from a heavy fighter.

Sure they can deflect that. Besides, where is it said that Phase shields deflect most fighter based weapons?

You don't expect Confed to use them right away, do you?

No, I excpect them to wait 20 years before using it. Like I said, the Particles were already in use in 2634.

Even then, Confed only used prototypes until the Confederation used it enough to begin replacing the neutron gun. If the particle cannon was ready for heavy frontline use, I doubt Confed would use the neutron gun, which is a sorry excuse for a gun, until turreted.

Personaly, I found the Neutron a better gun than a Particle in WC2....

You need low AI to survive in a strakha? Hehe. If the AI is so poor, how can you rightly say the newer ships are so hot without an adequete challenge?

Because I can look at they're stats....

You ask how do I know they are new? The little in-game quote saying the Vampire was new.

What the hell are you talking about? Where did I ask that?

The Hellcat was the predecessor to the Tigershark by some years, even with the newer model.

Of course. But the frame has significantly changed, plus it's a much better medium fighter than the 'Cat.

Hmm, based on...? I down so many Devils with a downgraded Dragon and uprated Devil Rays on Nightmare and I don't even use missiles or decoys.

Again, the poor AI. The DR has better armor, much better speed and manuverebility.

The result was either Nightmare is like wc3 on rookie,

Now that's just absurd.

or the Dragon might not be so bad after all.

No one's saying that it's bad. It's just not as good as it was.

Sorry to disappoint, no.

Why would I be disapointed?

"Thy have their own wingman for that."
That they do, but as you point out, the AI sucks...

So I'm suposed to protect them? I do what I can, but if I destroy a few fighters, and than just sit back and watch the show, I'll see some Excals going down.

Secondly, quit bringing PII into this. PII prices are *irrelevant*, because for all we know, they're from another galaxy.

Thou art mistaken. True, the P2 are different than in the main games, because of P2 being set in a different part of the universe, and over 100 years later. But I doubt that the price of a gun compared to ship would be that diferent in the main games.

And note that all but one PII guns are lasers. Utterly different technology.

So? There still are best guns, and worst guns, and they are priced acordingly. The fact that the tech is different doesn't make that much difference.

And, we don't even know whether the PII "Credits" are equal to WC "Credits".

Ah, but P2 credits are WC credits because P2 is WC.

Now, of course they're not equal. P2 is set 100 years after SO.

Why would they be, when the two civilisations have never met?

But they have met.

On that note, I would like to point out that the most expensive of the WC guns run as far as 100,000 Credits. That's almost the price of a Galaxy.

Hm, wasn't the fission gun from RF for 200,000?




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 02, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

You say the Kilrathi styled cloak runs on something else, what then? Until proof develops that nonborder worlder cloaks opperate without those magic crystals, I say the other cloaks just opperate better using the same magic rock. The improved cloak Pliars built with some imput from the Kilrathi supports, but doesn't prove Kilrathis cloaks run on those little ju-ju stones because Pliar's cloak still used the rocks but was remarkably improved.

Plasmas and Tachyons are expensive, but somehow I doubt they are as much so as the newer version of the tachyon gun, or half the cost of the fission cannon. In a way, the older tachyon was superior because it fired 3 times a second instead of twice. The fire-linked guns of the Dragon get more shots off per second, and are supported by a greater gun capicitor, which has a much higher rate of recharge.

"I wouldn't count RP's as your standard missiles..."
Wow, that a good one, you deserve a cookie, too bad I'm out. RPs come is 6 or 8-packs, which means that there is the equivalent of 6 medium missiles.

"Not to mention that if the Vamp carries the light torps from Prophecy they'll have equal amount of power as the 2 on the Dragon."
Power isn't an issue, since you insistently say that the Dragon must get new weapons anyway.

"He he, but no one ever tells us in the game that it's called a Dragon. "
*Taps the computer screen where it IDs those black ships as Dragons*

"And did I say that it was? Nevertheless, it is similar in few ways."
Good thing you didn't, or you'd be wrong again. The only things they have in common is they can kill, and can be carried on horseback.

I'll tell you another reason why Black Lance is a silly name, lances are cumbersome and limited in use-the Dragon was an agile ship in its day, even more agile than the shrike and the Dragon is a multipurpose ship that can take on any task easily. Your enemy would hardly know you had a Dragon unless you allow him to escape after seeing you in one, whereas a lance, well you would have to have a cloth over your faceplate to not see your opponent charging you with a lance.

"What? All capships have phase shields."
Hmm, no manual I read said the Clydesdale had phase shields, even if they are weak, they could say they are penertrable by normal fighter weapons. Not that I enjoy quoting the dreaded KS manual, but Phase Shields' service date is 2669, is that why you didn't post it? Other than AS, I haven't seen anywhere that phase shields were used prior to WC2.

" where is it said that Phase shields deflect most fighter based weapons?"
According to the WC2 manual, torpedos are the only fighter-mounted weapon capable of getting through, and phase shields are impervious to fighter guns and missiles.

"Because I can look at they're stats...."
Stats are for the gnats, show me how the guns are placed and how often they fire and recharge.

"But the frame has significantly changed, plus it's a much better medium fighter than the 'Cat."
First thing I do agree with. Actually, the frame dimentions would have to have been reduced, but they have similar basic shapes.

"Now that's just absurd."
It may seem that way, but the lack of AI is absurd as well. Proph Nightmare is closer to me to rookie than wc3's nightmare.

"and than just sit back and watch the show, I'll see some Excals going down."
Which would more than explain why wingmen are dying all around you...

"Besides, you'd have to upgrade the Dragon, while you can just as easily upgrade the Vampire."
The Dragon performs just fine, I rarely have to use missiles in the thing, so I take everything off except for a couple torps. You can only upgrade a ship so far(Vampire)before the componet lives are reduced to just a few days.

 

[KillerWave]

You say the Kilrathi styled cloak runs on something else, what then? Until proof develops that nonborder worlder cloaks opperate without those magic crystals, I say the other cloaks just opperate better using the same magic rock. The improved cloak Pliars built with some imput from the Kilrathi supports, but doesn't prove Kilrathis cloaks run on those little ju-ju stones because Pliar's cloak still used the rocks but was remarkably improved.

I dont know very much about wc technology and all, and i dont want to be technical anyway, but since Melek helped Pliars to improved the use of the rock, i think kilrathi cloaking technology would use that crystals, or at least be initialy based on it...
Now somebody can correct if im wrong, but i remember that Pliars created his cloacking device by analysing kilrathi ships...




------------------
Only a complete fool is absolutely sure about what he says
Are you absolutely sure about this?
Yes, i am...i mean...do'h

 

[Quarto]

About the Particle Cannon. Don't be absurd, Earthworm. If it's used in Action Stations, that's only because the author had a hard time keeping facts straight and made yet another mistake. KSaga manual, direct quote: "Particle Cannon Service Date: 2658".
While the KSaga manual has a history of irritating mistakes, I daresay that its history of mistakes is no worse than the WC books (uh... Hobbes flew with Blair off the Tiger's Claw?

). And since we only saw the Particle Cannon in service circa 2665, KSaga is most likely correct.

Thou art mistaken. True, the P2 are different than in the main games, because of P2 being set in a different part of the universe, and over 100 years later. But I doubt that the price of a gun compared to ship would be that diferent in the main games.

So the price of a car in the US is exactly the same as the price of a car in India 100 years ago?

So? There still are best guns, and worst guns, and they are priced acordingly. The fact that the tech is different doesn't make that much difference.

You're lucky I just put the cup of tea down, or else I'd be choking to death in laughter right now. So now you're saying that a jet fighter costs about the same as a prop plane

.

Ah, but P2 credits are WC credits because P2 is WC. Now, of course they're not equal. P2 is set 100 years after SO.

No, they're P2 credits. They are the currency of a totally different civilisation, ergo they are of a different value, unless you believe that by some strange, cosmic coincidence, they just happened to set their credits to the same value as the Confederation did.

But they have met.

Bullshit. I've just finished P2 (and not a moment too soon, let me tell ya), and the only evidence of any encounter was the Talon and its pilot that I had to rescue. That does not count as a meeting of civilisations... otherwise, I'd have to say that the Incas had met the Europeans a long time before Columbus. A statement which, quite naturally, would be laughed at. Now, if you met this guy (most likely a pirate or a Retro, since militia Talons wouldn't be sent off exploring another corner of the universe) who *claims* to be from another part of the galaxy, and has very little to substantiate his claim, would you immediately go and set the value of your currency to the value of his seemingly-fictional currency? Hmm?

Finally, note that Origin's P2 FAQ clearly states that while P2 is in the same universe, the Tri-System has *NO* contact with the Confederation. End of story.

Hm, wasn't the fission gun from RF for 200,000?

Good question. It might have been, but I really couldn't remember, as I haven't played P1 for so long. If it is though, that just proves my point, doesn't it?

 

[Death's Head]

200,000 credits? Didn't Halcyon say a 2854 fighter cost over a hundred million credits standard? If he did, then fission cannons might not be so expensive afterall.

There was some reference, I think it was in one of the novels that said a Sabre was at least a hundred thousand, or maybe it was several hundred thousand credits.

Quarto, do you have a guess what kinds of numbers of each fighter a Midway has, I've been looking over some numbers in the Proph era and might be able to roughly guess a fighter cost. This is really a long shot, but it could help figuire out a couple costs.

BTW, I'm hoping I will have the in-game gun stats in a couple weeks(don't know if my source will help me yet), so we could find out the Claw and other ships like that's shield strengths.

 

[Quarto]

I think that when Halcyon said that, the designers still weren't quite sure about what value to assign to the Credit

. At any rate, they would have almost had to chop off a *few* zeros when they made Priv, because paying two hundred million Credits for a gun would have been just a tad... irritating

.

As for the fighters onboard the Midway, I'm afraid I wouldn't have a clue. I could try to do a *very* rough estimate, if somebody told me how many fighters the Midway has altogether (I'm away from my WCs right now

).

And I can't wait for the in-game gun stats; be sure to find out where they are in the exe, btw, if that's how this person is getting them. It might give us some clues in regard to where WC2 stats are too, maybe.

 

[Earthworm]

[

]About the Particle Cannon. Don't be absurd, Earthworm. If it's used in Action Stations, that's only because the author had a hard time keeping facts straight and made yet another mistake. KSaga manual, direct quote: "Particle Cannon Service Date: 2658".

He he, but the Kilrathi had Particles earlier, because out model is based on theirs. Any smugler that traded with Kilrath at AS time could have bought it.

(uh... Hobbes flew with Blair off the Tiger's Claw?

).

Who knows, maybe he did.

And since we only saw the Particle Cannon in service circa 2665, KSaga is most likely correct.

So, since we didn't see rear turrets on fighters before WC2, they most likely entered service at that time?

So the price of a car in the US is exactly the same as the price of a car in India 100 years ago?

Um, no. If something costs 10% of the cars price, than the same thing will probably be worth 10% of that car 100 years later.

You're lucky I just put the cup of tea down, or else I'd be choking to death in laughter right now. So now you're saying that a jet fighter costs about the same as a prop plane

.

Of course no. But a gun isn't a fighter. Laser weapons will keep improving, but not to increase the price by a big factor.

[/QUOTE]
Bullshit. I've just finished P2 (and not a moment too soon, let me tell ya), and the only evidence of any encounter was the Talon and its pilot that I had to rescue.[/QUOTE]
What about the various mentions of ships being able to travel withing Confederation space?

That does not count as a meeting of civilisations... otherwise, I'd have to say that the Incas had met the Europeans a long time before Columbus. A statement which, quite naturally, would be laughed at. Now, if you met this guy (most likely a pirate or a Retro, since militia Talons wouldn't be sent off exploring another corner of the universe) who *claims* to be from another part of the galaxy, and has very little to substantiate his claim, would you immediately go and set the value of your currency to the value of his seemingly-fictional currency? Hmm?

Quarto, stop making stupid coments that aren't based on anything I said.

Finally, note that Origin's P2 FAQ clearly states that while P2 is in the same universe, the Tri-System has *NO* contact with the Confederation. End of story.

No, that FAQ says that Tri-Systems are isoleted from the Confederation. That doesen't mean they can't have contact or travel in that space. Australia is isoleted from US. Yet I can talk to you can't I?

Good question. It might have been, but I really couldn't remember, as I haven't played P1 for so long. If it is though, that just proves my point, doesn't it?

Which one?

You've made to many points to remember them all.

 

[Earthworm]

I dont know very much about wc technology and all, and i dont want to be technical anyway, but since Melek helped Pliars to improved the use of the rock, i think kilrathi cloaking technology would use that crystals, or at least be initialy based on it...
Now somebody can correct if im wrong, but i remember that Pliars created his cloacking device by analysing kilrathi ships...

Nope. He just made it in his spare time.

He was working for Confed, so he might have worked on cloacks for a short time.

 

[Earthworm]

You say the Kilrathi styled cloak runs on something else, what then? Until proof develops that nonborder worlder cloaks opperate without those magic crystals, I say the other cloaks just opperate better using the same magic rock.

And what proof do you have that it does use the same power source?

"I wouldn't count RP's as your standard missiles..."
Wow, that a good one, you deserve a cookie, too bad I'm out. RPs come is 6 or 8-packs, which means that there is the equivalent of 6 medium missiles.

But they're cheaper than standard missiles because of the lack of tracking, and smaller warheads.

"Not to mention that if the Vamp carries the light torps from Prophecy they'll have equal amount of power as the 2 on the Dragon."
Power isn't an issue, since you insistently say that the Dragon must get new weapons anyway.

WTF are you talking 'bout? The enhanced torps from Prophecy do as much damage as the WC4 torps, so it wouldn't be improved.

"He he, but no one ever tells us in the game that it's called a Dragon. "
*Taps the computer screen where it IDs those black ships as Dragons*

Hm, and Pliers or someone else couldn’t program the computer to say it's a Dragon? Dragon was a squadron that was flying the Lances IIRC.

Good thing you didn't, or you'd be wrong again. The only things they have in common is they can kill, and can be carried on horseback.

And they were used by the same type of warriors at about the same time….

I'll tell you another reason why Black Lance is a silly name, lances are cumbersome and limited in use-the Dragon was an agile ship in its day,

As agile as a medium fighter….

even more agile than the shrike

So now you're comparing the agility of a fighter to a bomber?

A fighter with a power plant that suplies much more power and allows for smoother and more agile flight?

Your enemy would hardly know you had a Dragon unless you allow him to escape after seeing you in one, whereas a lance, well you would have to have a cloth over your faceplate to not see your opponent charging you with a lance.

What the hell are you talking about?

Hmm, no manual I read said the Clydesdale had phase shields, even if they are weak, they could say they are penertrable by normal fighter weapons. Not that I enjoy quoting the dreaded KS manual, but Phase Shields' service date is 2669, is that why you didn't post it? Other than AS, I haven't seen anywhere that phase shields were used prior to WC2.

And how do you know those Phase Shields aren't a new type? If the Phase Shields did in fact enter service in 2669, than there are no Phase Shields in WC2.

According to the WC2 manual, torpedos are the only fighter-mounted weapon capable of getting through, and phase shields are impervious to fighter guns and missiles.

And the WC2 manual is for pilots flying at what time? The WC2 time. And are the Phase shields in WC2 able to deflect most fighter based weapons? Yes. Just because it says that in the WC2 guide doesen't mean it coveres any other types of Phase Shileds than those used in WC2.

"Because I can look at they're stats...."
Stats are for the gnats, show me how the guns are placed and how often they fire and recharge.

So, if guns are well placed, the type of guns doesn't matter?

First thing I do agree with. Actually, the frame dimentions would have to have been reduced, but they have similar basic shapes.

Greatly reduced. The T-Shark is almost three times shorter.

 

[Quarto]

He he, but the Kilrathi had Particles earlier, because out model is based on theirs. Any smugler that traded with Kilrath at AS time could have bought it.

Sure, if they didn't kill him first

. Besides those guns in AS would have been used by Confed, right? Well, I haven't heard anything about the US relying on smugglers for its supply of guns

. Generally, smugglers are not considered a reliable source of new technology. At any rate, the first _Confed_ Particle Cannon prototypes were built in 2637, and therefore couldna be used in 2634

.

*Who knows, maybe he did.* - Quite impossible. For one thing, there was only a few months between his defection and the Tiger's Claw disaster. I *really* doubt that after just a few months, Confed HQ would be *so* convinced of his loyalty that they'd send him to a top-of-the-line carrier. And then, he would have been immediately charged with treason upon the 'Claw's destruction, since he'd be the most likely suspect. Besides, Blair first meets Ralgha in WC2.

So, since we didn't see rear turrets on fighters before WC2, they most likely entered service at that time?

Oh, don't be silly. As every good Academy graduate and most three-year-olds know, Turreted Neutron Guns were first brought into service in 2645. Thus states the KSaga manual.

Um, no. If something costs 10% of the cars price, than the same thing will probably be worth 10% of that car 100 years later.

Hardly. I suggest you do some research, since I'm far too lazy to give you examples of how wrong that assumption is

.

Of course no. But a gun isn't a fighter. Laser weapons will keep improving, but not to increase the price by a big factor.

That's funny, because the Kraven Mk. IV costs a hell of a lot more than your bog-standard laser gun in P2. Furthermore, I hardly think nuclear weapon prices today are anywhere near to what they were in 1945

. Earthworm, you simply cannot make assumptions of that kind. I mean, will a laser pistol cost as much as an AK-47? Of course not. Now, Confed technology isn't anything like P2 technology, and therefore, the prices ARE different. How do you know that the Confederation's Laser Gun (which comes at the extreme price of 1000CR a piece) isn't equal in power to the Kraven Mk. IV? There's no way to compare them. So, there's no way to compare prices.

What about the various mentions of ships being able to travel withing Confederation space?

If you had paid any attention, you would have immediately realised that the Tri-System area is also a Confederation. Those mentions of Confederation space are all just a fancy way of saying Tri-System.

Quarto, stop making stupid coments that aren't based on anything I said.

It's called bringing real-life examples in, kid

. I suggest you pay attention to what I say, because it is based on what you said.

No, that FAQ says that Tri-Systems are isoleted from the Confederation. That doesen't mean they can't have contact or travel in that space. Australia is isoleted from US. Yet I can talk to you can't I?

My mistake. The FAQ does indeed not refute contact with the Confederation. However, the only contact we have seen was that one measly Talon. And you know, that Talon could in fact mean that P2 is not 100 years ahead of P1. After all, Talons are already a crap ship. They're not likely to still be in use a hundred years after P1. And for all we know, the Tri-System doesn't measure their time since the birth of Christ... makes sense to me, since they'd never heard of the guy

.

Which one? You've made to many points to remember them all.

I don't know

. You made me forget. Hmm... let's see... oh that's right. I was just saying that you cannot compare P2 prices to WC prices. And if the Fission gun indeed costs 200,000 - that's 4/5ths of a top-of-the-line civilian craft (the Centurion). I can't remember how much a Kraven costs, but it sure as hell isn't anywhere near the price of a top-of-the-line civilian craft in P2 (the Danrik, at 250,000), is it?

 

[Death's Head]

Pliars never worked on an Excalibur, and since as you pointed out, they were expensive, so they were quite rare. The cahnces of him finding a cloak off the shelf would be slim. He also claimed it was not form having worked on the cloak in the past, but a matter of putting together parts that would logically make a working device, which didn't work very well at first.

"But they're cheaper than standard missiles because of the lack of tracking, and smaller warheads."
They're not exactly dirt cheap, the cost still adds up with enough of them. RPs today are cheaper than say an IR, but it doesn't take a whole lot to balance the cost diff.

"The enhanced torps from Prophecy do as much damage as the WC4 torps, so it wouldn't be improved."
But the Dragon Torps are not the light variety, it's the Dragons torps that would be swapped for Firestorms or Pikes, whatever the new ETs are, it's been months since I played SO.

"Dragon was a squadron that was flying the Lances IIRC."
This is news to me, I had now idea Black Lance forces had such designations.

"Hm, and Pliers or someone else couldn¹t program the computer to say it's a Dragon?"
For all we know, Maniac could have done it, but why assume that beacause the novel uses another name, it's a fictitious account of a game.

"And they were used by the same type of warriors at about the same time"
Not really, lancers were trained differently than standard calvary or foot soldiers.

"As agile as a medium fighter"
Which isn't so bad for a 26 ton ship, which is twice as heavy as standard mediums, which some people can agile in themselves.

"So now you're comparing the agility of a fighter to a bomber?"
Nope, I'm comparing a fighter/bomber with a light bomber.
"A fighter with a power plant that suplies much more power and allows for smoother and more agile flight?"
Thank you, you just made the Dragon out to be better than at least the Shrike.

"If the Phase Shields did in fact enter service in 2669, than there are no Phase Shields in WC2."
The phase shields represented in the manual are 1.5 times as strong as the strongest phase shields of WC2, however those 100cm/110cm/500cm phase shields were the earliest proof in-game. 2669 could easily have been 2668, with a small error, in terms of the first true ohase shield, though I doubt it could just have easily have been 2629 or '39, ect.

"Just because it says that in the WC2 guide doesen't mean it coveres any other types of Phase Shileds than those used in WC2."
Which I just covered.

"So, if guns are well placed, the type of guns doesn't matter?"
If you can't hit the target, you might as well have PTCs are all the good it will do you.

The more energy you waste on missed shots, the worse off you'll be when swarmed by fighters that are hitting you 3 out of 7 times.

"Greatly reduced. The T-Shark is almost three times shorter."
How long is the T-shark? Like 14 m, right? looks like about 50 percent shorter to me.

Instead of making a second or third post, Quarto, the max complement is 252, and I might get stats from more than one game if the kind soul is so generous.

 

[Knight]

It's quite easy. I just have to compare stats.

Compare the old stats, but I'm not talking if it was serving for Confed here, if the BLH existed in WCP time, with the BL's under the table funding, it would beat the Vamp hands down.

??? So the Dragon is better because it has two Tachyons, two Plasmas, and two Fissions.

No, if you would finish the sentence and reply to the entire thing, instead of breaking it down into unsupported parts, then you might actually find some sense in all my ramblings.

]That of course is an advantage, but I've never run out of AB fuel in a Vampire either.

I run out all the time, because those damn Devil Rays, no matter how fast you are, there's going to be someone who can 'burn faster, and you've got to be able to keep up, and infinate AB really helps. The last mission in WCP's a bitch on my ABs, I'm usually happy to see that refueling ship, but am out so I can't get there any quicker!

So you've never played WC3/WC4?

No and Yes. I've played WC4, but not three, and I ment I didn't know the properties of the Excal, not just the autotrack, since the excal seems to be a bigger part of that debate than the Drag.

Ok, upgrades. Shields would have to be stronger, guns replaced, more missiles added, improved speed and manuverebility, reduced size wouldn't hurt. Besides, you'd have to upgrade the Dragon, while you can just as easily upgrade the Vampire.

Ok, let's do some revising. Shields, not very much stronger, and I'd imagine that some tweaking could get enough power to them to make them strong enough. 2 guns would be replaced by cheaper, lighter, and more efficent guns, and 2 would be upgraded by the same type, just newer models. Why do you need more speed? The manuverability of the Drag is just about right. What are you going to upgrade the Vamp to? If you put the drag to equal specs, where's the Vamp going to go? Get some "imaginary" tech?

Well, though the Vamp is better, than the Dragon, I'd take my Black Wasp against you any day.

Well, with me it'd be a close race.

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HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
Administrator: UBW 5th Fleet
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
I might be right, I might be wrong, but then again, I just might not care either. Got a problem with that?--Me.

 

[Knight]

Couple of supporting sentences here:

"The enhanced torps from Prophecy do as much damage as the WC4 torps, so it wouldn't be improved."
But the Dragon Torps are not the light variety, it's the Dragons torps that would be swapped for Firestorms or Pikes, whatever the new ETs are, it's been months since I played SO.

Ok, if they are as powerful, why won't one take out a ship? Don't give me some BS about stronger armor, because with stronger armor comes stronger warheads. That's a time honored tradition that I don't think the human race will abandon anytime soon. And if you say its because of the bug ships, shoot the Midway, it takes a bunch of torps to take it down.

"Dragon was a squadron that was flying the Lances IIRC."
This is news to me, I had now idea Black Lance forces had such designations.

News to me too. BTW, why would they program it? Anyway, Dragon just sounds like more of a fighter.
[/B][/QUOTE]



------------------
HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
Administrator: UBW 5th Fleet
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
I might be right, I might be wrong, but then again, I just might not care either. Got a problem with that?--Me.

 

[Death's Head]

If there was such a ship, Knight, it would be striking at the bugs as we speak, they might not even know what hit them if the cloak was improved. There could be a whole squadron sitting behind Earthworm's Black Wasp right now...

 

[Earthworm]

He he, but the Kilrathi had Particles earlier, because out model is based on theirs. Any smugler that traded with Kilrath at AS time could have bought it.

Sure, if they didn't kill him first

. Besides those guns in AS would have been used by Confed, right?[/QUOTE]Nope, they were used by smuglers/privateers/pirates and whatever else is out on the frontier.

Quite impossible. For one thing, there was only a few months between his defection and the Tiger's Claw disaster. I *really* doubt that after just a few months, Confed HQ would be *so* convinced of his loyalty that they'd send him to a top-of-the-line carrier.

They could send him on an undercover mission with Blair, in one of the Dralthis.

And then, he would have been immediately charged with treason upon the 'Claw's destruction, since he'd be the most likely suspect.

Why? If he was on a patrol with someone, not sending any unusual coms, behaving like a model Confed officer….

Besides, Blair first meets Ralgha in WC2.

I flown with Amazon, Boom Boom, and many other pilots in Prophecy, doesn't mean that I knew them, at least no more than you can from the cockpit chtter. Not to mention that WC2 is almost ten years later, if the two flown few mission together, they still wouldn't remember that all too well.

Oh, don't be silly. As every good Academy graduate and most three-year-olds know, Turreted Neutron Guns were first brought into service in 2645. Thus states the KSaga manual.

But that seems to be the logic here. DH, or maybe you, said that we didn't see them before WC2, so it didn't exist.

If you had paid any attention, you would have immediately realised that the Tri-System area is also a Confederation. Those mentions of Confederation space are all just a fancy way of saying Tri-System.

I realy doubt that the people that made P2 meant Tri-Systems as Confederation.

It's called bringing real-life examples in, kid

. I suggest you pay attention to what I say, because it is based on what you said.

Of course it's not. Now stop it!!!

My mistake. The FAQ does indeed not refute contact with the Confederation. However, the only contact we have seen was that one measly Talon.

But P2 is over 100 years after Prophecy. There's plenty of time for a first contact.

And you know, that Talon could in fact mean that P2 is not 100 years ahead of P1.[/QuOTE}But it is. The database specificly states the dates as being in 2780's (and please don't say that it doesn't mean anything since P2 isn't a part of Confed and therefore has a different time.

After all, Talons are already a crap ship. They're not likely to still be in use a hundred years after P1. And for all we know, the Tri-System doesn't measure their time since the birth of Christ... makes sense to me, since they'd never heard of the guy

.

No, you did say it! First, we only see one Talon, so obviously it's not a popular ship or anything. Just a lonely pilot that happened to run into an antique. Second, the P2 people are most likely from Earth. True, there's some talk about the people being there for 2000 years, and life originating from Hermes or something, but that probably isn't true.

I was just saying that you cannot compare P2 prices to WC prices. And if the Fission gun indeed costs 200,000 - that's 4/5ths of a top-of-the-line civilian craft (the Centurion). I can't remember how much a Kraven costs, but it sure as hell isn't anywhere near the price of a top-of-the-line civilian craft in P2 (the Danrik, at 250,000), is it?

But the Kraven isn't nearly as powerfull as the Fission. AFAWK there could be guns that cost as much as a Danrik. Oh, and the Centurion costs 200K, so the Fission is 100% of it.

 

[Quarto]

Nope, they were used by smuglers/privateers/pirates and whatever else is out on the frontier.

Ah, I see. In that case, you're right. It's entirely possible that they had it back then. But Confed didn't until 2637. So, in fact we're both right. Isn't that great

?

They could send him on an undercover mission with Blair, in one of the Dralthis.

No! They couldn't. Hobbes was too busy taking... small part... in the Ghorah Khar rebellion which started about the same time as the Enigma campaign. And Blair didn't even know about the rebellion, so don't tell me that he helped out.

Why? If he was on a patrol with someone, not sending any unusual coms, behaving like a model Confed officer.

True. But in that case, Jazz would have mentioned him when he and Blair went through Jazz's to-do list

.

I flown with Amazon, Boom Boom, and many other pilots in Prophecy, doesn't mean that I knew them, at least no more than you can from the cockpit chtter. Not to mention that WC2 is almost ten years later, if the two flown few mission together, they still wouldn't remember that all too well.

No. You may forget some guy named Harry, but you do not forget flying with your enemy. And there's no way of mistaking a Kilrathi voice, or the image that goes with it, for that matter. Remember the way Blair acted when he and Hobbes first met in WC2? Do you really think that if Blair had so much dislike for the Kilrathi, he would have forgotten flying with one of them?

But that seems to be the logic here. DH, or maybe you, said that we didn't see them before WC2, so it didn't exist.

Huh? The only time I said anything like that was with the Particle Cannons, and I based that on KSaga manual stats, rather than the fact that we didn't see it.

I realy doubt that the people that made P2 meant Tri-Systems as Confederation.

Why?

Of course it's not. Now stop it!!!

Is too!

But P2 is over 100 years after Prophecy. There's plenty of time for a first contact.

Heh. Gotcha right there. If that is the case, then why don't we see more Confed ships out there? Why is the Talon such a great mystery? And most importantly, why is there no Confed technology around? What, don't the two governments like each other? In that case, their Credits will most certainly not have the same value

. And it wouldn't change anything, because there are way too many smugglers out there. Admit it! P2 is not 100 years ahead of WCP.

No, you did say it! First, we only see one Talon, so obviously it's not a popular ship or anything. Just a lonely pilot that happened to run into an antique. Second, the P2 people are most likely from Earth. True, there's some talk about the people being there for 2000 years, and life originating from Hermes or something, but that probably isn't true.

Yes, I did say it. And I'll say it again. Now, to all our knowledge, P2 has a separate human civilisation. There is game fiction to prove it, but there is nothing, game or otherwise, to prove that, as you say, they are "most likely" from Earth. Besides, just how do you get a group as large as the settlers would have been (probably around half a million, at least) to collectively forget that they came from elsewhere? Especially since this would have had to have happened during the last three centuries, or so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but events of three hundred years ago (in real world) are relatively well known. And three hundred years ago, they had no computers to make data storage easier. During P2 time, that problem doesn't exist. It would be utterly impossible to persuade so many people to forget all about their origins.

But the Kraven isn't nearly as powerfull as the Fission. AFAWK there could be guns that cost as much as a Danrik. Oh, and the Centurion costs 200K, so the Fission is 100% of it.

Although I just said that the Kraven may not even be as powerful as the Confed Laser, now I'll say the opposite. How DO you know that it's not as powerful as the Fission? There is no way you can test the two out against each other. As for the Centurion... my mistake. <grimaces> I hate not having my manual with me

.

 

[Earthworm]

No! They couldn't. Hobbes was too busy taking... small part... in the Ghorah Khar rebellion which started about the same time as the Enigma campaign.

And who's to say he couldn't help Confed in gothering inteligence about somethign else while working with the rebelion?

True. But in that case, Jazz would have mentioned him when he and Blair went through Jazz's to-do list

.

There are people that aren't mentioned by Jazz.... like Hunter for one.

No. You may forget some guy named Harry, but you do not forget flying with your enemy.

No, I don't mean that you forgot the whole thing. But if you only knew him briefly, like one or two sentences, that's easy to forget.

Remember the way Blair acted when he and Hobbes first met in WC2? Do you really think that if Blair had so much dislike for the Kilrathi, he would have forgotten flying with one of them?

No, but he could forget anything that Hobes might have told him, and vice versa.

I realy doubt that the people that made P2 meant Tri-Systems as Confederation.

Why?

Why? They were making a Privateer game, therefore a WC game. They set it far in the future, but I don't see any reason to mention a Confederation unless it's the same Confed we all know.

Heh. Gotcha right there. If that is the case, then why don't we see more Confed ships out there?

And why should we?

Why is the Talon such a great mystery?

More than a century has pased since the Talon was introduced. I doubt that even in Confed space it would be well known.

And most importantly, why is there no Confed technology around? What, don't the two governments like each other? In that case, their Credits will most certainly not have the same value

.

And how do you know that some of the tech in P2 isn't from Confed, or from combined efforts?

And it wouldn't change anything, because there are way too many smugglers out there.

WTF?

Admit it! P2 is not 100 years ahead of WCP.

Now why would I do that when the game says that it is?

Yes, I did say it. And I'll say it again. Now, to all our knowledge, P2 has a separate human civilisation. There is game fiction to prove it, but there is nothing, game or otherwise, to prove that, as you say, they are "most likely" from Earth.

How else could those *humans* from P2 look like us, behave like us, and speek English unless they came from Earth from the not so distant past?

Besides, just how do you get a group as large as the settlers would have been (probably around half a million, at least) to collectively forget that they came from elsewhere?

If it has been some centuries, and if someone was realy determined on doint that, it could happen.

And three hundred years ago, they had no computers to make data storage easier.

Computer data can be altered.... or completly changed....

During P2 time, that problem doesn't exist. It would be utterly impossible to persuade so many people to forget all about their origins.

OK, I've been asked if I know how much the fighters cost, so now I ask you, how do you know how many people there are in P2?

Although I just said that the Kraven may not even be as powerful as the Confed Laser, now I'll say the opposite. How DO you know that it's not as powerful as the Fission?

I mean that while the Fission could take out a P1 ship quite easily, the Kraven would take only a little less shots than some other guns in P2.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 06, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

And who's to say he couldn't help Confed in gothering inteligence about somethign else while working with the rebelion?

Nobody said anything like that. I merely said that he couldn't be working with Blair. As you well know, Blair was rather busy in the Enigma sector at the time.

There are people that aren't mentioned by Jazz.... like Hunter for one.

That's because Hunter was considered dead

. By the WC2 makers, that is. Reference: series.v00, Blair's losing path conversation with Jazz. Hunter is mentioned by name as one of the people that died aboard the 'Claw.

No, I don't mean that you forgot the whole thing. But if you only knew him briefly, like one or two sentences, that's easy to forget.

I've met several people in my life that I will probably not forget for at least ten years, and I didn't even exchange a word with them; and they happened to be normal people. Seriously, Earthworm, how could anyone forget that they've talked to a friggin' alien?

No, but he could forget anything that Hobes might have told him, and vice versa.

So? Blair's obviously pretty damn good with names, since he remembered who Jazz was - even though they only met one or two times, flown once or twice, and then didn't see or hear of each other for ten years. And Jazz was, at the time, just another young pilot. Ergo, Blair would not forget Hobbes. Even if he forgot what Hobbes said, he wouldn't forget Hobbes' name.
Finally, note the way Blair reacted to flying with Hobbes. "Preferably someone... human". And you say that Blair might have flown - and, according to the WC3 novel, achieved a bond of trust - with Hobbes ten years earlier, on the 'Claw? Get real.

Why? They were making a Privateer game, therefore a WC game. They set it far in the future, but I don't see any reason to mention a Confederation unless it's the same Confed we all know.

Why? Don't you read SF? Don't you watch SF movies? Is it really possible for you to fail to notice that almost every single government in SF is called either a Confederation or a Federation?
And as you may know, P2 for most of its production time was known simply as Darkening. Thus, they weren't making a Privateer game. Ergo, it need not have been the same Confed from WC. It most certainly wasn't, in fact, unless the Tri-System is a part of Confed (which it isn't). The planet descriptions clearly mention requiring permission from Confed to settle planets. Planets within the Tri-System.

And why should we?

As you said, 100 years is plenty enough time for contact.

More than a century has pased since the Talon was introduced. I doubt that even in Confed space it would be well known.

Ah, but you forget the wonder of computers. It's not the people who would be identifying the ship, but the computers. They don't forget. And certainly, nobody would be foolish enough to remove old ships specs from computers.

And how do you know that some of the tech in P2 isn't from Confed, or from combined efforts?

Where's my Fission cannon, Earthworm?

Why can just about all P2 ships barely reach 440kps? Where's my cloaking device, for that matter? Did all this stuff just disappear?

WTF?

I figured you were about to tell me that maybe Confed didn't allow trading with the Tri-System. So, I figured I'd immediately mention the smugglers, so that a trade blockade couldn't be used as an excuse for lack of Confed tech in P2. Apparently, it worked

.

Now why would I do that when the game says that it is?

Whoa, hold it. I have never seen, read, or heard, anything in P2 mentioning that it is 100 hundred years ahead of WCP, or any other WC game for that matter. Even the Priv FAQ merely states that they're in the same universe. Therefore, the game does not say that it's 100 years ahead. It merely says that in the Tri-System, the year is 2780 or whatever. For all we know, it could be 500AD in Confed space.

How else could those *humans* from P2 look like us, behave like us, and speek English unless they came from Earth from the not so distant past?

Look like us? Well, pure coincidence. And lack of imagination. Behave like us? They don't. From what I've seen, it's a totally different culture. Speak English? I have heard Prince Thrakhath converse freely with the Emperor in that very same language. As you should know by now, just because the cutscenes are done in English, doesn't mean that the people are speaking English. Or do Americans speak Polish? Because all the American movies I've seen in Poland seem to indicate that that is the case...

If it has been some centuries, and if someone was realy determined on doint that, it could happen.

No, it couldn't. The American Indians still had legends about that Saint that visited them, and about the Vikings. That had been at least 400 years (for the Vikings) and around 700 years (for the Saint). Pretty darned amazing for a society with absolutely no information retention devices. And how would "someone" being determined help for the rest of the population to forget? What, "you are getting very sleepy"?

Computer data can be altered.... or completly changed....

Conceded. But our heads are beyond such alteration. Not because of lack of ability, of course (Hobbes was, after all pretty drastically changed), but because of the sheer size of the task. Would you care to do some surgery on half a million people? For that matter, how many amongst those people would agree with you? You'd be laughed at, Earthworm. "Why should we forget Earth?"

OK, I've been asked if I know how much the fighters cost, so now I ask you, how do you know how many people there are in P2?

Tricky question

. There are no hard figures, of course. But fortunately, there are some numbers in the game which can give us a very good idea. One of the minor planets, the name of which now eludes me, is said to have 1,000,000 inhabitants. Since it is just a minor settlement, and a recent one at that, it clearly is not one of the greatest population centres

. In fact, I think it's a mining planet, but I won't swear to that. Now, if we combine that figure with the fact (also mentioned in game) that the central planets are dealing with overpopulation and lack of food, we can safely estimate the total Tri-System population to be somewhere around 20,000,000,000. Now, in the second half of the 20th century, the Earth's population has doubled to about six billion. From about three billion. So, how long do you think it would take the small number of initial settlers to get to twenty billion? Why, even if they doubled every generation, it would still take 15-16 generations. That's somewhere around 450-480 years, Earthworm. Unfortunately, all our sources tell us that at that time (2200s), the Earth didn't have the means to travel such long distances.
So, to conclude, all evidence indicates that the Tri-System area was not settled by colonists from Earth.

I mean that while the Fission could take out a P1 ship quite easily, the Kraven would take only a little less shots than some other guns in P2.

Ah, but who's to say if the ships in P2 aren't so tough that Fission would merely scratch them?