Wing Commander Prophecy: Boom Boom recipe

[Chernikov]

On the Bugs and several controversial weapons: a while back someone did a fanfic that dealt with that rather well. Flashpacks left behind a vulnerable charred wreck, but because Bug ships are apparently compartmentalized extensively like several types of sea form shells (such as the shield towers) only certain portions were taken out (in this case most of one side, leaving the reactors exposed). The mace missile, upgraded with new tech, was quite nice too. Slagged down the arms on a cruiser. Big Grin.

As for the dragon debate, I believe the greatest ship of all time should continue to to play a part in the series. Although admittedly playing a part in terror and genocide, the Dragon is also a symbol of cleansing and atonement, having played a key part in the eradication of the main body of the Black Lance. Let it remain as a monument to the greatness we can achieve and the price paid when we make mistakes in doing so.

 

[Earthworm]

As for the dragon debate, I believe the greatest ship of all time should continue to to play a part in the series.

But the Lance/Dragon isn't the greatest anymore. It's outclassed by several fighters, and it's far more expensive than they are. If you had a choice between 10 Dragons, and 100 Vampires wich one would you choose?

Although admittedly playing a part in terror and genocide, the Dragon is also a symbol of cleansing and atonement, having played a key part in the eradication of the main body of the Black Lance.

The main body was Tolwyn, Blairs Dragon only got him to Earth.

Let it remain as a monument to the greatness we can achieve and the price paid when we make mistakes in doing so.

People don't usualy want to be reminded about the stupid mistakes they made.

 

[Chernikov]

On a similar line, does anyone have a shot (or several) of the WC4 Dragon loadout screen? I wasnt able to capture it, but it is the greatest shot of the ship I have seen. If someone could model with similar dimensions and style and port it to SO or Freespace I would be much obliged. Nothing against HCl, but his Dragon model just didnt do the great ship justice.


Earthworm: along with the remodeling above, why not upgrade the ship with modern weaponry and what not? A dragon with SO guns serves quite well. (Tachyons stay, Plasma becomes Cloudburst, Fission becomes Bug Plasma with charge). And in the new era, who is to say that newer structural components will not allow the Dragon to rival the Vampire, especially with thrust vectoring. Even if it cannot turn as quickly, it was not built as a superiority fighter that relies on missiles. It was built as a fighter to challenge anything in space.

As my reference to the main body of the black lance, I was referring to the craft and pilots on the Vesuvius when it was destroyed, Seether, and the twenty-odd dragons you kill during the course of the game.

People dont like to be reminded of their mistakes, but they should be. The purtose of history is to learn from our mistakes, so we can think of new and interesting ways to make fools of ourselves.

Besides, as I said, the Dragon is also a symbol of redemption and has no dishonor.

[This message has been edited by Chernikov (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

Oops, double post. Read the one after.

[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

I must be out of the loop here, because I have no idea where the ten times the cost of a vampire figuire came from. Here are some questions I have never seen answered:
A)Where is the cost of modern fighters/interceptors/bombers stated?
B)Where is the cost of the Dragon stated, anyone? So what if the Black Lance only had a few dozen Dragons, it had other interests to spend money on. I'm wary that Tolwyn's forces had unlimited resources, sure it had a lot, but you can only spend so much before Civies start asking a hellstorm of questions without seeing what the money is spent on.
C)Has anyone considered a Vampire might cost more with all those missiles and inflation factors?
D)(D1)Why do Dragon components have to be so expensive in 2681?(D2)Why can't the powerplant be just a little more expensive than standard fusion? It could possibly be likened to the difference between standard jet and ramjet or scramjet.
E)If new tech is so ridicuously expensive, why is the US building lots of F-22s with stealth materials, new instruments, new equip, thrust vectoring, ect? The Raptor kinda reminded me of the Dragon when I first read about it.

If you have ten Dragons with modern cloaks, you can kill the Vampire mother ship before the boosehound pilots even get out of the launch tube. The Dragon is not a SS ship, because ships built in that era were meant to take on any kind of ship from light fighter to capship. I think of the Dragon less as a fighter and more as a stealth gunboat or capship-interdictor. To me a ship's success is not based on how well the existing tech it has performs in 10 or 20 years, but how successful it was for its intended use.

Take the B-52, for instance. The plane is going to be used for nearly half a century before it is retired. Some people would call that one of the best bombers of all time becuase it has incorporated new advances well enough to continue serving as newer, far more expensive bombers come into service. The b-52 goes for around 50+/- mil, while newer bombers are going for ten to a hundred times that. You don't see the US halting all new planes and the development of new ones because of cost.

Space vehicles are no differant. Do you know how much we spent on the development of rockets? More money than you'll ever make, you can be sure of that. Now we have all those nice little sattelites and space tech we can use in our daily lives. We never backed down and forgot the whole idea of space expendatures because of cost. The vehicle that will ferry people into space as easily as Quarto across the world will absorb lots of money, big deal. At some point we will begin to explore past out little corner ourselves and maybe long off there may be something like Confed, but it won't come cheap. By spending now, we can make those nice dreams of gliding through space on a daily basis come true. It won't come by saying well, we can build a nice little ship for you, but you have to stay in orbit, or we could say if you spend more, you can see the entire system, and if you want, visit your grandkids in Alpha Centauri.

I could go on and state the real point, but I see that would take a few dozen more lines, and that would only fall on deaf ears anyway, so that's the end of this goofy post.

 

[steampunk]

That's a good question, why is the US building F-22s despite their rather prohibitive cost?

Well in the long run it might be worth it ... who knows ...

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Mess with the best, die like the rest.

 

[Earthworm]

I must be out of the loop here, because I have no idea where the ten times the cost of a vampire figuire came from. Here are some questions I have never seen answered:
A)Where is the cost of modern fighters/interceptors/bombers stated?
B)Where is the cost of the Dragon stated, anyone?

It doesen't take much thinking to figure out how much a Dragon would cost. That ship is huge, it has many high tech gadgets, and it has a power plant form a capship.

C)Has anyone considered a Vampire might cost more with all those missiles and inflation factors?

Missiles aren't THAT expensive. And 20 missiles, compared to 10 missiles and 2 torps from the Lance, isn't that much.

D)(D1)Why do Dragon components have to be so expensive in 2681?

Because you have to fit it with the latest weapons and systems. Otherwise it won't compare to the current fitghters.

(D2)Why can't the powerplant be just a little more expensive than standard fusion? It could possibly be likened to the difference between standard jet and ramjet or scramjet.

Because it can't.

If it was just a little more expensive they would put it on more modern fighters. The power plant that Dragons have is a minaturized version of the one from capships.

E)If new tech is so ridicuously expensive, why is the US building lots of F-22s with stealth materials, new instruments, new equip, thrust vectoring, ect? The Raptor kinda reminded me of the Dragon when I first read about it.

Because US has nothing else to spend it's money on.

If you have ten Dragons with modern cloaks, you can kill the Vampire mother ship before the boosehound pilots even get out of the launch tube.

Not if you have something to see through cloack. We don't know if the cloackin technology improved over the years, we do know that there were ways to see through cloack, and in Proving Grounds, there was a weapon that could see through cloack.

The Dragon is not a SS ship, because ships built in that era were meant to take on any kind of ship from light fighter to capship. I think of the Dragon less as a fighter and more as a stealth gunboat or capship-interdictor. To me a ship's success is not based on how well the existing tech it has performs in 10 or 20 years, but how successful it was for its intended use.

But we're not talking how good the Dragon was ten years ago. It was a great ship back then, but it's outclased today by fighters that are cheaper to build. You can slap a cloack on a lot of fighters, so that feature doesen't make the Dragon special.

Take the B-52, for instance. The plane is going to be used for nearly half a century before it is retired. Some people would call that one of the best bombers of all time becuase it has incorporated new advances well enough to continue serving as newer, far more expensive bombers come into service. The b-52 goes for around 50+/- mil, while newer bombers are going for ten to a hundred times that. You don't see the US halting all new planes and the development of new ones because of cost.

And who says the Dragon has to be similar to the B-52 in terms of the success of design?

We never backed down and forgot the whole idea of space expendatures because of cost. The vehicle that will ferry people into space as easily as Quarto across the world will absorb lots of money, big deal. At some point we will begin to explore past out little corner ourselves and maybe long off there may be something like Confed, but it won't come cheap. By spending now, we can make those nice dreams of gliding through space on a daily basis come true. It won't come by saying well, we can build a nice little ship for you, but you have to stay in orbit, or we could say if you spend more, you can see the entire system, and if you want, visit your grandkids in Alpha Centauri.

You can't compare the fact that few countries spend tons of money on space exploration to economics of something that's spread out over hundreds of systems. The Confed isn't that interested in exploration as it was before, they have other things to worry about, like an alien invasion, something that we don't worry about just yet.




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

"It doesen't take much thinking to figure out how much a Dragon would cost. That ship is huge, it has many high tech gadgets, and it has a power plant form a capship."
Oh really, now. So the Dragon has a different powerplant, it's not like the same exact powerplant from say, a Gilgamesh was put into the ship. The engine is M/A, it could be slighly larger than a fusion plant. It might even be smaller since far less reactants are used to power a M/A than a fusion. I doubt the engine would cost a few times that of a Vampire, once the research is done, all that is needed is building the thing, and Confed has much experience building M/A engines. I wouldn't imagine the powerplant even comes close the the output of a capship engine, so it can be smaller and hence less expensive.

As for the other high-tech "gadgets, well autotrack is nothing big, Confed has access to cloak crystals, even an old tech can put one together with spare parts, the fission cannon may be expensive, but the guns in privateer 2 rarely came close to the cost of the ship mounting them.

Why doesn't Confed put a m/a engine in all its ships? Why can't it by 2681? Maybe the engines are small and the ouput is not as great as the Dragon's, but the recharge characteristics are higher than earlier models, that could be attributed to enhancers, but I doubt it. Confed ships can make several jumps too, the old engines could make one or two before needing to refuel.

"Missiles aren't THAT expensive. And 20 missiles, compared to 10 missiles and 2 torps from the Lance, isn't that much."
From the lance? You mean lance torpedoes, don't you? I don't see any reason to believe Black Lance torpedoes are and differant than standard, or the stats would be different. Missiles are expensive, especially when you have a missile that takes four expensive missiles and adds a booster. Vampires have 8 FF, that's twice as many as the Dragon, and IFFs are not the cheapest missile out there. Then there's the FP, that can't be too expensive if Pliars can whip up a few in a couple weeks with his already hectic schedule. They are just in short supply.

"Because you have to fit it with the latest weapons and systems. Otherwise it won't compare to the current fitghters."
Why? The Strakhas were in service for over ten years after their shipyard was destroyed and they opperated fine, they just were not designed well enough to take on fighters, but rather mount surprise strikes on capships
with their two torpedoes. Their cloaks were still very effective against Confed scanners.

"Because US has nothing else to spend it's money on."
HAHAHAH! You haven't been in the US that long, have you? For one, important thing, we could spend a hell of a lot more money on schools since we seem to be falling to a rating similar to that of a third world country. In case you haven't noticed, we have a fair share of diseases around we could put money into beating. Community programs, municipal improvements, and so on are often underfunded. I could go on with equally great concerns, but to hell with that.

"You can slap a cloack on a lot of fighters, so that feature doesen't make the Dragon special."
Nobody said the cloak was the only thing that made the Dragon special, you yourself have been one to point that out. As you said before, it is larger than an average fighter, well with the apparent miniaturization of ship components in later years, Confed could throw in lots of of goodies we haven't even seen before. I'd like to see some anitimatter missiles with submunitions like they had in WC2 era bombers.

"It was a great ship back then, but it's outclased today by fighters that are cheaper to build."
Funny, I tend to find the ship quite effective against modern ships, even without its special features.

Again I wonder how its automatically more expensive. The Excalibur was an expensive ship too, according to general opinion, yet you can see it on stations and capships on a regular basis. Blair called the Excalibur something of a testbed for the Dragon, if that's remotely true, then costs should be comparable. I think he even ventured into saying the Excalibur had a kind of M/A powerplant.

"The Confed isn't that interested in exploration as it was before, they have other things to worry about, like an alien invasion, something that we don't worry about just yet."

You kinda twisted my words to make a point, albeit a lame one. Firstly, that exploration bit was to pave teh wave for the founding of Confed through a growing number of colonies and homeworlds WE may have in the future if money is spent on such enterprises. Second, they ought to be, you can't have to many sources of raw materials, stop exploring and meeting new species just because there might be an invasion. No evidence suggests that they are gearing up for an attack in any clear way. There are always going to be rare substances that Confed should seek out rather than depend on one or two worlds. Lastly, it is human nature to venture out into new lands. As long as there are humans, there will be exploration.

 

[Earthworm]

****Originally posted by Death's Head:
Oh really, now. So the Dragon has a different powerplant, it's not like the same exact powerplant from say, a Gilgamesh was put into the ship. The engine is M/A, it could be slighly larger than a fusion plant.****

Of course it could only be slightly larger, and that's the problem. It works like the one on a capship, and it's a lot smaller.

****I doubt the engine would cost a few times that of a Vampire, once the research is done, all that is needed is building the thing, and Confed has much experience building M/A engines.****

Of course it would cost couple times more. The Vampire uses a standard engine that runs on fuel the Dragon has an engine that gives it practicly unlimited fuel with great speed and agiltiy. At least for a ship that size.

****I wouldn't imagine the powerplant even comes close the the output of a capship engine, so it can be smaller and hence less expensive.****

Of course it's smaller. How would you slap a power plant from a capship into a 40 meter long fighter? But just because it's smaller doesen't mean it's that much cheaper.

****As for the other high-tech "gadgets, well autotrack is nothing big,****

Nothing big? It probably costs more than you seem to think. If it didn't Confed would put it on most of their fighters.

****Confed has access to cloak crystals, even an old tech can put one together with spare parts,****

I doubt the Dragon uses a cloack that runs on those crystals.

****the fission cannon may be expensive, but the guns in privateer 2 rarely came close to the cost of the ship mounting them.****

IIRC, the better guns go for more than 20K credits. There are at least two fighters that cost less than that. And considering that the second most expensive ship in the game is 200K, one gun would be a prety high percentage of that.

****Confed ships can make several jumps too, the old engines could make one or two before needing to refuel.****

Hm, I seem to recall that you can jump 5 or 6 times in Priv.... It depends on how much fuel your fighter has, not neccassarly on the jump drive.

****From the lance? You mean lance torpedoes, don't you? I don't see any reason to believe Black Lance torpedoes are and differant than standard, or the stats would be different.****

No, I'm talking abouot the fighter, which I prefer to call the Lance, but use Dragon since most people are familiar with only that name.

****Missiles are expensive, especially when you have a missile that takes four expensive missiles and adds a booster. Vampires have 8 FF,****

I didn't say they're not expensive, I said they're not THAT expensive as to consider that the price for a Vampire would be similar to a Dragon.

****Why? The Strakhas were in service for over ten years after their shipyard was destroyed and they opperated fine, they just were not designed well enough to take on fighters, but rather mount surprise strikes on capships
with their two torpedoes. Their cloaks were still very effective against Confed scanners.****

Because tech didn't change that much during the years of the Strakha. The shield and armor strenght went up a great deal since WC4.

****HAHAHAH! You haven't been in the US that long, have you?****

Did you realy think I was serious?

How should I know why US is making so many F-22's.

****Funny, I tend to find the ship quite effective against modern ships, even without its special features.

****

Yes, judge that ship against the Prophecy AI.

I can take a converted Starakha with it's orignal stats abd play through a lot of the missions. Does that mean the Strakha would be a great fighter at the Prophecy time? Of course no.

****Again I wonder how its automatically more expensive. The Excalibur was an expensive ship too, according to general opinion, yet you can see it on stations and capships on a regular basis.****

We don't see it that much in WC4, and in SO, it's not used on the front lines, and it's weakneses are shown when you hear Excal the pilots dying all the time. I wouldn't be surprised if the Excals we see in SO are at least 5-7 years old.

****Blair called the Excalibur something of a testbed for the Dragon, if that's remotely true,****It's completly true.

****then costs should be comparable. I think he even ventured into saying the Excalibur had a kind of M/A powerplant.****

It did have an M/A plant, though not as effective as the one on the Dragon. And we all know that the Excal is a very expensive fighter.

****Second, they ought to be, you can't have to many sources of raw materials, stop exploring and meeting new species just because there might be an invasion.****

I'm not saying that. But Confed isn't going to explore new systems and spread out even more as it did right after they found out the jump drive. The exploration is more of a thing that's done prety often, but not on a scale comparable to what US and other coutries are doing today.

****No evidence suggests that they are gearing up for an attack in any clear way.****

Nevertheless, they still have to prepare to defend themselves. And on a much larger scale than US, or any other coutry has to do it today.

****Lastly, it is human nature to venture out into new lands. As long as there are humans, there will be exploration.****

Of course that is the human nature. But the exploration won't be as large as it was half a century before Prophecy.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 01, 2000).]

 

[steampunk]

Actually the engine would cost more because new manufacturing plants would probably have to be built and manufacturing procedures might take longer/be more advanced etc ... You have to spend money to build all this stuff to make the new engine and so initial cost per engine is going to be high(er). Once you break even costs go down.

If the engine cost more just because it's a better engine as Earthworm suggests, then similarly we'd still be paying truck loads of cash to get a PII.

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Mess with the best, die like the rest.

 

[Death's Head]

"Of course it would cost couple times more."
So certain are you for something that was never stated.
"The Vampire uses a standard engine that runs on fuel"
Of course it runs one fuel, nothings free. How do you knowit's standard? The Vampire runs fine without afterburner fuel if that's what your're referring to. In the WC blueprints the afterburners are linked to the engine exhausts, but not tied into the powerplant itself. When the pilot calls for afterburner speed, hydrocarbons or hydrogen is dumped into the afterburners, ignited by the hot engine exhaust. To my knowledge, the only ship that seems to rely on pure engine power for burner speeds is the Dragon. Without the afterburner fuel, less equiped ships can only get up to the max speed, but the don't come to a full stop, and they can accelerate and reduce speed just like normal almost indefinately.

" But just because it's smaller doesen't mean it's that much cheaper."
Usually does. I see no reason why it shouldn't, either. The power demands are obviously lower for a fighter than a capship, so what is the point in making an engine that puts out as much power as a capship, when it doesn't need it? So, a smaller engine based on the same tech as capship engines, but scaled down to a fighter's needs could be small enough to fit easily in the Dragon, and with some extra work into making the engine get more juice(for the burner speed, or whatever) would take some credits, maybe enough to but an Arrow or two at the most, but not 5 or 6. If figure with the heavier duty engine than the Excalibur to account for afterburner speed and the added ship's mass, the Dragon would be up to about twice the cost of the Excalibur. Throw in a few component refinements(the Dragon is newer anyway, so they'll be available), a few extra decoys, a couple torpedo hardoints, and the price should be around 2-3 times that of the Excalibur. How would that compare with other ships? Well if you compare the Dragon with the Longbow*shudders*you will find that a lot of the stats are the same. The big advantage the Dragon has is the improved Excalibur engine which provides more speed on demand, and more maneuverability. The Dragon has a couple more meters over the Longbow in terms of size and the Dragon doesn't have a turret, subtracting from cost of the power for the turret and the tracking equipment associated(Blair threatens Maniac with a turret that if there was a gunner, there would be a witness, and chance of accidental caused drops considerably). Now the longbow is designed to carry a considerable payload, 16 medium missiles, and 4 torpedos. I've often wondered why ships don't increase speed when they drop off such a high mass in bombs, but I'm sure the Longbow's speed(or lack thereof) is attributed in part to the missiles ordinance which could easily be twice as "massive"(literally) as the Dragon's.

"Nothing big? It probably costs more than you seem to think. If it didn't Confed would put it on most of their fighters."
Oh I'm sure it has a hefty pricetag, but a fighter has a very hefty price tag. The lack of autotrack can be attributed to this, the fighters and bombers you can fly in Prophecy are production models, that means many of the features found on the prototypes may not be present. Also in production models, the powers that approve which fighter model is built must be the most feasable in terms of cost versus mission directives and acceptable military expendatures. The peace time fleet was built without a formidable enemy around, so why spend extra money foolishly(this may be one reason why the Bearcat isn't seen around much nor the Dragon as far as we can tell). Furthermore, while the Bearcat(a fighter with Autotrack) was in production, just one shipyard was producing Bearcats faster than Earthworm can reply to a post. Confed wouldn't be foolish enough(I hope) to have only one shipyard producing a fighter, you'd think they would have learned from the Kilrathi with the Strakha1. Now if Confed builds dozens a month, hundreds a year, that makes a lot of fighters with autotrack. You'll probaly say that's why they stopped building Bearcat's, well that's foolishness. That Bearcat didn't need autotrack, it needed to move the guns closer together. Maybe a newer model is still opperating with Confed, maybe it retains autotrack, but from Casey's perspective we don't see the majority of the fleet, so we can't truly make an informed judegement that Confed won't fit ships with autotrack at all these days, certainly we can say the budget might not permit large numbers of fighters to "waste" money on such a device in peacetime.

"IIRC, the better guns go for more than 20K credits. There are at least two fighters that cost less than that."
Like I said, rarely. 10 pecent cost of your ship(the expensive ones) per gun doesn't help a whole lot in bringing the price up 10 times, especially for 2 such weapons.
"5 or 6 times in Priv"
I hope so, you are a freighter of sorts! Actually, weren't those jumps shorter? Doesn't matter much. My point is that I seriously doubt that Proph era fighters consume afterburner fuel in jumps.

"I'm talking abouot the fighter, which I prefer to call the Lance"
Well torps aren't unique to the Dragon, in fact the Vampire can mount two torps as well. I personally don't care for the Lance designation, mainly because that's irritating when a ship has two names, also because that's a silly name to choose for a fighter. If Tolwyn admits to the Assembly that his Black Lance forces exist, someone comes across the Black Lance Class fighter and talks to someone who heard about or saw the ships, Tolwyn would immediately be implicated in the incident(s) where they raged terror and death. I know of the name, but where it came from seems to illude me.

"Tech didn't change that much during the years of the Strakha"
Oh, I see, well then the phase shields, particle cannons, antimatter guns, heavy duty tractor beams, and ITTS are figments of our imagination?

"Does that mean the Strakha would be a great fighter at the Prophecy time?"
Yes, it does. If you can survive a few missions in a ship nearly thirty years old, I'd say it was a successful design. I wouldn't say it was a great fighter to use against Excaliburs and Devil Rays. I didn't say you should be able to either, but the Dragon could very easily challenge a Devil Ray or several Excaliburs, without any upgrades at all. Now a ship that endures that well is a great ship. It's not like the Strakha is a very intimidating fighter, either, but some people would call the Dragon that, even if it is ten years old and we know how intimidation in ship design leads to better ships getting shot down(according to canon reference).

"it's weakneses are shown when you hear Excal the pilots dying all the time."
Really? I hardly ever see Excaliburs getting shot down, some t-bolts now and then...must be your flying.

"And we all know that the Excal is a very expensive fighter."
Yep, sure is. But why is the production model on board so many modern capships instead of recently commisioned fighters?

"Nevertheless, they still have to prepare to defend themselves."
Yes...perhaps, but many here have said that the politicians may not allow for heavy war build-up, when it's costing taxpayers bucoo credits. Politicians run the show, martial law was discontinued. Doesn't matter to them who dies as long as they get votes.

 

[Death's Head]

Ah steam, welcome to the discuss.
Yeah, might cost a bit for a short time, but the Dragon has been under development, at least some of its new components for years.

Nearly a decade later, this shouldn't be an issue.

Nice PII reference, I like.

 

[Chernikov]

Quote: "Intimidation in ship design leads to better fighters being shot down" -Death's Head
Which returns us to the debate about wether the Dragon is better than the Vampire or the Excal. Been there, everybody's got their pet. Besides, against a group of emotionless bugs i dont think fear and intimidation is an issue.

Quote: the Longbow's speed (or lack therof) is attributed in part to the missiles ordinance which could easily be twice as "massive" (literally) as the Dragon's" -Death's Head
Where are there any figures for missile or torp weights? Even if there are, would it make enough difference in the mass of the fighter to affect performance? When one deals with energies great enough to sling many tons of metal around at acclerations exceeding 200m/s^2, I dont think a little torp weight is going to make any difference. Instead, one gets to the point where loads come into play. Totally different story.

Quote: "From Casey's perspective we dont see the majority of the fleet" -Death's Head
Good point. How do we know the Dragons are phased out? Just because we dont get to fly the things doesnt mean they arent there...

Quote: "****As for the other high-tech "gadgets, well autotrack is nothing big,**** Nothing big? It probably costs more than you seem to think. If it didn't Confed would put it on most of their fighters."
The lack of autotracking is not necessarily an indication of economic hardship, although it may very well be. When faced with the track/notrack option, I often go notrack. Easier to pull of deflection shots. Rookie pilots dont live long enough to justify the expense, and those who surviver are good enough for autotrack to be a hinderance.

Quote: "I doubt the Dragon uses a cloak that runs on these crystals" -Earthworm
What else would it run on?

Point: the U.S. is making the F-22s because many of their old airframes are 30-something years old and getting past the safe flying point. Besides, it gives us an excuse to put our newer fighters in reserve and send the REALLY old crap ones to third-world dictators for under-the-table funding.

Quote: "it's (excalibur's) weakneses are shown when you hear Excal pilots dying all the time."
It's the same AI that you love dissing (admittedly, there's not much to dis) that results in the frequent deaths of Excals. Without good AI, very few non-superfighters can stack up to the Alien fighters in Nightmare mode (which is what I hope youre playing on)

I know theres more to adress but im getting tired. 'night all

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I don't respect your authority BECAUSE YOU HAVE NONE!!!

 

[Quarto]

Dammit, whenever Earthworm and Death's Head get into a discussion, there's so much information to be digested

.
Well, I'm not gonna bother taking part in the Dragon vs. Excalibur argument. But I do have to point out a few things.

The Strakha most likely did NOT survive for ten years without upgrades, as Death's Head suggests. Indeed, while there is no hard evidence to support my statement, note that no Strakhas were used since the shipyards were destroyed. Also note Khasra's dismay as Prince Thrakhath orders the destruction of the shipyards. Something along the lines of "We'll lose years of progress...". In other words, during those ten years since the 'Claw, the Kilrathi were most likely busy re-inventing the Strakha, and they would have been foolish to build it exactly like the prototype. Certainly, if the 2669 Strakha was so different from the 2667 Strakha, then the 2667 Strakha would have to be different to the 2655 Strakha, non?

Secondly, quit bringing PII into this. PII prices are *irrelevant*, because for all we know, they're from another galaxy. And note that all but one PII guns are lasers. Utterly different technology. And, we don't even know whether the PII "Credits" are equal to WC "Credits". Why would they be, when the two civilisations have never met?
On that note, I would like to point out that the most expensive of the WC guns run as far as 100,000 Credits. That's almost the price of a Galaxy.

Finally, what makes you think the bugs are emotionless, Chernikov? Everything points to the exact opposite conclusion. They may be bugs, but if they were emotionless, than they wouldn't say things like "This cannot be!" when they die. They would go down quietly. In fact, they probably wouldn't speak very much during combat (a-la Iceman). And instead of concentrating their fire on poor Casey, they would focus on their objectives to the point of ignoring the Confederate defenders (a-la Khajja the Fang).

 

[steampunk]

Um ... I meant "PII" as in Pentium II. Not Privateer. Since building the manufacturing equipment to make a PII and then selling them to break even is analogous to building a manufacturing plant that could make Dragon engines and breaking even selling those things to Confed ...

Will be more careful next time with my abreviations

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Mess with the best, die like the rest.

 

[Quarto]

That's ok, Steampunk. I was actually referring to _their_ constant references of PII gun prices. I actually missed your Pentium reference altogether, buried as it was amongst all those DH and Earthworm posts

.

 

[Earthworm]

"IIRC, the better guns go for more than 20K credits. There are at least two fighters that cost less than that."
Like I said, rarely. 10 pecent cost of your ship(the expensive ones) per gun doesn't help a whole lot in bringing the price up 10 times, especially for 2 such weapons.

It does if you pack 4-6 guns.

"5 or 6 times in Priv"
I hope so, you are a freighter of sorts!

Nope, just a fighter.

Actually, weren't those jumps shorter? Doesn't matter much. My point is that I seriously doubt that Proph era fighters consume afterburner fuel in jumps.

Why would the jumps be shorter? Besides, none of the fighters consume AB fuel, but they take it from the whole fuel supply the fighter has. None of the fighters in WC have unlimited fuel for standard travel.

Well torps aren't unique to the Dragon, in fact the Vampire can mount two torps as well.

The torps the Vampire carries are lighter, and when it has them it has less missiles.

also because that's a silly name to choose for a fighter.

Why? The Excal was named after a sword, why can’t the fighter that originated from the Excal design, be called a Lance?

If Tolwyn admits to the Assembly that his Black Lance forces exist,

The Black Lance forces are more of a codename for his forces which could very well originate from the most dangerous fighter those forces have.

someone comes across the Black Lance Class fighter and talks to someone who heard about or saw the ships, Tolwyn would immediately be implicated in the incident(s) where they raged terror and death.

That doesn’t make any sense…..

I know of the name, but where it came from seems to illude me.

It’s in the novel.

Oh, I see, well then the phase shields,

I see you don’t know your WC as well as you think you do. The Phase Shields, are on all capships.

Aditionaly, Phase shields that can’t be penetrated by fighter based weponary have already been seen in AS.

particle cannons,

IIRC, the KS manual says those guns were acquired in 2630’s. Correct me if I’m wrong. Aditonaly though, they were already seen in AS.

antimatter guns,

I think the KS manual says something about that too. I’ll check later.

heavy duty tractor beams

Wha? Tractor beams existed for hundreds of years.

and ITTS are figments of our imagination?

That probably is new.

Yes, it does. If you can survive a few missions in a ship nearly thirty years old, I'd say it was a successful design.

Not if the only reason for my survival is the poor AI.

I wouldn't say it was a great fighter to use against Excaliburs and Devil Rays. I didn't say you should be able to either, but the Dragon could very easily challenge a Devil Ray or several Excaliburs, without any upgrades at all.

The chances of a Dragon wining with a Devil Ray are very small.

Really? I hardly ever see Excaliburs getting shot down, some t-bolts now and then...must be your flying.

Or maybe you’re flying on a lower dif level.

Besides, I’m not there to protect they’re sorry asses. Thy have their own wingman for that.

Yep, sure is. But why is the production model on board so many modern capships instead of recently commisioned fighters?

How do you know those are new fighters? Their guns are the same as they were in WC4, they have the same amount of missiles, speed and armor are the same. The only thing that was improved were the shields. Who knows, those Excals could be from the early production, and they just happened to survive that long.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 02, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Where are there any figures for missile or torp weights? Even if there are, would it make enough difference in the mass of the fighter to affect performance? When one deals with energies great enough to sling many tons of metal around at acclerations exceeding 200m/s^2, I dont think a little torp weight is going to make any difference. Instead, one gets to the point where loads come into play. Totally different story.

Actualy, torps do matter. In the WC4 novel, Blair talks about seing a fighter that traveled faster than 400kps, but must have carried torps, and that part didn't make sense to him or anyone else. If you have a huge torp, like 10m or longer they will definetly matter.

Good point. How do we know the Dragons are phased out? Just because we dont get to fly the things doesnt mean they arent there...

Because they're expensive, and outmatched by new fighters.

Quote: "I doubt the Dragon uses a cloak that runs on these crystals" -Earthworm
What else would it run on?

?? Pliers's cloack works on some crystals that burn out quickly, meanwhile, the Dragon can cloack as many times as it wants to. It's cloacking tech is similar to that on the Strakhas.

I have to go now, I'll try to respond to the rest later.

 

[Knight]

Earthworm, how can you say that the Drag is outmatched? Our SSF, the Vamp, has 4 tachyons, and 2 particles, or 4 tachyons and 2 pulse particles, the Drag has plasma guns, tachyons, and a lot more available power, like infinate AB, which is worth a good chunk of change to me. The auto track debate is tempting, but I'll stay out of it, simply for the fact that I've not flown the Excal and don't know its properties of it that well. I agree with DH fully, with a few modern upgrades, the Drag could be Confed's greatest fighter, even if it ment downgrading a few componets. Just because something is new, doesn't mean jack to what's old. I'd rather have a stock 1966 Chevelle Super Sport, than a brand new Covette. Same goes for the Drag. I'll take it any day of the week over the Vamp, Panther, or whatever else you can throw out there. If we ever do see a head to head WC, with all the past, present, and future WC ships, I'll see you on the battlefield, and we'll see which ship rocks the most!

J/K.

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HTML Assistant: WC Space Command
Administrator: UBW 5th Fleet
Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
I might be right, I might be wrong, but then again, I just might not care either. Got a problem with that?--Me.

 

[Twister]

why the dragon isn't in serves?

same reason the german stuka dive bomder and the mesersmich (<--spelling!) arn't in serves today, they still kick ass, but it's just that there's something better om the market...

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When I'm in the air...
I'm indestructible.
No one can stop me...
But they try.
Realy WC fans support the WCSCRP

[This message has been edited by Twister (edited May 02, 2000).]