What is with the Nephilim?

[Earthworm]

As I mentioned prior, if they were cutting corners why did they build the Vesuvius? Big carriers like the Vesuvius are expensive and they were building at least 2.

Because Tolwyn, a powerfull man at the time wanted them. Besides, after the war was over, all Confed had left were VERY few heavy cariers. They had to build something.

Then there's the Bearcat production line. Why build a new class of fighter when you've already got the Excalibur (4yrs old at this time?) & there's no obvious enemy?

Because fighters like the Hellcat or Arrow are begining to shoow age, and the Excal is more expensive than the Bearcat.

What good is having so many bombers if most of them get wasted as you've stated before?

What good is having one Dragon that'll most likelly get wasted?

If the Dragon, with all it's perks, is so unbelievably great then it would be able to do a job that might require all those bombers with far less numbers.

The Dragon is still a fighter, with only torpedo hardpoints. Just because it could kick the crap out of any fighter at it's time doesn't mean it could replace a whole damn squadron of bombers.

In the era that the Dragon was designed, the Flashpack was also a relevant weapon. A single 1 took out the Ella Superbase or the Vesuvius herself. And with her wonderful cloak, don't tell me a single Dragon couldn't pull this off.

The Flashpack didn't take out Ella though.

And to take out the Vesuvius it had to be fired inside the hangar, an extremly tricky manuver. What good is the FP, if already at the WC4 time Confed could make shields that can stop that weapon.

This would put you in the superior position. Suppose Confed's fighters' got their collective asses kicked by some Kilrathi super fighter? That would give the Kilrathi the advantage - even if Confed still had it's capship fleet intact.

Capital ships win wars. Not fighter.

You have been stating that the Dragon, with all it's perks, is a superior fighter capable of annihilating all opposition with ease.

I've been stating all the time that the Dragon can elimanate almost eny fighter from the WC4 time without much problems. Obviously you haven't been listening.

With that comes the implication that it could carry out the roles of any fighter/bomber currently existing, but do it better.

It can't replace a bomber unless it gets more torp hardpoints. Period.

. We all saw how a small force of Strakha's sank the Tiger's Claw with impunity.

Small wing? The three heavy variants of the Strakha we see in the WC2 intro finish of the Claw, but there was an attack by Strakhas a little earlier that put out her hangar ound gave a lot of damage. So don't say that it was a small wing.

What I'm saying is that a fighter, no matter how advanced, couldn't tip the scales in favor of any given side.

And I've never said that it could. So what's your point.

Finally it wasn't an Excal but a T-Bomb.

The T-bomb wouldn't fly itself to Kilrah. A capship couldn't drop the T-bomb from orbit. It had to be done by a fighter. One that is fast, and capable to make a stealthy aproach.

Now you're proving my point. You're suggesting that with skilled pilots, a statistically inferior fighter could cope with a statistically superior fighter.

No, I'm sugesting that TWO slightly inferior fighters could destroy it. Strength in numbers.

Your continued insistence in pointing out the Dragon's advantages coupled with your insistence that nothing can topple the Dragon because of those advantages is reliance on paper stats.

BS. If you would take out the Dragons cloack it's survival rate would imedietly drop because it's speed and manuverebility are average at best, and it presents such a huge target. But if the damn thing would cloak, and drop a missile behind you later you wouldn't stand a chance.

Perhaps but it can be done. Remember pilot skill.

Pilot skills aren't nearly as important when you're so heavily outnumbered. Like I said, the Gothri could run circles around one of the 'stars, but the other two would fry it in a matter of seconds.

You've mentioned before that missiles are effective, throughout the WCU. In this case the Gothri could've fired off a number of missiles, distracting the Morningstars. And I think we've all seen how quickly a fighter can take down another fighter if the aims good. The odds could get evened very quickly.

Yeah, true. If you assume that the Morningstars wouldn't fire any missile at the same time. If they are in missile range, the Gothri sure as hell is too.

Wouldn't you say, that despite any perceived inferiority on the Epee's part, you'd still have a good chance of victory.

No, considering that the Morningstar could fire the Mace long before it was in range. I would then either have to evade, or die. If I evade, the 'star gets on my tale and fires a missile.

So, a Banshee can do the same thing. Dragon pops out of claok, spilling missiles. Banshee dodges, dropping decoys & releasing it's own missiles, say FFs. Radar picks up the Dragon the moment it comes out of cloak so the Banshee pilot would have a good chance.

Wha? The Dragon is behind the Banshee. Therefore it would have to turn to even get a lock while Dragons missiles lock while cloaked. He can drop out of cloak right behind the Banshee and fire few missiles. The Banshee pilot doesn't even know what hit him. Remember the scene from WC4, where the three Banshees are destroyed by two Excals in the dead zone? Well, they had the element of surprise, something the cloaked Dragon definetly would too. In that scene one of the Banshees was dead before they knew what was up. Even if the remaining Banshees had shields and working radar, they would have died quickly. And that's when the Banshees had the advantage of numbers.

Or what if the Banshee drops mines like the 1 Seether had?

How can the Banshee drop mines if it's dead? It won't have time to react like I've said over a million times already.

Oh yeah. Someone once said that you could kill Seether if you dropped lots of decoys really quickly once the fighter started. This could be another way to discourage a Dragon from launching this sort of attack. Besides when someone cloaks it's likely that they'll attack from the rear.

Of course they'll attack from behind. And they'll kill you as soon as the uncloak. Besides, decoys don't kill fighters.




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited October 15, 2000).]

 

[Wedge009]

I can't really tell who's arguing what, and I haven't played WC4 for a long time, but can you fire weapons, charge up weapons, and lock missiles when cloaked? If you can't I'm sure there's plenty of time to react if the pilot kept an eye on the radar.

Also, Earthworm?

"Capital ships win wars. Not fighter."

They do if your name is Christopher Blair.

 

[Cricket]

I dunno, two torpedoes can pretty much take out any capship. And it'd be a lot easier to escort in a Dragon then a Longbow. But with a cloak, you wouldn't really need to either.

 

[Wolf Dog]

I dunno, two torpedoes can pretty much take out any capship. And it'd be a lot easier to escort in a Dragon then a Longbow. But with a cloak, you wouldn't really need to either.

In the games. But it took a lot more than that to dent a Hakaga.

 

[Penguin]

I've had enough. Grinding out these long posts to have them meticulously picked too pieces has lost it's attraction.
Anyways here's a brief summary of what's been debated on in this thread for the last couple days. As far back as October 6.
This list doesn't cover everything that's been touched on in this whole thread (I haven't got that much time

) and I probably missed a few things.

Taking out Barracudas.
Taking out corvettes.
Taking out the corvette's rear turret.
Organic ships versus artificial ships.
Layout of capship turrets.
Confed dealing with multiple wormhole fleets.
Torpedoes versus heavy plasma.
Time it takes to repair components.
Effectiveness of plasma weapons & capship missiles.
The logic in kamakaze dives.

The consistency of shield tech.
Being able to exchange weapons for other gear.
What should happen to you when a capship pops.

The Devastator.
Capship torpedoing tactics.
What difficulty level we play on.
Performance cuts suffered by fighters when carrying alternative loads.
Length of this thread.
WC as an analogy of World Wars.
Effectiveness of missiles.
Should fighters be able to take capships?
Realism factor of novels compared to fun factor of games.
Why the dragon's so great.
How good maniac really is.
Effectiveness of supposed 'superfighters.'
Pilot skill versus the statistics of a combat situation.
Should confed build dragons.

 

[Earthworm]

I can't really tell who's arguing what, and I haven't played WC4 for a long time, but can you fire weapons, charge up weapons, and lock missiles when cloaked? If you can't I'm sure there's plenty of time to react if the pilot kept an eye on the radar.

You can lock missiles. You can't fire weapons because cloak uses to much energy.

I dunno, two torpedoes can pretty much take out any capship. And it'd be a lot easier to escort in a Dragon then a Longbow. But with a cloak, you wouldn't really need to either.

A bomber is designed to take out several capital ships during one mission.

 

[Quarto]

Pilot skills aren't nearly as important when you're so heavily outnumbered. Like I said, the Gothri could run circles around one of the 'stars, but the other two would fry it in a matter of seconds.

You forget, the Gothri has a neutron turret. Also, note that while both the 'Star and the Gothri have missiles, only the Gothri has chaff pods.

No, considering that the Morningstar could fire the Mace long before it was in range. I would then either have to evade, or die. If I evade, the 'star gets on my tale and fires a missile.

I'm only a moderately-skilled pilot, but I can assure you that one on one, I'd kick your Morningstar's ass in an Epee (even though I hate the damn thing). First up, the Mace doesn't bother me at all, since it takes a while to lock and it's too slow anyway (not to mention that unlike you, oh 'Worm, I have two chaff pods). Second, I have a vast manoeuvrability and speed advantage. Even if I go into evasives, what are you gonna do? You can't catch up, cause I'm on full 'burners. You can't hit me, next thing you know, I'm on your tail, match speed, two heatseekers up your tailpipe. If necessary, I finish you off with a nice little series from my particle cannons... like shooting worms in a barrel

.

 

[Earthworm]

I'm only a moderately-skilled pilot, but I can assure you that one on one, I'd kick your Morningstar's ass in an Epee (even though I hate the damn thing). First up, the Mace doesn't bother me at all, since it takes a while to lock and it's too slow anyway (not to mention that unlike you, oh 'Worm, I have two chaff pods).

The Mace doesn't require a lock.

Remember, it's that big nuk that flies straight and blows up after a certain amount of time, so a Chaff pod would be useless against it.

Second, I have a vast manoeuvrability and speed advantage. Even if I go into evasives, what are you gonna do? You can't catch up, cause I'm on full 'burners. You can't hit me, next thing you know, I'm on your tail, match speed, two heatseekers up your tailpipe. If necessary, I finish you off with a nice little series from my particle cannons... like shooting worms in a barrel

.

The 'star ain't that slow either. While you try to evade the blast waver I'll have plenty of time to go after you with my three Particles. Which have a prety good range BTW, so I won't have to be right behind you. And since the Epee's shields can't stop a well thrown rock…

 

[Wedge009]

Oh boy, here we go...

Anyway, both the Epee and the Morningstar have particles, meaning you'll both have the same range. Oh hang on, I don't wanna drag myself into this...

 

[Earthworm]

To late...

The Morningstar has more Particles, much more shields/armor, and the Epee has to change it's course which gives me an oportunity to fry his arse.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The Epee is protected by 9 cm to 9.5 cm of shields an armor at any one point. The Morningstar has 35 cm. What, specifically does this mean? To destroy a Morningstar, an Epee must score 8 direct hits with its particle cannons (4.4 cm) -- further, the Morningstar can survive being hit by *both* of the Epee's Javelins (15 cm). To destroy an Epee, a Morningstar must simply hit it *once* with its volley of particle cannons -- or it could simply use *one* of it's Image Recognition missiles (17 cm).

The Epee has a *small* advantage with its maneuverability -- it has a 2 dps lead in yaw, pitch and roll, as well as an 80 kps advantage in speed and a 160 kps advantage using afterburners. They have the same acceleration rates.

 

[Earthworm]

Actually, you're wrong about one thing. The Epee has an acceleration rate of 4, while the 'star has 3.

 

[Quarto]

The Mace doesn't require a lock. Remember, it's that big nuk that flies straight and blows up after a certain amount of time, so a Chaff pod would be useless against it.

Whoops, my mistake. Or is it yours? How exactly do you plan to hit me with a dumbfire, silly?

I'm in a light fighter; all I have to do is hit burners, and the Mace flies right past me... unless of course, I'm flying head-on, in which case I deserve to die

.

*While you try to evade the blast waver I'll have plenty of time to go after you with my three Particles.* - Yes, but I won't be trying to evade the blast.

.

LOAF: Hmm, I was under the impression that Javelins generally do more damage then Spiculums?
Also, I really wouldn't call 20% better YPR a small advantage in manoeuvrability

. It's like saying that the Raptor is only slightly less manoeuvrable than the Hornet.

Earthworm (again): Interestingly enough, there is a capship out there which also has an Epee-like acceleration of 4... it's the Dorkathi freighter

.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Eh? You must not have used a Mace in WC2... (G) When you're trying to blow up a fighter with it, you shoot it like a dumb fire, and then blow it up with your particle cannon... it takes out everything nearby.

 

[Earthworm]

Whoops, my mistake. Or is it yours? How exactly do you plan to hit me with a dumbfire, silly?

I'm not trying to hit you silly.

You'll either have to evade or get damaged and possibly destroyed when the Mace blows up. I don't exactly remember the ranger at which the Mace explodes, I think it's around 7,000 klicks, but like LOAF said, you can always blow it up if you have to.

Yes, but I won't be trying to evade the blast.

.

Than all that's left for me to do is gun down your escape pod.

Earthworm (again): Interestingly enough, there is a capship out there which also has an Epee-like acceleration of 4... it's the Dorkathi freighter

.

Yes, and what might be your point? Hey did you know that there's a capship that can pull out over 300 kps with scoops open?

 

[KillerWave]

Wha? The Dragon is behind the Banshee. Therefore it would have to turn to even get a lock while Dragons missiles lock while cloaked. He can drop out of cloak right behind the Banshee and fire few missiles. The Banshee pilot doesn't even know what hit him. Remember the scene from WC4, where the three Banshees are destroyed by two Excals in the dead zone? Well, they had the element of surprise, something the cloaked Dragon definetly would too. In that scene one of the Banshees was dead before they knew what was up. Even if the remaining Banshees had shields and working radar, they would have died quickly. And that's when the Banshees had the advantage of numbers.
[/B]

If youre going to think that way, the kilrathi would win the war. They just use the strakhas and do the same and confed wouldnt stand a chance...
The same way, the BL would beat the BW easily after all...and Tolwyn would had succeded.


------------------
Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...

 

[Earthworm]

If youre going to think that way, the kilrathi would win the war. They just use the strakhas and do the same and confed wouldnt stand a chance...

The Strakha are rather expensive though. And those Strakhas still had to uncloak to fire their weapons, during that time other Confed pilots might have destroyed the Strakhas. Finally, most of the Strakhas are much weaker than Dragons, and the heavier variant of them isn't seen to often. Besides, as far as we know the Strakhas could have caused a lot more setbacks in the war then we've seen. But from what we do see, the Strakhas destroyed the Claw a major Confed carrier, allowed the Skippers with bio weapons to get to Locanda IV forcing Confed to use the Behemoth before it was finished, and finally they destroyed the Behemoth.

Don't forget that all this time I'm talking about 2 fighters fighting eache other, not some combat situation between a Confed and Kilrathi squadrons.

The same way, the BL would beat the BW easily after all...and Tolwyn would had succeded.

Yes, they would have. Thank God Blair was there to interupt Tolwyns plan.

 

[Wedge009]

That's right, if you're name's Christopher Blair, no one can screw up the universe... until the next game. If there's ever one.

Whoops, forgot that Blair isn't available to us anymore... [Touchy topic alert!]

 

[Chernikov]

Alright; trying to summarize all I missed replying to:
Earthworm, I was attempting to caputre the thread of the conversation, not quote you directly. Also, you must remember that the Morningstars have to worry about hitting each other (although not too badly; the shields can take a good hit and keep going). However, the Gothri doenst have to worry about these things and can fire at will at anything that moves. Also, considering who was flying the Morningstars, I wouldnt rule out a collision.

About the Sabre/Morningstar "confusion"... I was still referring to the last mission in WC2SO1, not the Morningstar missions.

And Sabre v. Broadsword... the Sabre's two particles and two mass drivers (not only outpowering but also outranging the three MDs of the Broadsword) are a lot easier to bring to target than the guns mounted on the Broadsword. True, you have the turrets, but you arent moving out of the way when using those.

Epee v. Morningstar: I dont consider the Mace an issue if you can hit it as soon as it gets within gun range. At that point, unless the Morningstar immediately breaks and evades when it launches the Mace, it will be much closer to the missile than the Epee, which will take very little damage as opposed to the Morningstar. And if you can get behind someone in the Epee and stay there, it doesnt matter how thin your shields are. The initial pass is the only chance for an inferior pilot in the Morningstar.

------------------
Build a man a fire and he will be warm for a night. Light a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

 

[Wedge009]

Ever try lighting up the Mace in your face?

<KABOOM!>

"You have died."