Command Decision, kind of an opinion poll

[Earthworm]

On my second thread I corrected my mistake. Why would I have a mere 10 fighters on a carrier?[/.QUOTE]Second thread, or second post? If you have an escort/light carrier, with only 40 fighters, and you must conduct several strikes at one time. That’s when you could have only 10 fighters.

"WTF?"
If it's too much for you to understand, it isn't worth my time.

Maybe you shout start making points that actually make sense?

"that¹s why it depends on the type of carrier."
No, because all carriers we see up to wc4 are vulnerable, including the Tarawas.

Um, if you ram, for example, a Concordia class carrier, and hit it on the hull, behind which some crew quarters are lockated, it won’t do much damage to the ship.

"The Tarawa could go up to 250 kps, or something similarŠ."
Conceted, but Tarawas are no longer in sevice with Confed during wc3.

First, I don’t remember you saying that this strike is during the WC3 time, second, the Tarawas were in use in 2668, but sudenly they’re not in use in 2669?

Of course I'm comparing a game, how many times do we do that here? Even in AI vs AI battles, a longbow, or a Paktahn for that matter can torp a cruiser.

That doesn’t mean that they should be able to do that. A cruiser is a powerful warship that could shred the ‘bows with few hits.

"Second, the remark about Kilrathi carriers isn¹t connected to my point."
Then it was a pointless point.

Except it wasn’t a point….

"?????"
Again not worth my time.

If you’re not going to explain what the hell you mean by that than why did you post it in the first place?

"And I suppose you can do it in an Arrow? Yes, I¹m sure you can."
Thank you, that makes two of us.

Somehow I doubt that if you flown on Nightmare, you could take out hundreds of fighters and several capships.

"Yeah, so Quarto¹s Œbows are shot down."
Unlikely before the forpedoes are launched. The Longbow is tougher than a Paktahn.

But it’s not tough enough to withstand two or three anti-matter turret hits. And that’s what it would get before it launched its torps.

No, it isn't.

Just certain wc2 situations and wc3 and 4.

That’s BS. I’ve seen that in all my WC games.

"I¹m a real person, and OSI doesn¹t want me to stop liking the game, which would happen if I got killed all the time."

Amusing.

Well than, I’m glad you’re amused. But it is true.

 

[Earthworm]

Earthworm thinks he's invincible if he flies an Excalibur. Well everyone's entitled to an opnion, I guess.

Wrong, Earthworm *knows* that the Excal is superior to most fighters in the Kilrathi fleet

But than those fighters would be engaged by the Excals.

No, because each wing comes in from a different vector. Thus, while the Excals head over to one wing, the other wing (+ the bombers) engage your home base.[/QUOTE]How do you know where the fighters are? They’re probably not from the cruiser, (if it’s a Fralthi II like DH said in a later post) because they don’t have any fighters. So they’d have to come from another capship, one that might be far away.

But the Kilrathi don't usualy go kamikaze.
Really? I've been told otherwise.

Than you were told wrong, They did to that in the first years of the war, but later they stoped.

But flying inside a ship would certainly be harder than it i shown in the game.
It would be, if you're planning on getting out. But kamikaze pilots are not planning on anything

.

So they just try to fly inside, not worying about acidentaly slaming into the hull outside the hangar?

Anyhow, the T-bold isn't as slow as you seem to think,

380. While the KSaga manual is probably wrong yet again, it nonetheless indicates that there is only one Kilrathi ship slower than the T-Bolt, and only by 40kps.[/QUOTE]Nope, that is the speed of the T-bolt. And it can also do 1000 kps on full burners.

And the Kilrathi strike force(s) might also decide to come in on 'burners, y'know.

So can the T-bolt.

from EW,"But the Kilrathi don't usualy go kamikaze."
They did during the first part of the war, there were aces that had like thousands and thousands of kills.

Thousands of kills? That’s doubtful.

In the last part of the war, according to novels it was still glorious to die in battle and there were many rammings by Kilrathi ships.

Dying in combat is always glorious. The only Kilrathi I remember from the novels was the fighter raming Tarawas bridge, oh, and the Strakha that was going to ram the Behemoth after it was seriously damaged. Actualy, I think I saw more Confed/Landreich/UBW pilots ram than Kilrathi in the novels.

Remember they don't have to make a habit out of ramming, but it looks like when the opportunity to do so, in a case where they would gain fame and glory, they might just do it.

They would get more glory if they killed a fighter and got back alive. If they would ram every time they saw an opportunity, why didn’t they try that all the time? Why didn’t the ram the Concordia (both, the carrier and the dreadnought)? Why didn’t they ram the ‘Claw? The Kilrathi didn’t ram nearly as much as you think, at least later in the war.


[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 11, 2000).]

 

[Earthworm]

Fighters and bombers are not weak, not if someone can kill well over a hundred light and heavy Kilrathi fighters in just over 10 minutes. It just takes some knowing how to use them, although the Shrike is a bit underpowered.

Thou shall not insult the Shrike!

IMO, the Dev is underpowerd. That pig has only two guns. One of them relies on ammo, and the other one is to heavy to use on light fighters.

We do not start taking the offensive because the politicians want votes and the people don't want to pay the taxes to make it possible. We don't have a game to do it in, either.

And we really can’t make an offensive if we don’t know someone’s coming.

 

[Death's Head]

"Thousands of kills? That¹s doubtful."
Read you proph guide if you don't believe me.
Blair avgeraged 400 kills per year in a 4 year time span, how many kills do you think he got total? Blair ranks 11th in the number of kills, btw.

"and the Strakha that was going to ram the Behemoth after it was seriously damaged."
I thought it was a Darket, and if you think two rammings was all the Kilrathi did, that's one hell of an assmuption. For one thing, a novel can not include every engagement for every fighter. If every time a Kilrathi ship hit another, it would get boring, the reader would think, what are these guys, crazy? We do not see most of the engagements going on in the war, so if we see 2 or 3 rammings in a couple novels, their could easily be 2 or 3 rammings per day during the war.

"Dying in combat is always glorious."
I'm sure commanders include that in letters to mothers who lost their sons and daughters in combat.

Combat is not all glory and excitement, when a wingman dies who says that was a glorious thing he did? Fiction glorifies war and conflict, but the reality is rarely anything but tradgedy.

"If they would ram every time they saw an opportunity, why didn¹t they try that all the time?"
Now you're taking a very dramatic view from what I said. When a low-borne Kilrathi sees a Ranger-class carrier with fighters crammed on its deck, the thought of going in there and shooting up a few, and plowing through a great deal more is going through his head, I'm sure given the Kilrathi history that the pilot would be inclined to do just that. I in no way intended to mean Kilrathi fighters often forget they have weapons because they are always looking to ram opposing fighters, although they did appear to do that years ago to some extent.

"Second thread, or second post?"
Post naturally, look at the thread, first part(that would be the second part, as we see from new to old.

"Maybe you shout start making points that actually make sense?"
Shout? You mean start?? Why don't you quite your wisecracks so you can notice that you aren't making sense all the time, most importantly in your point?

"Um, if you ram, for example, a Concordia class carrier, and hit it on the hull, behind which some crew quarters are lockated, it won¹t do much damage to the ship."
What are you telling me, that a person ending his life ramming will just hit the ship anywhere? Concordias have large flight bays, a bridge, and a few engines, why would you ingore those points other than to give you some weak point to post?

"First, I don¹t remember you saying that this strike is during the WC3 time"
If you had read the thread, which you obviously didn't, or conveniently overlooked it so you could write that, then that would be understandable.

"That doesn¹t mean that they should be able to do that."
During WWII an obsolete biplane torpedoed the Battleship Bismarc, crippling it. Now the odds of this happening weren't that great, but given the Longbow can channel a hell of a lot of power into its shields, and they are strong to begin with, and that torps can be fired from 15000 out, and torpedoes can be fired in salvos, and laser turrets aren't entirely good at shooting torps down in wc3, and not sending the bows means you might as well not even have them, mean that a pair of Longbows would have a fairly decent chance of at least disabling the cruiser. Even cruisers are next to dead if you get behind them, now if you argued that in real life a bomber or two would not have a chance against such a ship, there would be little to show that given the ability for a bow to make all these preparations, it wouldn't have a better chance than what HOT portrays. Even the KS manual says that you can drop torpedoes (not you, but in the reality within the game) without a lock and Maniac and a wingman could very easily take down two such cruisers while the light fighter escorts were busy taking on other fighters. Even a conservative approach seems to indicate that a single cruiser without cover won't ward off a longbow strike exceedingly well.

"the Tarawas were in use in 2668, but sudenly they¹re not in use in 2669?"
Were not the Tarawas mothballed during the false peace, or scrapped or sold?

 

[Death's Head]

D'oh I forgot to include this in the last post.
The Shrike is indeed underpowered, and I can say that because it's my opinion.
The Devastator actually has 12 guns if you want to be precise. Sure one requires ammo, at least by design, but it is a good gun nontheless.
I'm not really sure what you mean by mounting a plasma cannon on a light fighter, light fighters are no longer designed to blast holes in large capships. The Devastator is underpowered in that its shields don't recharge rapidly, other than that, it is a decent bomber in all respects. The Shrike would be an excellant ship, (not that it isn't a fair design) if it has slightly stronger shielding and a little better yaw rate.
"IMO, the Dev is underpowerd."
Well, that's your opinion, I don't say thou shall not insult just because I like the the Devastator, as a bomber that is.

"Wrong, Earthworm *knows* that the Excal is superior to most fighters in the Kilrathi fleet"
That doesn't mean EW can wreck an entire fleet.

I'm sure you can actually do so in the game, as could most members here. But take an Excalibur against a fleet with realistic AI and almost everyone would fail in taking on a whole fleet at once.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Almost, DH?

So who could take on an entire Kilrathi fleet single handedly?

 

[Death's Head]

I have no idea, but we have to keep spirits high, right?

I'm sure with practice, someone would beat a small fleet eventually.

[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 11, 2000).]

 

[Quarto]

Sometimes, Earthworm, I just cannot understand you. Now, seriously, if the Confederation decided to create an expensive fighter catapult & retrieval system to ensure that their hangars were at last adequately protected, doesn't that indicate that they had good reason to do so? Tax payers need to know why they're paying for something. Thus, unless there indeed were lots and lots of kamikaze actions resulting in significant damage of Confed vessels, nobody would ever get away with the building of such a catapult system as the Midway class has.
Your problem, Earthworm, is that you insist on taking everything literally, and cling to canon all too desperately. "Now, this here is the brain case. Make good use of it."

In other words, don't act as though you are immune to logic, Earthworm. Pleeaase?

As for the Excalibur, it's hardly the super fighter you make it out to be. HOT seems to indicate that it also has some trouble when outnumbered. Certainly, it is more than capable of wanton death and destruction, but it doesn't destroy fleets in a flash.

And don't forget the rules of psychological warfare that the Kilrathi always used against the Confederation. The Excal may indeed be tougher, but even a mere Darket looks more dangerous than it does. This psychological warfare most definitely seems to work, as our KSaga manual tells us.

Oh, and as for the Longbows... frankly, I'm not expecting them to come back. I am hoping that they'll fire off their torps, but I can only hope. You see, it's one of those calculated risks. In this case, it seems prudent to at least make sure the cruiser is well occupied while I'm busy with the incoming waves of fighters, bombers, and of course our friendly neighbourhood transports. At the same time, however, the Longbows have the best chances of taking down the cruiser. Not even the Excalibur has better chances, because its armour sucks.

Oh, and one more thing, Earthworm. Your posts are really getting boring. You don't seem to even try to understand what the other person is trying to get across, you simply tear their thread apart and reply to it sentence by sentence. Of course it won't make sense then. In the future, please read the whole post, then try to understand it (and that means going beyond what is actually written), and then reply. This will make things so much easier for all of us.

 

[Earthworm]

Read you proph guide if you don't believe me.
Blair avgeraged 400 kills per year in a 4 year time span, how many kills do you think he got total? Blair ranks 11th in the number of kills, btw.

Just because he got 400 kills in 4 years, doesn’t mean it’ll happen every 4 years. And Blair is one of the few pilots that could go near a thousand, but there’s not many like him.

"and the Strakha that was going to ram the Behemoth after it was seriously damaged."
I thought it was a Darket,

Nope, the Strakha leader tried to ram the Behemoth.

and if you think two rammings was all the Kilrathi did, that's one hell of an assmuption. For one thing, a novel can not include every engagement for every fighter.

Um, I’m not saying that Kilrathi only ramed two times during the entire span of the novels.

Nevertheless, I did read about more terrans raming cats, than the other way around.

I'm sure commanders include that in letters to mothers who lost their sons and daughters in combat.

Yeah, it’s something like: Your son/daughter, died gloriously in the line of duty…..

Combat is not all glory and excitement,

Anyone who would think that is a complete moron…..

when a wingman dies who says that was a glorious thing he did? Fiction glorifies war and conflict, but the reality is rarely anything but tradgedy.

Hm, I think it would be glorious for me to die defending my country, or the whole Confed….. at least when compared to dying an old man in an old people home.

"Second thread, or second post?"
Post naturally, look at the thread, first part(that would be the second part, as we see from new to old.

My bad, didn’t reade the first 15 or so posts.

"Maybe you shout start making points that actually make sense?"
You mean start??

No, I mean should

Why don't you quite your wisecracks so you can notice that you aren't making sense all the time, most importantly in your point?

And what exactly is my point?

What are you telling me, that a person ending his life ramming will just hit the ship anywhere? Concordias have large flight bays, a bridge, and a few engines, why would you ingore those points other than to give you some weak point to post?

First, carriers have several bridges, second while flying between turret fire, and ships dogfighting with each other, and the carrier moving at it’s top speed and manuvering with all it’s got, when flying thousands of meters per second, you wouldn’t always crash into the part of ship your aiming for.

"First, I don¹t remember you saying that this strike is during the WC3 time"
If you had read the thread, which you obviously didn't, or conveniently overlooked it so you could write that, then that would be understandable.

Did you actualy say that it takes place in the WC3 time?

 

[Quarto]

Did you actualy say that it takes place in the WC3 time?

Don't be silly. He didn't have to say anything. At what other time did Confed fight against the Kilrathi using Excaliburs? Surely, you know all too well that they were only introduced towards the end of the Kilrathi War, at the time of WC3.

 

[Death's Head]

"Anyone who would think that is a complete moron…..,"
Have you, Earthworm ever seen combat? Have you talked to old war vets? I haven't seen combat since there hasn't been a war that needed me, but I have interviewed and talked to many vets. I haven't heard one decribe any aspect of their experiences as glorious. So by your definition, they are morons?

"when compared to dying an old man in an old people home."
And I thought most people out on the front lines wanted nothing more than to do their part so they can get home. From what I've read, it's religious or political extremists that are out to make martyrs of themselves.D

 

[Death's Head]

The Excal may indeed be tougher, but even a mere Darket looks more dangerous than it does.

Indeed an Excalibur flying remotely close to an exloding Darket was the cause of Vaquero's ship getting blown in HOT. Since there would likely be a large number of explosions due to your kills (if you got any), your chances of being downed get higher the more explosions occur near your fighter. Then there's dodging missiles, enemy gunfire, capitol ship guns and explosions.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Thousands of kills is quite right -- please re-read your Prophecy Guide, Earthworm. Blair, with over 2000 kills, is the 11th highest ranking ace. The reason for this is given in the Prophecy Guide -- during the early part of the war when shield technology was less effective and the Kilrathi were more likely to launch kamikaze strikes, Confed pilots scored kills much more easily.

(To wit, we know that Blair had more than 2000 kills, because Maniac (who holds a lower place in number of kills) has 2,000 as of Prophecy).

 

[Earthworm]

Did you actualy say that it takes place in the WC3 time?

Don't be silly. He didn't have to say anything. At what other time did Confed fight against the Kilrathi using Excaliburs? Surely, you know all too well that they were only introduced towards the end of the Kilrathi War, at the time of WC3.

I know that at the end of WC3, Confed had a squadron of 10 Excals, which was the only operational squadron at the time. That squadron was first on the Eagle, and than on the Victory, and about half of it was destroyed. I also know that after the war suposedly ended, there were still little battles with the cats.

Have you, Earthworm ever seen combat? Have you talked to old war vets? I haven't seen combat since there hasn't been a war that needed me, but I have interviewed and talked to many vets. I haven't heard one decribe any aspect of their experiences as glorious. So by your definition, they are morons?

What? I said that anyone who would think combat is all glory and excitement is a moron.




[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 13, 2000).]

 

[Rikaelus]

Ok, here we go:

1. T-Bolts -> transports: Just to be on the safe side

.

2. Longbows -> cruiser: They could hold on their own without escort.

3. Arrows, Hellcats -> fighters: The Arrows should be able to complete their objective in time to save the Hellcats' butt

.

4. Excals -> bombers: They will finish the bombers off easily and could perhaps help intercept fighters that escaped the Arrows/Hellcats.

To answer the initial question, I'd have to agree with this.

This is why we need a modernized version of WC: Armada!

 

[Death's Head]

Fleet Commander was supposed to be something like armada...

I liked Armada, but the sector battles seemed like the fighters took the place of most capitol ships of the line. Light fighters took the place of scouts and corvettes, medium fighters replaced destroyers, heavies replaced cruisers. I think ships in that era are normally restricted to making one or two jumps away from the carrier, but considering the game was released many years ago, there was only so much you could put into a game affordable for most.
I have two different copies of the game, myself. That's because of network/modem play, of course.

 

[Rikaelus]

Fleet Commander was supposed to be something like armada...

I liked Armada, but the sector battles seemed like the fighters took the place of most capitol ships of the line. Light fighters took the place of scouts and corvettes, medium fighters replaced destroyers, heavies replaced cruisers. I think ships in that era are normally restricted to making one or two jumps away from the carrier, but considering the game was released many years ago, there was only so much you could put into a game affordable for most.
I have two different copies of the game, myself. That's because of network/modem play, of course.

I have some kick arse ideas for a new Armada... but nobody to take them to.

 

[Death's Head]

I now how you feel, I have many for Armada and Rebellion. Why don't you send me some via email, it would give me something else good to read?

 

[DeltaKiller]

-"First off, I want to reinerate your mission, it's a strike, not defend a mobile asset. Confed really doesn't care if you survive, you're an expendable ship on an important mission."

Ok, since I'm the Wing Commander and I would know this, then I would change my plan and send the whole shabang minus the 2 thunderbolts to kill the transports. Since we're going to die, and it is clear to me we are intended to, go with a bang!

-"As for radio contact with Confed, that would reveal your location to all the other Kilrathi ships in the sector. You sure that's a good idea?"

Back to my old plan, Kilrathi fighters and bombers are already on an intercept vector. The jig is up, so no sense in trying to be quiet. The best thing I think in that strategy is to make as much noise as you can. Try to make them sweat, if they think your bigger than they are, they may just wait for reinforcements or slow down so they can bring in the big guns which would buy you some time. However, I am aware of the fact that this could very well backfire; the fact that they WILL be bringing the big guns is still a VERY bad thing.

-"As Wing Commander, you have no authority over the Captain of the destroyer. You therefore cannot direct the base-ship to do anything."

I am aware of this fact. But, the Wing Commander is included in the making of battle stratigies, so he would be able to suggest such a stratagy. The ship Captain has final on all plans, but if he agrees with the WC, then woulkdn't he go with it?"

-"Your best option is to hit the transports hard and fast, allowing you to get back to friendly space with the mission completed."

Do I not say that? The Arrows are only breif and quick scouts, nothing more. I am bringing the whole group straignt to the transports, blasting them and getting the hell out of dodge. I forgot about being in Kilrathi space, so it seems then logical to leave the region. However I do say to stay away from the crusier and not engage it.

My thoughts,

DeltaKiller

 

[Quarto]

Ok, since I'm the Wing Commander and I would know this, then I would change my plan and send the whole shabang minus the 2 thunderbolts to kill the transports. Since we're going to die, and it is clear to me we are intended to, go with a bang!

Wait... you consider yourself expendable?