Command Decision, kind of an opinion poll

[Cricket]

Okay, about my plan, I knew having Arrows escort a slower ship would mean they'd get there later, but I thought an Arrow protecting a Thuderbolt would be more effective then just two Thunderbolts.
Arrows are fast enough to ignore whatever's chasing them, so they could help about the slower fighters, maybe draw a few fighters somwhere where the Thunderbolt or Longbow could hit them.

And about having the Longbow stick with escort, my plan was for them to just fire all 16 of their missiles and then draw back next to the carrier. I'm sure it would kill maybe 3 bombers.

 

[Quarto]

I see your point, Cricket, but at the same time the Arrow would be too light to draw off all the escorts. A Thunderbolt is slow, so it needs lots of peace and quiet during a torpedo run. Still, it would work, if your Arrow pilot is damned good.
The Longbow escort idea could also work, but this would depend on how many missiles hit. If too few, then the Excalibur is in trouble. Nonetheless, a good plan

. Hopefully, DH isn't sending more than five or six bombers

.

Earthworm says:
How's that any different from sending two Longbows without escorsts against a cat cruiser Seriously, the 'sports in this situation may not have any escorts. Otherwise, DH would say something about them.

He didn't have to mention escorts, for them to be there

- he didn't say that there was no escort. In other words, he doesn't know. Does lack of knowledge allow you to make either conclusion? In other words, you can't afford the risk.
As for me sending two Longbows out to get the cruiser, it is a heavy risk, I admit. The truth is, we're not likely to see those Longbows make it back. C'est la guerre. But if anybody can survive long enough to fire their torps and eject, it's the Longbows. Well, the Excals would too, but the convoy is clearly far more important. 'Sides, we'll need the Excals later, to help search for the ejectees

.

Hm, seing how I only have 10 fighters in my arsenal, I assume the cats don't have much more. So yeah, I think the Excals could deal with them fast enough.

How can you assume that? You have no intelligence regarding those fighters. Don't assume anything, prepare for everything.

There's a risk in every plan. No, I don't want to risk having only three fighter to engage bombers and fighters, that's why I sent the Excals to take out the incoming fighters, because of their superiority. They certainly could take care of the fighters fast enough, but to make an acurate plan I'd need to know the distances from the transports, the cruiser, estimates on the number of Kilrathi fighters, and if there are any planets/asteroids, or any other anomolies in the area.

Tryue enough

. Death's Head is giving us precious little info here.

You too seem to rely on the Excals geting back to the carrier to asist the forces there.

I can afford to. I've got all approaches covered. Ergo, the Excaliburs are just a back-up plan. Note that I stated that the Excaliburs will go to wherever they're needed, not necessarily the carrier. I'm not worried about the carrier, because the bombers will have a lot of trouble against the Thunderbolts, as crap as they may be

.

The 'Cats and the Arrow would most likely dispose of the bombers before the fighters could get there.

On the contrary, the fighters most likely will get there before the bombers do. That's usually the case

. Besides, while we're not given any numbers regarding distances, we can assume that the three wings are all a part of a coordinated assault. That means that they're all planning on getting there at the same time.

. And fighters themselves couldn't do anything to a carrier, even if they did take out the defenders before the rest of the group gets back. Plus, like I said the carrier was moving behind the cruiser, so at least the T-bolts could get back in time.

A single kamikaze fighter is all it takes to heavily damage a carrier. Two or three fighters, and you've got hell. Remember what the best way to take down a carrier is? From the inside. I did that with Arrows, no problem. As for the T-Bolt, it is slow. By the time the cruiser is gone, the battle around the carrier will be in full swing.

 

[Primarch]

Need sleep...but must answer this first...

Okay, personally I think this is a win/lose or just plain suicide mission (but that's just my opinion

).

Since you can only send two fighters after the transports and they are the priority targets, I'd send the Excals. They are the only ones capable of getting to the target and ensuring it is destroyed while still being able to defend themselves from whatever escort the transports have.

The Longbows are the only choice for attacking the cruiser (though very risky without escort...)

Thunderbolts remain on point defence. They are two slow to act as interceptors, but heavy enough to engage the bombers with a resonable chance of success.

Arrows & Hellcats are all that is left to intercept the remaining two wings of incoming fighters.

Chances are that the Longbows would be lost and the carrier hurt, but at least the transports would be space dust...

------------------
Been there, done that...

Wing Commander - Secret Ops Missions
The Fanfiction Archives

 

[Quarto]

Hey, someone came up with the same plan as me

.

 

[Death's Head]

Tis a good plan, Q, Primarch.
Cricket, your plan is case sensitive in that it relies on good pilots, which are not too common on destroyers.

 

[Earthworm]

"There's no way two unescorted bombers would get throught the turret fire"
Has anyone ever tried to fly a longbow with shields at 300% recharge against the rear vector of a cruiser?

Two torps seem to be enough to take down most any cruiser up to wc4.

And have you noticed that WC3 is quite easy, especialy when compared to what it should be if it was real? Sure, in the game there are unescorted transports, and you can take out a capship by yourself, but if his 'Bows could take out that cruiser like they can in the game, than my Arrow and 'Bow would be able to engage and destroy the three or so fighters escorting the transport.

And you would soon see yourself floating home.

Oh? So the Kilrathi have some super carriers that hold.... <<gasp>> 30 fighters, while mine only holds 10?

I seem to recall being able to knock out the turrets off a carrier flying a hellcat only to take the rest of the ship out at my leisure.

Again, why do you compare what you can do in the game to a technicly real situation? If you can knock out all turrets by yourself, I can take out a whole Kilrathi fleet by myself in an Excal.

 

[Earthworm]

Hm, seing how I only have 10 fighters in my arsenal, I assume the cats don't have much more. So yeah, I think the Excals could deal with them fast enough.

How can you assume that? You have no intelligence regarding those fighters. Don't assume anything, prepare for everything.

Of course I can assume that. If my carrier can carry only ten fighters, and I have specs on Kilrathi ships, I could know an aproximate number on how many ships the enemy has. So, if the Cats have also only 15-20 fighters, and they need to have some on CAP, some on long range patrols and so on. The two fighter wings would probably have 2-4 fighters in them.

The 'Cats and the Arrow would most likely dispose of the bombers before the fighters could get there.
On the contrary, the fighters most likely will get there before the bombers do. That's usually the case

.

But than those fighters would be engaged by the Excals.

Besides, while we're not given any numbers regarding distances, we can assume that the three wings are all a part of a coordinated assault. That means that they're all planning on getting there at the same time.

But if the bombers and fighters get there at the same time, the Excals should also be there. So we have two 'cats, an Arrow, two Excals, and posible a T-bolt, to engage the fighter/bomber wings. Also, I think it's safe to assume that my carrier has some escorts that would help with the fighters.

A single kamikaze fighter is all it takes to heavily damage a carrier.

It depends where the fighter hits, and what carrier it is...

Two or three fighters, and you've got hell.

But the Kilrathi don't usualy go kamikaze.

Remember what the best way to take down a carrier is? From the inside. I did that with Arrows, no problem.

I've done that with Arrows, 'Bows, T-bolts, and Excals.

But flying inside a ship would certainly be harder than it i shown in the game.

As for the T-Bolt, it is slow. By the time the cruiser is gone, the battle around the carrier will be in full swing.

Like I said, the carrier is moving behind the cruiser, and we don't even know what classes those ships are, so I can't know if my carrier would keep up. Anyhow, the T-bold isn't as slow as you seem to think, and if that T-bolt peals of as soon as it takes out enough turrets and gets back on full burners, it could get back quickly.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited May 07, 2000).]

 

[Death's Head]

How many times do I have to say you don't have a full light carrier, you're on board a destroyer which has 10 fighters. Saying a Kilrathi carrier has 30 because a destoyer has 10 is pretty weak.

"Also, I think it's safe to assume that my carrier has some escorts that would help with the fighters."
Another poor assumption, since I said there was NONE. And it's still not a carrier.

"It depends where the fighter hits, and what carrier it is..."
Baah. Th idea behind a Kamikaze is to insure the fighter hits it's target. If you've got rows of fighters and you smash into them at hundreds of meters per second, the result is almost always dramatic. Kilrathi kamikaze attacks were responsable for damaging carriers more than once. It was a light fighter that finished off the Behemoth in HOT, a light fighter that cripled the base which was used to shoot down asteroids in POF, and ICIS said "During the war, one gutsy Dralthi pilot with dreams of glory could simultaneously find glorious martyrdom and eliminate a carrier's whole fighter complement with one suicide run through the hangar doors" This implies two things; it didn't take much for a fighter to devastate a carrier and since the Kilrathi did it, Confed probably did something similar to the Kilrathi. The 'slide seems to confirm this, at least from what the KS manual says.

"It depends where the fighter hits, and what carrier it is..."
Nevertheless, it could and has been done.

"we don't even know what classes those ships are, so I can't know if my carrier would keep up"
I figuired with all your assumptions, you would have figuired the cruiser was Fralthi II. What carrier in any era can keep up with a cruiser of the same era???

"but if his 'Bows could take out that cruiser like they can in the game"
You're comparing apples and oranges here
"than my Arrow and 'Bow would be able to engage and destroy the three or so fighters escorting the transport."
Fighters aren't your main objective here. And why is there only 3 or so fighters? And if you really wanna go for realism, a light fighter and a bomber don't stand much of a chance against a far greater number enemy.

"Oh? So the Kilrathi have some super carriers that hold.... <<gasp>> 30 fighters, while mine only holds 10?"
Good heavens! why do you insist on being commander of a carrier wing, it's a destroyer? And who brought a Kilrathi carrier in?

"Again, why do you compare what you can do in the game to a technicly real situation?"
Because I can and that pilots do take out turrets off at least on side(KS manual)
Have you ever heard pilots say how easy their commanders said a mission would be only to find out how tough it really is? Well you've been told it's easy.

"If you can knock out all turrets by yourself, I can take out a whole Kilrathi fleet by myself in an Excal."
If you need an Excal to do that, then-then, not "than", you should log in some sim hours.

Even if you could, you can't be in every ship, common and even ace pilots get shot down quite frequently by capships. If I'm not mistaken, you're ship is stronger than your wingman's ship in wc3 and wc4, because you're special.

 

[Quarto]

Earthworm: Assuming ANYTHING in a combat situation will get you killed faster than a tachyon.

But than those fighters would be engaged by the Excals.

No, because each wing comes in from a different vector. Thus, while the Excals head over to one wing, the other wing (+ the bombers) engage your home base.

But the Kilrathi don't usualy go kamikaze.

Really? I've been told otherwise.

But flying inside a ship would certainly be harder than it i shown in the game.

It would be, if you're planning on getting out. But kamikaze pilots are not planning on anything

.

Anyhow, the T-bold isn't as slow as you seem to think,

380. While the KSaga manual is probably wrong yet again, it nonetheless indicates that there is only one Kilrathi ship slower than the T-Bolt, and only by 40kps. And the Kilrathi strike force(s) might also decide to come in on 'burners, y'know.

 

[Death's Head]

Earthworm thinks he's invincible if he flies an Excalibur. Well everyone's entitled to an opnion, I guess.

 

[Cricket]

I guess you're right... my plan is kinda depndant on good pilots.

 

[Death's Head]

Still, it's good you voiced an opinion for a plan.

 

[Death's Head]

from EW,"But the Kilrathi don't usualy go kamikaze."
They did during the first part of the war, there were aces that had like thousands and thousands of kills. In the last part of the war, according to novels it was still glorious to die in battle and there were many rammings by Kilrathi ships.

Remember they don't have to make a habit out of ramming, but it looks like when the opportunity to do so, in a case where they would gain fame and glory, they might just do it.

[This message has been edited by Death's Head (edited May 09, 2000).]

 

[ENERGIZRE]

I think that kamikaze during the terran WWII was made as to inflict as much damage against the US forces back then..
but if you say that .. Kamikaze ways were used to get the Kilrathi Fame & glory..
why didn't Hobbes try to do for the Ace he flew with in Part 2 ..
i tried to do it & bail out sometimes in the prophecy but everytime the worms get me..
so since we destroyed the worm gate..
i suppose there's another..
blair's dead now.. so where do we stand exactly..
& why do we mostly rely on the saying of a few Good men ?..
& i noticed that in prophecy our fighters & bombers are so weak against kilrathi fighters..
so when r we gonna start taking the offensive ?.. why do we always wait till our lands & palnets .. do we always wait to be beaten to start fighting.. why don't we put everyone in his place & teach them to live in peace ?

 

[Death's Head]

Whoa.
Hobbes didn't do that because Aces and Lords rarely need to resort to that kind of behavior, and he knew he wasn't supposed to fly anyway because at the time he was too valuable to lose. Besides, if he survived, he'd get an ass...he'd be in trouble.

The "worms" get you because the game designers wanted to tell you not to eject.

There is another gatelike device in Proxima later on.

Blair's dead until we hear otherwise.

We stand waiting to see what happens with EA, as is, there may not be another game.

We rely on a few because everyone wants to be a hero and you're it this month.

Fighters and bombers are not weak, not if someone can kill well over a hundred light and heavy Kilrathi fighters in just over 10 minutes. It just takes some knowing how to use them, although the Shrike is a bit underpowered.

We do not start taking the offensive because the politicians want votes and the people don't want to pay the taxes to make it possible. We don't have a game to do it in, either.

 

[DeltaKiller]

Ok, here's what I would do. First, let's take a look at the facts:

1) Primary target & Mission Objective:
-Kilrathi 'Sports carrying Troops

2) Hazzards:
-Unconfirmed escort for Transports
-Kilrathi Cruser launching fighters and bombers

3)Resources:
2 Arrows
2 Hellcats
2 Thuderbolts
2 Longbows
2 Excaliburs
1 Base-ship, Destroyer (Is that possible?)

This is definately a defensive mission. First thing to understand is that you need to make fast decisions. So, as Wing Commander, I would do the following:

1) Hold fighter forces close to the ship to begin with. Since we know they're coming, it means that we've been spotted and the transports almost surely know that we're in the area, but they might not know exactly where we are, so let them sweat a little, it could be useful.

2) Assuming that I know where the transports are, I'd direct the base-ship to overtake them. I'd also send out the arrows to the transports, as scouts for anything that could be there. If they spot the enemy, DON'T ENGAGE! Return to base and eport on their location and vector to the planet.

3) As for the fighters that are on an incoming vector, have the Excaliburs do sweeps behind the ship as it is overtaking the transports. Seeing Excals should intimidate them a little, and even if it doesn't, they can hold their own for a few until we send some releif from other fighters, which are still flying escort next to the Destroyer.

4) After we approach the transports, a Confed force this size is more than enough to take out 2 standard Kilrathi transports, even in the event they planned fo this and had 1 or 2 fighters docked in the transport cargo bays. (Which is a nasty trick that I love doing.)

5) Finally, forget the crusier, that wasn't part of the mission. Since the planet is friendly, perhaps we can get some support from them. However, since I also dought that that will happen, I'd say pack it up and run, stay in the system, but away from the cruiser till reinforcements from Confed arive.

These are my thoughts,

DeltaKiller

P.S. You are an IDIOT if you haven't been, or tried like a madman to be, in radio contact with Confed at any time during this engagement.

 

[Death's Head]

Tis an interesting solution to the problem, it is. First off, I want to reinerate your mission, it's a strike, not defend a mobile asset. Confed really doesn't care if you survive, you're an expendable ship on an important mission. You didn't see the Victory help win the war by staing defensive, they took the battle to the enemy. Two Arrows may not be enough to stop a squadron of bombers before they get off a couple torpedoes. How long are you planning on keeping your fighters around the mothership? Concentrating your numbers in one area will just give them less targets. Your best option is to hit the transports hard and fast, allowing you to get back to friendly space with the mission completed. You are in Kilrathi space, forces based on your friendly planet are not going to be able to help you.

Forgetting the cruiser is only temporary as it wont stand still and watch you blow away an integral part of its own task force.

Having the mothership go deeper into Kilrathi space(after the sports) will make it harder for you to retreat. It is wise to use the destroyer against something, but not in this manner, at least not if you want to get back to base with a promotion or two and more objectives from command.

Sending the Excaliburs is the best(not the only right) option because they have the option of retreating at any time, unlike the destroyer, or the nonjump capable fighters. Part of the reason sending your capship and the rest of the fighters out was to draw attention away from the sports in the first place, otherwise the Excaliburs would have been able to take the sports out themselves.

 

[Quarto]

Actually, I just realised what Delta Killer (and Earthworm; possibly several others as well, though I can't remember) has forgotten. As Wing Commander, you have no authority over the Captain of the destroyer. You therefore cannot direct the base-ship to do anything. The base-ship has a set course, a set mission, and is not about to change all that just because of a somewhat-flaky Wing Commander.
As for radio contact with Confed, that would reveal your location to all the other Kilrathi ships in the sector. You sure that's a good idea?

 

[Earthworm]

How many times do I have to say you don't have a full light carrier, you're on board a destroyer which has 10 fighters. Saying a Kilrathi carrier has 30 because a destoyer has 10 is pretty weak.

Um, in the first post in this thread you said we comand a squadron based on a carrier

"Also, I think it's safe to assume that my carrier has some escorts that would help with the fighters."
Another poor assumption, since I said there was NONE. And it's still not a carrier.

Certainly not in the post that started this thread…..

"It depends where the fighter hits, and what carrier it is..."
Baah. Th idea behind a Kamikaze is to insure the fighter hits it's target. If you've got rows of fighters and you smash into them at hundreds of meters per second, the result is almost always dramatic. Kilrathi kamikaze attacks were responsable for damaging carriers more than once. It was a light fighter that finished off the Behemoth in HOT,

No, the fighter broke apart and it’s debries impacted the Behemoth, but it wasn’t that fighter that destroyed it, or even seriously damaged it. Not to mention that the Behemoth wasn’t finished in the first place.

a light fighter that cripled the base which was used to shoot down asteroids in POF,

WTF?

and ICIS said "During the war, one gutsy Dralthi pilot with dreams of glory could simultaneously find glorious martyrdom and eliminate a carrier's whole fighter complement with one suicide run through the hangar doors" This implies two things; it didn't take much for a fighter to devastate a carrier and since the Kilrathi did it, Confed probably did something similar to the Kilrathi. The 'slide seems to confirm this, at least from what the KS manual says.

Yes, and that Dralthi had to fly through the hangar…. Which is a specific target, and one that isn’t exactly the easiest.

"It depends where the fighter hits, and what carrier it is..."
Nevertheless, it could and has been done.

Uh….. yes, it has been done, that’s why it depends on the type of carrier.

I figuired with all your assumptions, you would have figuired the cruiser was Fralthi II. What carrier in any era can keep up with a cruiser of the same era???

The Tarawa could go up to 250 kps, or something similar….

"but if his 'Bows could take out that cruiser like they can in the game"
You're comparing apples and oranges here

And you’re comparing a game to real life…

"than my Arrow and 'Bow would be able to engage and destroy the three or so fighters escorting the transport."
Fighters aren't your main objective here. And why is there only 3 or so fighters? And if you really wanna go for realism, a light fighter and a bomber don't stand much of a chance against a far greater number enemy.

A fighter with 8 missiles, and a bomber with 16…. They could very well engage the fighters from long range with IR’s or FF’s. Second, if it’s not 3, than how many fighters would escort the transport?

"Oh? So the Kilrathi have some super carriers that hold.... <<gasp>> 30 fighters, while mine only holds 10?"
Good heavens! why do you insist on being commander of a carrier wing, it's a destroyer? And who brought a Kilrathi carrier in?

Good heavens! In your first post you said that I comand ships on a carrier. Second, the remark about Kilrathi carriers isn’t connected to my point.

Because I can and that pilots do take out turrets off at least on side(KS manual)

?????

Have you ever heard pilots say how easy their commanders said a mission would be only to find out how tough it really is? Well you've been told it's easy.

A pointless point…

If you need an Excal to do that, then-then, not "than", you should log in some sim hours.

And I suppose you can do it in an Arrow?

Yes, I’m sure you can.

Even if you could, you can't be in every ship,

???

common and even ace pilots get shot down quite frequently by capships.

Yeah, so Quarto’s ‘bows are shot down.

If I'm not mistaken, you're ship is stronger than your wingman's ship in wc3 and wc4, because you're special.

Every WC game is like that….. Yes, it is because I’m special…. I’m a real person, and OSI doesn’t want me to stop liking the game, which would happen if I got killed all the time.

 

[Death's Head]

On my second thread I corrected my mistake. Why would I have a mere 10 fighters on a carrier?

"WTF?"
If it's too much for you to understand, it isn't worth my time.

"that¹s why it depends on the type of carrier."
No, because all carriers we see up to wc4 are vulnerable, including the Tarawas.

"The Tarawa could go up to 250 kps, or something similarŠ."
Conceted, but Tarawas are no longer in sevice with Confed during wc3.

"And you¹re comparing a game to real lifeŠ"
Of course I'm comparing a game, how many times do we do that here? Even in AI vs AI battles, a longbow, or a Paktahn for that matter can torp a cruiser.

"Second, the remark about Kilrathi carriers isn¹t connected to my point."
Then it was a pointless point.

"?????"
Again not worth my time.

"And I suppose you can do it in an Arrow? Yes, I¹m sure you can."
Thank you, that makes two of us.

"Yeah, so Quarto¹s Œbows are shot down."
Unlikely before the forpedoes are launched. The Longbow is tougher than a Paktahn.

"Every WC game is like that"
No, it isn't.

Just certain wc2 situations and wc3 and 4.

"Yes, it is because I¹m special"
You are at that.

"I¹m a real person, and OSI doesn¹t want me to stop liking the game, which would happen if I got killed all the time."
Amusing.