frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
I don't think so... I always thought that the BWs were part of Confed until after the war when they declared independence. Thus the BWs would have no seperate military.
BWS status
- Thread starter frostytheplebe
- Start date
I don't think so... I always thought that the BWs were part of Confed until after the war when they declared independence. Thus the BWs would have no seperate military.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
I always thought that he was referring to the attack on the Lexington when he was talking about what would cause the senate to declare war, not the existence of the Intrepid.
I thought that the local defense forces were outside of Confed's command and that was why Tolwyn couldn't order them to join the 3rd fleet during Fleet Action, and why they would hire Hawk after he resigned to avoid court-martial.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Bandit LOAF said:
It has long been the standing practice of the US Navy to use old carriers as training vessels.
Another thought that might make you sleep better RogueBanshee....the Wolverine (US training ship) at one point mounted paddle wheels, yes paddle wheels for propulsion. The Intrepid fits perfectly into what one would expect for a training ship. All a training ship needs to be effective is a operational flight deck everything else is really secondary.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Umm do you remember that scene from FA? Tolwyn specifically says that he doesn't care if forces were listed in his order of battle or not, he was taking them over anyways.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
He starts listing the forces under his command then says that the forces commanded by everyone at the briefing are on the list and if they're not he's taking them anyways. He also says that the local defense forces don't have to join the fleet at Sirus but that he would like them to, which implies that they are outside of his command, and at that point his command was everything Confed could scramble, which implies that local defense forces are not directly controlled by Confed.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
So you would give command of a submarine to a fireman, instead of to a submarine captain that defected?
You thought "an active service Border Worlds ship means war!" was a reference to... an attack... on a Confed ship...?
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
He's very clearly not, since he specifically asks for confirmation that there's an active Border Worlds ship.
I'm not sure how you could possibly thought that, since what Tolwyn specifically says is that he's giving local guard units the "discretion to stay" -- it's his choice to allow them to make their own decision.
The Union *hired* Hawk-the-mercenary to fight for them immediately before the start of Wing Commander IV... and he got his training and Space Forces comission from the Terran Confederation... so, not a great example.
(For an example of the interaction between local militia units and the regular Navy, see Flash's transfer in the Wing Commander III novel...)
Starcrunch
Spaceman
RogueBanshee,
You are too concerned with why the Intrepid is part of Confed. The fact that nobody knows why it happened, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. If I walked outside and somebody has a gun and is shooting folks, I'd probably be at a loss to tell you why he's doing it, but it wouldn't change the scene infront of me at all. Same thing goes for the Intrepid. No matter how illogical or ludicrous it may seem to you that the Border Worlds whould give the ship to Confed, the fact that Confed HAS possession of the ship at the end of WCIV indicates that they did so.
Now my guess is that the Union and Confed signed a treaty, and that in a broad stroke looks like the following: It limits that Union's navy, in exchange for recognition as a state by Confed. Confed pledges a non-agression pact with the Union, and agrees to some limited defensive duties (I'm very curious about how the Union feels about Confeds withdrawl during the Nephilium conflict). Everybody gets something out of the deal, but the Union is still the small time player, and Confed holds the upper hand materially if not morally at the end of WCIV. The Union wants it's freedom, and Confed is willing to grant it, but not unconditionally, if they push too hard Confed walks away and they really do end up fighting a terrible war that they almost certainly couldn't win in any conventional way. Yes they might be able to fight Confed long enough and tenacious enough to eventually get Confed to withdraw, but they'ed always be under pressure from the Confederation. Really agreeign to giving up the ship could be just as simple as taking a course where everybody wins (peace for Confed, Freedom for the Union) rather than one where everyone loses (war). I just can't see the Union throwing away millions of lives over keeping the crappy old Intrepid and getting to build it's own fleet, especially considering that Confed, despite its faults, has never looked like the sort of organization that would fail to honor it's treaties. Maybe I misjudge them but on a whole I trust the Confederation government's word in foreign affairs. All of this is of course conjecture and irrelavent to the fact that the BWS Intrepid is returned to Confed after WCIV as per the winning path ending.
-Starcrunch
You are too concerned with why the Intrepid is part of Confed. The fact that nobody knows why it happened, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. If I walked outside and somebody has a gun and is shooting folks, I'd probably be at a loss to tell you why he's doing it, but it wouldn't change the scene infront of me at all. Same thing goes for the Intrepid. No matter how illogical or ludicrous it may seem to you that the Border Worlds whould give the ship to Confed, the fact that Confed HAS possession of the ship at the end of WCIV indicates that they did so.
Now my guess is that the Union and Confed signed a treaty, and that in a broad stroke looks like the following: It limits that Union's navy, in exchange for recognition as a state by Confed. Confed pledges a non-agression pact with the Union, and agrees to some limited defensive duties (I'm very curious about how the Union feels about Confeds withdrawl during the Nephilium conflict). Everybody gets something out of the deal, but the Union is still the small time player, and Confed holds the upper hand materially if not morally at the end of WCIV. The Union wants it's freedom, and Confed is willing to grant it, but not unconditionally, if they push too hard Confed walks away and they really do end up fighting a terrible war that they almost certainly couldn't win in any conventional way. Yes they might be able to fight Confed long enough and tenacious enough to eventually get Confed to withdraw, but they'ed always be under pressure from the Confederation. Really agreeign to giving up the ship could be just as simple as taking a course where everybody wins (peace for Confed, Freedom for the Union) rather than one where everyone loses (war). I just can't see the Union throwing away millions of lives over keeping the crappy old Intrepid and getting to build it's own fleet, especially considering that Confed, despite its faults, has never looked like the sort of organization that would fail to honor it's treaties. Maybe I misjudge them but on a whole I trust the Confederation government's word in foreign affairs. All of this is of course conjecture and irrelavent to the fact that the BWS Intrepid is returned to Confed after WCIV as per the winning path ending.
-Starcrunch
ELTEE
Vice Admiral
Who cares about the US Navy? We're talking about the Confederation, eons into the distant future!!
I can see that we may have been too far into the weeds back there about carrier stats, but I feel that's just in our nature - I mean, we seem to do that no matter what the topic!
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Key word being *local* defense forces. It would make sense for them to stay in their local area and also to be a force which Tolwyn could fall back upon to bolster his forces. As LOAF already said Tolwyn left that up to their discretion.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
He could be asking if it's a active UBW ship, because if it's not a UBW ship then there's no reason to declare war on the UBW in response to the attack. In False Colors a carrier converted by the Landreich ended up in Guild hands, so he might have wanted to make sure that Intrepid was still in UBW hands.
I still don't see any proof that the UBW having a carrier was considered an act of war, and I don't see any reason for Confed to allow Landreich to have carriers and not allow the UBW to have them. I know that there was oppostition to Landreich having carriers in False Colors but wasn't that mostly from the Belisarius Group?
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
I don't think you can use the example of the Bonadventure at all in this case. It was a testbed that was developed, tested and then deemed unfit for service. It sat docked until the Guild picked it up and used it for convoy escort. As well as the fact that Bonadventure was a ship developed by a sovereign nation for its own defense. The UBW was still in the process of becoming the UBW when the conversation takes place.
The Landreich is a sovereign nation. It declared independence during the war and it was recognized as such by the Confederation (the reasoning behind that is the subject of a whole other thread). The UBW declared independence basically right before WC4 takes place.
Confed was opposed to Kruger going back and forth with Ragark. They didn't oppose the Landreich acquiring a small fleet (they were supplying the ships) but it was Karga that threw the balance of power off and would have affected how things could have played out in their minds. You can't argue that Confed was against the Landreich defending itself, I mean come on, Confed sold the Tarawa to the Landreich, which was one of the most famous ships in the Confederation. They obviously didn't oppose selling them older ships.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
You're forgetting that the UBWs wasn't recognized by the Confederation as its own independent state. As far as everyone was concerned they were still a part of the Confederation. I took it as the Confederation was willing to negotiate thier independence as they said, "Ok you want your independence, you now have to fly with Confed escort through our space."
Which caused all kinds of outrage. With the increase in piracy, a "state" trying to negotiate its secession having its own military machine could be seen as an act of terrorism. Thus a prelude to war.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
I understand that most of Confed didn't oppose Landreich having escort carriers and older ships. What I don't understand is why people think that Confed would oppose the UBW having a light carrier that is a modified version of a design that Confed apparently retired before the escort carriers entered service.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Holy shit. You are killing me here.
"that most" where did you get that? Confed didn't oppose the sale of older ships to the Landreich. As fast as Confed could decommission them Kruger was buying them up.
The UBW DID NOT EXIST until immediately prior to WC4. They were Confed systems that seceded to form the UBW. The problem is that these systems then went on to arm themselves as well as create a source of power projection (Intrepid). This directly flies in the face of Confed who is the nominal government of those systems.
The age/modification of the Intrepid has no bearing on the discussion. The fact that newly seceded systems had formed the UBW and then created a fighting force was enough to piss off Confed. It's essentially the same thing as the Union in the American Civil War. It's goal was the reunification of the country, the same goal Confed would have had had they gone to war.
frostytheplebe
Seventh Part of the Seal
Sigh... look you're starting to really get to everyones breaking point. I think I'm gonna log off for a while and relax.
The UBW got its freedom, but they gave the Intrepid back to the Confederation. All the pilots went back as well. I know it doesn't seem fair or correct, but thats the treaty they agreed to.
Just accept it already ok? Don't get yourself banned again over something so trivial.
I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to help you out here.
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
I just want to point out one last thing, in response to Dundradal comparing the events of WVIV.
It's a bit different then the Civil War. The UBW wasn't offically part of the Confederation. The UBW never signed the Articles of Confederation but they had allied themselves with the Confederation during the Kilrathi War. When they tried to reassert their independence the pro-war party claimed that the fact that they weren't legally part of Confed didn't really matter because they had been allied with the Confederation during the war, and their citizens were descended from Confederation citizens.
It's a bit different then the Civil War. The UBW wasn't offically part of the Confederation. The UBW never signed the Articles of Confederation but they had allied themselves with the Confederation during the Kilrathi War. When they tried to reassert their independence the pro-war party claimed that the fact that they weren't legally part of Confed didn't really matter because they had been allied with the Confederation during the war, and their citizens were descended from Confederation citizens.
Eder
Mr. Standoff
You don't understand why Confed doesn't want a secessionist movement to have a carrier, or what the difference is between a secessionist movement having carriers and a sovereign nation having carriers...?
As LOAF pointed out, apparently the UBW's declaration of independence (while possibly not the best thing that had ever happened to Confed) wasn't enough for the senate to declare war, but "an active BW ship" was. Even if you manage to take that quote in some other meaning, the issue that we see the Intrepid as a trainer crewed by Confed pilots in WC4 remains - regardless of the reasons why it was returned, and regardless of Confed's sentiment towards the BW having active carriers... As Starcrunch said, you're trying to argue that what we see isn't there.
As LOAF pointed out, apparently the UBW's declaration of independence (while possibly not the best thing that had ever happened to Confed) wasn't enough for the senate to declare war, but "an active BW ship" was. Even if you manage to take that quote in some other meaning, the issue that we see the Intrepid as a trainer crewed by Confed pilots in WC4 remains - regardless of the reasons why it was returned, and regardless of Confed's sentiment towards the BW having active carriers... As Starcrunch said, you're trying to argue that what we see isn't there.
Dundradal
Frog Blast the Vent Core!
Are you serious?
How can systems that are not part of the Confederation secede from it?
RogueBanshee
Rear Admiral
My best guess is that they remained allied with Confed until Confed started accusing them of the Project's raids and then started organizing their own seperate forces as a percaution. After Confed attacked Tyr they realized that they couldn't count on Confed anymore so they severed the alliance.