BWS status

1: IIRC either the game or the novel states that Speradon was a Confed base inside UBW territory.

2: What would the point of UBW becoming independent be if they're going to give Confed control of their military forces?

3: we know of 5, possibly 6, Intrepid crewmembers who rejoin Confed. We also know that Garibaldi, the post conflict captain of the Intrepid, was not one of those 5 or 6.

4: The novel states that Blair's command was assigned to assist the UBW forces, which means that there still had to be UBW forces to assist, so they couldn't have been dissloved.

5: There is no reason to believe that Confed was having a critical carrier shortage after the Kilrathi War. The intact Confed carriers we see would be close, if not greater, in combat potential then the BOT Confed fleet.

And if Confed was so desperate for carriers why would they have sold so many escort carriers to the Landreich, and scrapped at least one fleet carrier after the Kilrathi War ended?
 
"Wilford: Now, the other operation is in Speradon, another Border Worlds territory, where a Confed shipyard has geared up in anticipation of war..." (citation after Wedges script), so it is confed shipyard, but BW space.

Now, Star*Soldier suggests, that by 2700 the Outworld Fleet is an important power in the region, and it would be at least strange, if they didn't have carriers of ther own. What we know about returning to confed is that Blair, Maniac, Hawk and Wilford (and most probably Panther) returned to confed, but we don't really know about anyone else. IIRC we don't even know abot Catscratch (sure, he became general, but is it anywhere stated he bacame confed general?)
 
And as for Intrepid - I belive that it was just the fact that Confed said something like "we lent thiis ship to you during the war. Now, war is over, so give it back. In pretty the same way the Polish Navy in Exile had to give back all the "borrowed" ships to Royal Navy after WWII, even though some of them were quickly mothballed afterwards, and even though some of them were pretty old and outdated designs like a Danae-class Cruiser
 
Why aren't you replying to the things I say? I don't understand what the barrier here is. You're ignoring the spirit and the point of the discussion for... no reason I can understand.

1: IIRC either the game or the novel states that Speradon was a Confed base inside UBW territory.
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The Universe Map says Speradon stayed with the Confederation; the novel features Wilford regretting he decided to attack sovereign Confederation territory after the raids. Speradon may be in the border worlds but it is not part of the Union of Border Worlds.

2: What would the point of UBW becoming independent be if they're going to give Confed control of their military forces?
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Again, you're making far too broad an assumption based on too little information... but no, a nation's freedom is not defined by its ability to provide force projection. How many countries have aircraft carriers today? The United States, England, France... Brazil, maybe? Can you imagine that the others think they're independant nations?! Screw the formation of representative government, one of the fundamental rights of man is to have airplanes that can land in the sea!

3: we know of 5, possibly 6, Intrepid crewmembers who rejoin Confed. We also know that Garibaldi, the post conflict captain of the Intrepid, was not one of those 5 or 6.
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Hawk, Eisen, Blair, Maniac, Panther, Catscratch, Dekker, Wilford... that eight, right there. Nearly every character we meet in the game returns to the Confederation military.

4: The novel states that Blair's command was assigned to assist the UBW forces, which means that there still had to be UBW forces to assist, so they couldn't have been dissloved.
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As *already discussed*, this would necessarily be *before* he opts for a flight instructor slot. Either argue the point or don't, but drop this passive-aggressive stuff.

5: There is no reason to believe that Confed was having a critical carrier shortage after the Kilrathi War. The intact Confed carriers we see would be close, if not greater, in combat potential then the BOT Confed fleet.

And if Confed was so desperate for carriers why would they have sold so many escort carriers to the Landreich, and scrapped at least one fleet carrier after the Kilrathi War ended?
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I didn't say this, I discounted this. Read the things I write.

IIRC we don't even know abot Catscratch (sure, he became general, but is it anywhere stated he bacame confed general?)
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Yes, the "TCSF (Ret.)" after his title.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Again, you're making far too broad an assumption based on too little information... but no, a nation's freedom is not defined by its ability to provide force projection. How many countries have aircraft carriers today? The United States, England, France... Brazil, maybe? Can you imagine that the others think they're independant nations?! Screw the formation of representative government, one of the fundamental rights of man is to have airplanes that can land in the sea!
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Brazil definitely does. They bought an oldBritish WW2 carrier and Converted into the Minas Gerias(sp???) I assume they still have it. They also have an old French carrier.

Russia still has a few, even though they're trying to offload them.

India bought a couple of the Russian carriers, though i'm not sure if they've deployed them yet.

China bought a couple but does not have any currently deployed.

Italy has a pair of them.

Spain has 1

Honestly, I would argue the point about England having carriers. They don't have any "true" aircraft carriers. All they have is a pair of Invincible class helicopter carriers. Though they do have an awesome looking new carrier design in production that i personally can't wait to see!

Honestly Loaf, I can see both points though. You have to ask yourself; Is an Independent Country truly an Independent country if they can't even defend themselves?
Yes they have thier own Government, yes they have thier own economy, but are they really "Independent"?
Take Japan for example. They are the third largest country in terms of economic growth. They have a strong Gov't and live pretty well... that being said, look over at Yokosuka, Japan. There is a very old U.S. Aircraft Carrier stationed there. USS Kitty Hawk. Which is there for Japan's defense. So are they really independent?

P.S. Personally, I don't know why the US doesn't just give the Japanese that carrier. Its so obselete by todays standards and it barely even puts to sea anymore. They only reason its still in service is because Japan didn't want a Nuclear powered carrier in thier waters.
 
Neither aircraft carriers nor spacecraft carriers are for defense, though -- they're for power projection... which was exactly what Paladin was worried about.
 
IIRC if the games and the novels clash aren't the novels supposed to be the final word? If that's true then Catscratch didn't defect because Blair thinks about how he's still on the Lex just before Blair self-destructs the torpedo he launched at the Lex.

And the Delphi/Intrepid wasn't a loan, it was sold to one of the BW miltias just like all of the destroyers and escort carriers that were sold to the Landreich.
 
frostytheplebe said:
Brazil definitely does. They bought an oldBritish WW2 carrier and Converted into the Minas Gerias(sp???) I assume they still have it. They also have an old French carrier.

Russia still has a few, even though they're trying to offload them.

India bought a couple of the Russian carriers, though i'm not sure if they've deployed them yet.

China bought a couple but does not have any currently deployed.

Italy has a pair of them.

Spain has 1
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If we use your definition of a *real* aircraft carrier, then Russia had only one commissioned, the Admiral Kuznetsov (or Tblisi, depending on what year you're talking about.) The other carriers like the Kiev class you speak of were designed for VSTOL (Yak-38) aircraft, like the *fake* British carriers.

India is currently in the process of finalizing the sale and deployment of the Kuznetsov.

@LOAF: You mean that our Constitution doesn't explicitly spell out our right to sea landing aircraft?? Gosh, my AP gov't professor in HS must have been lying to all of us...:rolleyes:
 
RogueBanshee said:
IIRC if the games and the novels clash aren't the novels supposed to be the final word? If that's true then Catscratch didn't defect because Blair thinks about how he's still on the Lex just before Blair self-destructs the torpedo he launched at the Lex.

And the Delphi/Intrepid wasn't a loan, it was sold to one of the BW miltias just like all of the destroyers and escort carriers that were sold to the Landreich.
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I don't understand that personally. Isn't the game the original medium, therefore it shoud be the true canon.

ELTEE said:
If we use your definition of a *real* aircraft carrier, then Russia had only one commissioned, the Admiral Kuznetsov (or Tblisi, depending on what year you're talking about.) The other carriers like the Kiev class you speak of were designed for VSTOL (Yak-38) aircraft, like the *fake* British carriers.

India is currently in the process of finalizing the sale and deployment of the Kuznetsov.
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I believe I said "true" not "real." True as in when we think of US Aircraft Carriers we think of the CV type of ship: Enterprise, Nimitz, Constellation, JFK, etc. We usually do not include the LHDs: Tarawa, Wasp, and Kearsarge.

I stand corrected on the Russian one, I swore I thought they had one or two more that they were trying to sell off.
 
IIRC if the games and the novels clash aren't the novels supposed to be the final word? If that's true then Catscratch didn't defect because Blair thinks about how he's still on the Lex just before Blair self-destructs the torpedo he launched at the Lex.
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You're confusing two things - when a game has two optional paths the novel defines which was 'officially' chosen... (ie, choosing Speradon) when there's a contradiction between the two then the *game* is correct.

And the Delphi/Intrepid wasn't a loan, it was sold to one of the BW miltias just like all of the destroyers and escort carriers that were sold to the Landreich.
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We don't know that, it isn't stated anywhere - Blair's first reaction is just that it "looks like" one of the destroyers that had been sold off. Even if it were the case then it still doesn't mean anything... since there's an obvious practical difference between selling a destroyer to your own militia unit and providing an effective carrier to a foreign nation (when various states left the Union before the Civil War, the debate over who 'owned' the military hardware stored in them was a huge issue.)

Again, though, you aren't opening your mind to anything at all (and you're continuing to ignore arguments, which is obnoxious.) We simply don't know *why* the Intrepid is apparently in Confederation colors at the end of the game. It wasn't even necessarily a prize or the result of a treaty issue (though those are both possible) -- it's quite possible that the Union of Border Worlds just didn't want the thing. It was not only badly crippled but may also have brought up the exact issue that many countries around the world have faced in the past few decades: that operating some symbolic piece of force-projection hardware doesn't really mesh with the realities of their budgets.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
You're confusing two things - when a game has two optional paths the novel defines which was 'officially' chosen... (ie, choosing Speradon) when there's a contradiction between the two then the *game* is correct.



We don't know that, it isn't stated anywhere - Blair's first reaction is just that it "looks like" one of the destroyers that had been sold off. Even if it were the case then it still doesn't mean anything... since there's an obvious practical difference between selling a destroyer to your own militia unit and providing an effective carrier to a foreign nation (when various states left the Union before the Civil War, the debate over who 'owned' the military hardware stored in them was a huge issue.)

Again, though, you aren't opening your mind to anything at all (and you're continuing to ignore arguments, which is obnoxious.) We simply don't know *why* the Intrepid is apparently in Confederation colors at the end of the game. It wasn't even necessarily a prize or the result of a treaty issue (though those are both possible) -- it's quite possible that the Union of Border Worlds just didn't want the thing. It was not only badly crippled but may also have brought up the exact issue that many countries around the world have faced in the past few decades: that operating some symbolic piece of force-projection hardware doesn't really mesh with the realities of their budgets.
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Budget issiues and repair prices I could see as a reason for trying to sell it, but why would Confed want to buy it?
 
Your mind is intact.

RogueBanshee what the hell is your argument except to say things that make no sense? LOAF answers your argument so then you come up with some other random angle which ignores LOAF's reply but tries to make it seem like you have a solid argument. You don't and it's painfully obvious.
 
Dundradal said:
Your mind is intact.

RogueBanshee what the hell is your argument except to say things that make no sense? LOAF answers your argument so then you come up with some other random angle which ignores LOAF's reply but tries to make it seem like you have a solid argument. You don't and it's painfully obvious.
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1: We know from the end of the novel that Intrepid was still in UBW hands.

2: No one has come up with a reasonable explaination for why Confed would want Intrepid back when all of Intrepid's sister ships, including the ship that became the Intrepid, were retired and sold off a decade earlier.

3: Some people are claiming that Intrepid was a loan and not actually sold to the BW miltia, but have offered absloutly no evidence to support that claim.
 
I have absolutely no idea what's going on here. You understand that other people are posting things to this thread, right? Things you can read? Drop whatever this inane gimmick is.
 
frostytheplebe said:
Honestly, I would argue the point about England having carriers. They don't have any "true" aircraft carriers. All they have is a pair of Invincible class helicopter carriers. Though they do have an awesome looking new carrier design in production that i personally can't wait to see!
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The Invincible class are Light Carriers, the equivalent of the Ranger class, designed to carry Sea Harrier FRS.1 . Helicopter carrier is their secondary roles. The UK had fighters launch from the class during the Falklands conflict and currently have Harrier GR9 flown by two Fleet Air Arm and two RAF squadrons assigned to them, so more than just helicopters. Please do your research before you make comments like that.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I have absolutely no idea what's going on here. You understand that other people are posting things to this thread, right? Things you can read? Drop whatever this inane gimmick is.
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The probelm is that most of their claims have no evidence beyond the idea that there are a few Confed pilots on the ship, and the ship was repainted so it must be a Confed ship then.

As for the Civil War issue you mentioned, if the South had been granted it's independence then they would have claimed the military assets you mentioned.
 
The "problem" is that you are behaving very badly. You asked why people thought the Intrepid had been returned to the Confederation and you were very clearly told that it was because the game made clear that it was... and then... I don't know, some giant pile of passive-aggressive weirdness?
 
They stated why they felt that Intrepid was returned to Confed, I pointed out that given that Confed had retired the Durango class 10 years earlier there was no reason for Confed to want it. No one has explained why Confed would want such an outdated ship. I suppose the UBW might have traded Intrepid for Princeton, though I have no idea why Confed would agree to such a lopsided deal.
 
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