Which ship do you want to fly on UE2?

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
Now you've gone and confused me .

No, no. Battledog complicated things, I made them simple again. There's no such thing as a "heavy light fighter". It's an oxymoron. If the fighter it's too heavy to be a light fighter, it's not a light fighter.

 

[Quarto]

Well, seriously... while "heavy light fighter" would be a very dumb-sounding category, there's no reason to assume that all light fighters are equally "light". After all, these categories are more like sections of a continuum than a scale of 1 to 4 or something. So, you could have a fighter which is just a little bit too light to qualify as a medium fighter, but which is still rather heavy for a light fighter. But I agree on one thing - they do not need their own separate categories. Next thing you know, we'd be discussing if the Arrow is a Light Heavy Light Fighter or a Heavy Medium Light Fighter or some such thing .

 

[Ijuin]

I think that fighters can fit into a spectrum instead of just being categorized as straight light/medium/heavy. So, from lighteat to heaviest, we have:

Ultralight: Hornet, Ferret
Characterized by very thin shields and armor, and a minimal missile load.

Light: Arrow
Characterized by emphasis on shields over armor, and a missile load that allows engagement of heavy targets.

Light/Medium: Banshee, Pirhana
Characterized by maximized armor without sacrificing high speed.

Medium: Hellcat, Tigershark
Attempts to balance speed and attack power to produce a multipurpose fighter. Unfortunately one often ends up with too much of one and not enough of the other.

Medium/Heavy: Rapier, Excalibur
Packs more attack power than Medium fighters, but not necessarily more shielding and armor. Emphasis in on speed and attack--quick in, quick kill, quick out.

Slow Heavy: Thunderbolt, Vindicator, Shrike
Emphasis is on attack and defense power, not speed.

Fast Heavy: Morningstar, Dragon, Vampire
All the stops are pulled out here in an attempt to maximize speed, attack, and defense. Not always the best in any one category, but always better in all three than medium fighters.

Heavy Bomber: Broadsword, Longbow, Avenger, Devastator
Designed specifically for taking on heavy targets, the heavy bomber has lots of missiles and torpedoes, medium-to-heavy guns, and super heavy armor. Speed is sacrificed in favor of additional protection under the philosophy that it will be faster to simply kill your enemy than to try to dodge it when you have such a heavy weapon loadout.

 

[Quarto]

No, no, no... we mustn't go there! If we go there, we will lose our sanity!

 

[Dominator]

This whole thing with categories light/medium/heavy is simply stupid (I know it`s official designation, but this is still my opinion)
They should be put into categories that describe their role (Interceptor, Air/Space superiority, Patrol/Recon, Multi-role, Attack/Strike, Bomber).We also should assume that there are different versions of the same types. This is how aircraft are descibed in real life. But if you like endless dicussions about light/medium/heavy - it`s your choice....

 

[Onde Pik]

/me loves the Tarsus

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Dominator
This whole thing with categories light/medium/heavy is simply stupid (I know it`s official designation, but this is still my opinion)
They should be put into categories that describe their role (Interceptor, Air/Space superiority, Patrol/Recon, Multi-role, Attack/Strike, Bomber).We also should assume that there are different versions of the same types. This is how aircraft are descibed in real life. But if you like endless dicussions about light/medium/heavy - it`s your choice....

Well, WCP-era Confed has gone in that direction. I agree that light/medium/heavy aren't very good categories, and certainly UE's Border Worlds have been making steps in that direction - while there are still light/medium/heavy fighters, these now refer mostly to space superiority/interceptor/multi-role craft - the ships whose primary task is combat against other fighters. Other ships get classified under more relevant categories.

 

[BattleDog]

What ticks me off is people forget how good a fighter is once the newer ones come out.

Remember, with the exception of the Bloodfang and the "Rock Fighter", the Excal and Thud were the heaviest in WCIII. Note, this does not include the bombers.

By WCIV it seems newer shields are coming into use. The Excal probably got it's 50cm upgrade right after WCIV.

As to roles:

Arrow/Piranha: Light Fighter, combines recon, superiorety, intercept and escort. Actually intercept and escort come under the same heading really.

Hellcat/Tigershark: Multi-Role, designed for patrol, light strike, escort, just about every "gap".

Thunderbolt/Vind: Attack Fighter, kills light Cap Ships and Heavy fighters, should really have escort. The design is based around firepower, with the ability to take enough punishment to deliver it's ordinance.

Longbow/Dev: Torpedo Bomber, kills Cap Ships.

Beacat/Wasp: Interceptor, designed to take out heavy targets long before they get into range. The Bearcat is also a heavy dogfighter.

Excalibur/Vampire: Superiorety/Multi Role, less a case of "jack" and more of "master" of all trades. The accent is on dogfighting but this baby does just about anything.

Banshee: Another jack of all trades, only this one is more Light than Medium. It's primary guns aren't anything to shout about but the secondaries are vicious. The Missile loadout is equil to the Bearcat.

Shrike: Something new, a strike bomber. This is NOT a good example, poor handling and guns leave this fighter cold without escort. However it's ability to deliver ordinance quickly is valuable.

Thats just my take. To properly classify all the fighters you have to take in everything, armor, guns, missiles. Then you have to weight everything, work out a scale and assess every fighter. This would take atleast weeks, if not months.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Ijuin
Medium: Hellcat, Tigershark
Attempts to balance speed and attack power to produce a multipurpose fighter.

Slow Heavy: Thunderbolt, Vindicator, Shrike
Emphasis is on attack and defense power, not speed.

Heavy Bomber: Broadsword, Longbow, Avenger

The Shrike is a dedicated bomber, depends on escort and is useless as a fighter. It's preposterous to put it on the same category of the Thunderbolt, Blair's personal fighter during WC3.

The Avenger, on the other hand, is multi-role and works really good as a fighter. It’s definitely not in the same category of the Devastator or the Broadsword. In fact, it’s much more like the Thunderbolt. Historically speaking, Blair used an Avenger to fight off fighters from the Lexington and than disabled the carrier with leech weapons. Also, the UBW used Avengers to defend an important installation.

For the medium fighter, the Vindicator does basically the same job as the Hellcat. Both are atmospheric capable fighters. The Vindicator is multi-role: it’s used both for escort and for strike, and all other medium fighter roles. Hellcats and Vindicators dueled in the skies of Tyr VII, and those are considered very difficult missions. This obsession in impugning the official classifications lacks consistence.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Dominator
This whole thing with categories light/medium/heavy is simply stupid (I know it`s official designation, but this is still my opinion)
They should be put into categories that describe their role (Interceptor, Air/Space superiority, Patrol/Recon, Multi-role, Attack/Strike, Bomber).We also should assume that there are different versions of the same types. This is how aircraft are descibed in real life. But if you like endless dicussions about light/medium/heavy - it`s your choice....

Actually, in WCP the official designation is Space Superiority, Class A / B Torpedo Bomber, etc.

It's official, and it makes sense.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
This obsession in impugning the official classifications lacks consistence.

This sentence lacks more than consistence, it lacks sense .

(also, in your discussion of the Hellcat and the Vindicator, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Vindicator has a rear turret and three torpoedoes - clearly, their roles are not as identical as you claim they are)

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
This sentence lacks more than consistence, it lacks sense .

You are a really funny guy, Quartro. On the other tread you complained when I disagreed without giving any reason or addressing any points. Now, you do the exact same thing.

(also, in your discussion of the Hellcat and the Vindicator, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Vindicator has a rear turret and three torpoedoes - clearly, their roles are not as identical as you claim they are)

The Vindicator is a multi-role fighter. It can do anything the Hellcat can, and it can also use its torpedoes to attack enemy capships. It's just a laser turret, and it doesn't prove anything.

The Dragon and the Excalibur have no turrets, but are heavy fighters. The Epee can carry a torpedo, but it’s not.

Now, let's get past these silly concepts and go to how the Vindicator was actually used in the game:

A) Defend / Patrol (Tyr VII)
B) Escort (Circe)
C) Space Superiority (Sol Jump Point)

Not inconsistent with the role of a medium fighter. How hard is it to grasp this concept? Multiple official sources clearly states it’s a medium fighter. Unless you can prove it isn't, just drop it.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
You are a really funny guy, Quartro. On the other tread you complained when I disagreed without giving any reason or addressing any points. Now, you do the exact same thing.

Oh, but my point here was that this sentence was pointless . I just don't see what "consistency" has to do with this "obsession with impugning official classifications". The reason why I didn't bother responding to the rest of your post (except the Vindicator/Hellcat bit) is because I really couldn't care less either way.

Not inconsistent with the role of a medium fighter. How hard is it to grasp this concept? Multiple official sources clearly states it’s a medium fighter. Unless you can prove it isn't, just drop it.

Ah, right. So, if a fighter had the stats of a bomber, but in the game was used only for patrols, you'd say that its role is not inconsistent with the role of a patrol fighter? My point is that, in your argument to prove that they are the same, you chose to ignore everything that makes them different. And this has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is classified as a medium or not - the post to which you were responding was trying to come up with a completely different (though silly) system of classification.

 

[Wedge009]

Originally posted by Quarto
So, if a fighter had the stats of a bomber, but in the game was used only for patrols...

Like, say... Blair's experience with the Broadsword bomber at the start of WC2?

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
My point is that, in your argument to prove that they are the same, you chose to ignore everything that makes them different.

Then you are completely wrong. My point is that they don't have to be the same in order to be medium fighters. How can that simple fact be too hard for you to understand?

Raptor. Thunderbolt. Excalibur. Dragon. All different. All heavy fighters.

The fact that the Vindicator is different from the Hellcat does not prevent it from being a medium fighter. Actually, it those 2 fighters more closely resemble each other than the Rapier and the Scimitar, or the Hornet, depending on the model.

It's surreal to discuss this.

"Hum, the Dragon has fission cannons and the Raptor doesn't, so OBVIOUSLY the Raptor is different. So the Dragon is a heavy bomber."

"The Scimitar has only 2 guns, so it can only be a hyper-light-patrol-fighter"

 

[StarLight]

I think that Battledog has the better idea if we must classify the ships. It must be done for roles, rather than stats. Stats can be very deceiving. That's why we're having problems categorising the ships. If we look at WCP and WCSO we find that the ships we fly are supposed to fit the role of the mission. If a long range attack is coming in, we send in the Wasps. We want to kill capships, send in the Shrike or Devastator (depending which squadron you are in) etc. This is unlike Wc3 and Wc4 where you can fly an Arrow when there are going to be half a dozen capships and still take them out.

In fact, come to think about, in WCP the squadron you are in is a factor in which ships you can fly. The Piranah is 'exclusive' for the Diamondback squadron. You don't get to fly the Devastator or Vampire until Casey is promoted to the Wolf Pack squadron (I acknowledge that they aren't available until the Wolf Pack guys arrive) but again Casey doesn't get to fly the Panthers until he gets promoted to the Black Widow squadron.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
Then you are completely wrong. My point is that they don't have to be the same in order to be medium fighters. How can that simple fact be too hard for you to understand?

Eh, the real question is, how hard can it be for you to understand that this has nothing to do with the medium/heavy debate from the other thread? Again, I repeat - Ijuin was trying to come up with classifications other than light/medium/heavy. I think the classifications he came up with were silly. However, I believe that it is even sillier to respond to his post with a hundred reasons why the Vindicator is a medium fighter, since his discussion is based on the premise that it doesn't matter whether it is classified as a medium fighter. So, if you want to prove him wrong, you can't do so while ignoring the fact that the Vindicator carries torpedoes and a turret, like the Thunderbolt, and unlike the Hellcat. And if you don't want to prove him wrong because you don't think his system is relevant, than you must prove that his system is wrong - which, again, has nothing to do with the Vindicator being a medium fighter. Got it?

 

[BattleDog]

I reckon those classifications are Okay, broadly speaking.

The Fact is the Thud can be used for patrols, so was the Vaktoth in WCIII.

You have to look at the stats, and the role. Also, the BW is strapped for fighters so they won't always use the best ship for the mission.

Just to through another spanner in:

In X-Wing the Multi-role fgighter is the Y-Wing.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by BattleDog
In X-Wing the Multi-role fgighter is the Y-Wing.

Interesting off topic comment. The X-Wing also is a multi-role fighter, since it's equipped by default with proton torpedoes (correct name?). The Y-Wing is used in the mission design more as a bomber, or to disable something. The A-Wing is the dedicated fighter. Sure thing the Y-Wing can too do fighter job, but it's too old to be much good.

At least it’s easy to know the basic TIE classes, since it’s on their names! Fighter, Interceptor and Bomber.

 

[Ghost]

The A-Wing, isn´t a *fighter* is an *interceptor*.