Tolwyn Knew, and Paladin is an Arse

[Mjr. Whoopass]

Did Forstchen make him the same villain in the WC4 novelization? (last one I still need to read) The End Run Tolwyn was made out to be a humanitarian who risked the Concordia and defied orders to give the Tarawa and her crew a fighting chance to make it back, when the game Tolwyn would have been content that the mission was accomplished, and congratulated them posthumously for a job well done.

Although IIRC his nephew was aboard the Tarawa, so it 'could' fit in with the game Tolwyn because it was a form of self preservation.

 

[Quarto]

Hmmm... but is there ever actually any event in any of the games (...before WC4)that would indicate that Tolwyn is indeed willing to sacrifice anyone like you guys suggest? I don't seem to recall any event that would make game Tolwyn so drastically different to novel Tolwyn.

 

[LeHah]

All the books do to Tolwyn is flesh him out. There is no radical departure in character, really.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

LeHah asked me to take a look over this thread.

(1) Could Tolwyn have known about the Nephilim back during the WC:IV era? While others here far more wiser about WC than myself would argue differently, part of me wants to say that within the scope of things, it could indeed be possible. When we play Prophecy and we look back to many of Tolwyn's speeches from WC:IV about the strong surviving and Confed needing to be prepared because we have no idea who will attack us next or when...it does seem like it could be foreboding or ominous. I firmly believe a fan fiction project could be written that could bridge just this kind of gap and have indeed considered it as a plot point for my own project, admittedly. What others feel is also indeed worth hearing at this point.

Yes, Tolwyn and the Confederation know about the Nephilim - this is discussed in the two novels published after Prophecy (Action Stations and False Colors). Both are, to some extent, platforms for making sense out of Tolwyn's actions in Wing Commander IV. In the former, Banbridge and Turner discuss a remote probe which has discovered a terrible warlike empire expanding from the other side of the galaxy. In the latter, Tolwyn himself justifies his actions by explaining (in internal dialogue) that there are more terrifying enemies moving towards the Confederation. The writer of the ICIS Manual also said, at the time, that it was meant to indicate that the Confederation knew more than they were saying about the aliens -- though this may simply refer to the fact that *Blair* knew basic facts about the threat when the Midway crew did not.

(2) Paladin...yeah, kind of strange that he'd just toss Blair to the dogs for biting his lip at that point, but to an extent, it makes some sense, I think. We're to assume here that Blair's gone completely off the radar and there's enough that's been going on and that Tolwyn could report on to seal the lid on him. Paladin and Blair go way back, but I also got the feeling Blair had kind of disappeared for years following the war. If he didn't charge in with something to say the second he entered the room, it adds suspicion and doubt as to why he was there to begin with. The whole last mission of Price of Freedom was a balsy gamble on Blair's part. To not have him charge ahead when he reaches the Assembly kind of defeats the purpose. There's too much at stake, too much to lose by not confronting Tolwyn right on the spot in front of everyone to condemn his words and actions. Paladin has to cater to the crowd...remember, up to this point Tolwyn's still a respected leader, so his word will carry more weight than Blair's unless Blair can level the playing field by showing the Assembly that he has something contrary worth contributing.

It's also important not to downplay the relationship between Paladin and Tolwyn. When Blair was just a boy, Paladin was Tolwyn's friend and protege -- though they are political opponents in WC4, the Senator owes his career to Tolwyn. Paladin got his start in covert operations from Tolwyn, and was his trusted lieutenant for many, many years.

Blair and Paladin were close friends, but that isn't the end of the universe (though Paladin does help him in the Senate in WC4 -- presumably because of evidence presented to him). As close as the two men are sometimes, Paladin is just as willing as Tolwyn to do things for the greater good at Blair's expense -- witness Angel, and not telling Blair about what happened. When Paladin and Tolwyn are having drinks at the ceremony for the Vesuvius, Tolwyn reports on Blair's defection. Paladin replies that Blair was "always a hothead". Taggart has his opinions, and they aren't necessarily that everything Blair does is right no matter what.

As for Blair not bringing evidence with him...at least in the scope of the game, did Blair even HAVE any tangible evidence?

Yes, he did -- remember, Vagabond died collecting classified communications that would help expose the conspiracy. He also had the biochemist's data disk, which included information on other aspects of the conspiracy -- including data on the Vesuvius and the Flash-Pak. Eisen took all this to the Confederation, and used it to secure the Mt. St. Helens. Presumably, Blair presented all of this to Paladin beforehand.

Also, lets take a moment for trivia and point out that the technical name for the Flash Pak is the "Internal Atmosphere Flash Ignition Bomb".

Okay, kewl. Am I correct in memory in that Mantu space was a long ways off from the Kilrathi border?

They left their border with the Kilrathi to face 'another threat', and were just returning at the end of the Terran-Kilrathi War. There was also a buffer of a thousand dead star systems, the former Hari Empire, between the Kilrathi and any other race. Here's 'all we know' about the Mantu, reposted:

The major conflict between the Empire of Kilrah and the Mantu began around 2429. Terran historians believe that it was borne out of Kilrathi aggression towards civilian Mantu ships. The Mantu, an paranoid, insular race of explorers and prospectors, reacted to these attacks with extreme prejudice, pursuing a major invasion of Kilrathi space. It was warfare on a scale unprecedented and overwhelming to the Kilrathi of the 25th century. The conflict ultimately ended around 2431 when the Mantu withdrew their forces to pursue warfare in another theater.

In the years that followed, the Kilrathi demonized the Mantu per their own sociological imperative. The Cult of Sivar religion, founded on the Prophecy of Sivar's threat that the species would be annihilated by Star Gods should they ever falter in battle, would not allow for a conflict to be so ignobly ended. The Kilrathi came to believe that the war was not over but rather that both sides were preparing for a second, prologned fight. In reality, the Mantu had offered no such threats and have not since shown any practical interest in continuing the conflict.

This belief, however, gained even more strength in 2598 when a border skrimish broke out between the two nations. The battle ended in another draw. At the same time, it further reinforced Kilrathi paranoia regarding the Mantu: during the fighting it became clear that Mantu technology had advanced more quickly than that of the Kilrathi. Overlooked entirely by the Kilrathi was the fact that they had again instigated the fighting - in the two and a half centuries since the close of the war there has not been a single recorded border violation on the part of the Mantu.

Details of the Mantu's 'other war' are scarce, save that it involved a neighboring race or races and that it lasted some 235 years, finally ending in 2666. The next year a long range probe informed Kilrathi leadership that the centuries old conflict had concluded with a Mantu victory. Two years later, similar reports claimed forces were being reapportioned along the Mantu-Kilrathi border. So, at the height of the Terran-Kilrathi War, an Empire honestly convinced it was threatened on two fronts prepared for the worst...

While "The Project" started before Tolwyn was a figurehead in it (LOAF, am I correct in saying this? I think this was mentioned in False Colors but its been years since I've read it), I do find some skepticism in that they wouldn't inform "the old man" about any intelligence they may have gathered.

This is correct, Tolwyn did not start the conspiracy.

Hmmm... but is there ever actually any event in any of the games (...before WC4)that would indicate that Tolwyn is indeed willing to sacrifice anyone like you guys suggest? I don't seem to recall any event that would make game Tolwyn so drastically different to novel Tolwyn.

Not in the games -- it comes from Wing Commander Academy (trading Blair and Grunt to get Thrakhath in Glory of Sivar... or his speech on this matter in Expendable.)

Did Forstchen make him the same villain in the WC4 novelization? (last one I still need to read) The End Run Tolwyn was made out to be a humanitarian who risked the Concordia and defied orders to give the Tarawa and her crew a fighting chance to make it back, when the game Tolwyn would have been content that the mission was accomplished, and congratulated them posthumously for a job well done.

The WC4 novel (and the two followups) certainly try to explain why Tolwyn went the way he did -- but they don't cover it up or change his actions at all.

As for the other books, Dr. Forstchen always likened Tolwyn to MacArthur -- if you liked him, you were fanatical about it and he would help your career. If you didn't, you really, really hated him. Bear was the former, Blair the latter. It's also important to note that the first set of books were written in the context of Special Operations 1 and 2... where Tolwyn is a good friend to even Blair (and especially Bear).

Also, take special note of WC2 itself... even when Tolwyn hates Blair, the crew of the Concordia rushes to the Admiral's defense. They all view him as an excellent commander. Pre-Malcolm McDowell Tolwyn was a bit more fleshed out...

However, Tolwyn's nebulous claims of species that make the "Kilrathi look like schoolyard bullies" doesn't really stick. Who are they? What information does he have beyond that? Apparently - nothing - because what else would be better to start another war than a forthcoming enemy?

I think the idea is that he believes the threat so terrifying that it can't be faced -- he doesn't even explain it to Bear when justifying the 'conspiracy' in False Colors -- he thinks about how he couldn't reveal it afterwards.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Actually, in one of Blair's outbursts before the Assembly once he's confronted Tolwyn, he likens Tolwyn's view to the cats, mocking him by saying something to the effect of, "why can't we be more like the Kilrathi?!" So yes, it's safe to say that the violence Tolwyn is prepared to have mankind embrace would set Confed on the same path as the Kilrathi (pre-Kilrah's destruction), thereby making him similar in vision to Confed's old enemies.

As for it being mentioned in previous games...it's kind of impossible to distinguish. At that point, Tolwyn is already in his element, already fighting the good fight, pitting mankind against an enemy. It was his job to send men and women to their deaths at times in the hopes of beating their enemy. In war, he just seems like a normal military leader. During peacetime, though, there's virtually no place for people like Tolwyn or Blair for that matter. Tolwyn decided to instigate a future conflict to get mankind fired up again. Blair faded into obscurity to try his hand at being a farmer which didn't really suit him. I always saw the two as different sides to the same coin - Blair just chose to put his gun down and walk away; Tolwyn pointed his at the next guy and tried to urge people on.

Ironically, it seemed like it became a recipe for their removal from the WC universe. Tolwyn's fire burned too bright and burned out in a fantastic bravado early because of it. Blair kept his in check, lasting longer, and finally was yanked away in a whisper.

I think that makes a good point. I think as for Tolwyn its a bit unfair to stereotyope him as the typical evil against good. Its worth remembering that he fought the kilrathi for almost his entire life and witnessed the loss of countless confederation civilians and soldiers whom he was responsible for. That in itself is a horrible responsibility for anyone to have to assume and the psychological harm in doing that obviously got the better of him as he was clearly unable to let go and find peace once the war was over. I mean to have to make decisions that you very well know will lead to the deaths of people must be terrible to do and I can imagine that in such a position you can easily lose empathy and morals.

It reminds me a lot like General Douglas MacArthur who won amazing battles in WW2 and help stabilize the Pacific region especially Japan but by the time of the Korean war he had clearly lost it and was responsible for the debacle which brought China into the conflict and costed 10,000s of American casualties. And then he went further and wanted to use nuclear weapons against China until he was fortunately sacked by Truman. But by then it was too late and the USA had been pushed back halfway down the Korean penninsula and had to settle for holding the South of Korea and abandoning the North. So I guess the moral of this event is that war and power corrupts people and Tolwyn was clearly no exception.


I think Quarto makes a good point about Blair getting to the assembly as well. You even see the video of him flying over the senate hall. Now try and fly an unmarked unidentified aircraft over the Pentagon or White House for the matter and see how far you get. I assume that in 600years time there will still be terroism and sabotage. So security around any major government building is guaranteed to be enormous. I guess the books interpretation of events makes more sense from what i've read on this thread (not having read the book unfortunately).

And as for Paladin not sticking up for Blair I agree that that was odd. Blair had his fights with Paladin but I think from what we see in WC3 i think that Paladin really did care for Blair. He knew at the start of WC3 with the loss of the Concordia + the Battle of Earth that Blair was suffering and to tell him that Angel was killed would be enough to break him. You can see how Blair may even be suffering from depression in WC3 especially when Rachel opens up to him on the flight deck of the Victory.

Blair was pushing himself to keep fighting the kilrathi and Angel was the only thing that he had keeping him going and then once the Behemoth is lost and he learns the truth he almost abandons the victory but when back on the carrier he is then is at risk of becoming an alcoholic. And when Paladin comes aboard remember that he says to Blair "I was protecting you from yourself". And its obvious that he was full of guilt and shame when he lied to Blair in the intro and you can see the remorse he has in his face when he admits to Blair that he knew Angel was dead. So there appears to be enough to suggest that Paladin should have assisted Blair even if he didnt rush in at the end of WC4.

But I wouldnt overrate the friendship between Tolwyn and Paladin as there was a lot of rivalry between them. Loaf makes some good points however if you read the opening fiction of WC4 there is more than one referance to Paladin and Tolwyn disliking each other esp over the climax of the war with the Behemoth and Temblor Bomb.

But as for the nephilim not having more than a couple of missions of WC5 I dont know enough on that subject but the ending of WC4 whilst incredible did seem to have a few plot holes. But I guess that came down to Chris Roberts directing as I presume he wanted Blair to have 2 distinct choices; one where he gets immediately arrested and shot and the other where he can lay his case against Tolwyn. So it may have simply been a matter of making a dramatic intro to the climax of the story.

 

[LeHah]

I think as for Tolwyn its a bit unfair to stereotyope him as the typical evil against good.

This is something emphasized time and again in the WC4 novelization, as well as False Colors and even Action Stations.

the psychological harm in doing that obviously got the better of him as he was clearly unable to let go and find peace once the war was over.

Don't think that what Tolwyn did was because of a mental breakdown or a medical condition. It was his lapse in moral judgement, the fact that he had legitimized what needed to be done and then doing it that was the problem. Tolwyn wasn't insane, he just did all the wrong things for a pretty right reason.

(However, one could point to Tolwyn losing his family early in his career as a possible reason for him turning out the way he did in the end. Their death is something that haunted him to the day he died - the WC4 novel shows that he left his ensign pips and a picture of his wife and child by his side when he hung himself)

Tt reminds me a lot like General Douglas MacArthur

That was what Dr Forstchen colored Tolwyn as. He's said so directly in the past.

You even see the video of him flying over the senate hall. Now try and fly an unmarked unidentified aircraft over the Pentagon or White House for the matter and see how far you get.

Well, the fighter does have cloaking abilities

But lets keep in mind that a video game narrative has to be more direct than a written book. Since it's visually based, seeing Blair land somewhere else, contact Paladin, get sneaked into the Senate building, probably debriefed by Paladin and then making his appearance would've slowed things down considerably.

And as for Paladin not sticking up for Blair I agree that that was odd. Blair had his fights with Paladin but I think from what we see in WC3 i think that Paladin really did care for Blair.

But not to the point of treason. I think that any friendship would be tested by something of that calibur.

He knew at the start of WC3 with the loss of the Concordia + the Battle of Earth that Blair was suffering and to tell him that Angel was killed would be enough to break him.

It's mentioned in the WC4 novel that Blair went through a serious bout of depression after the loss of the Tiger Claw, considering suicide.

But I wouldnt overrate the friendship between Tolwyn and Paladin as there was a lot of rivalry between them.

As LOAF pointed out, Paladin got where he was because of Tolwyn. I think this is rather well emphasized in the beginning of the Wing Commander movie, when Tolwyn is informed of the Diligent and it's crew. There is a look of reverence on David Warner's face that speaks volumes.

Loaf makes some good points however if you read the opening fiction of WC4 there is more than one referance to Paladin and Tolwyn disliking each other esp over the climax of the war with the Behemoth and Temblor Bomb.

I think that could be more from Tolwyn's end. The Behemoth was his project and it was destroyed because of a Kilrathi spy. He was dishonored by the loss and Paladin's success probably made him more than a little bitter.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Their death is something that haunted him to the day he died - the WC4 novel shows that he left his ensign pips and a picture of his wife and child by his side when he hung himself)

The photograph of his wife and children is actually added by Action Stations. The WC4 novel only lists his pips and his Medal of Honor.

But lets keep in mind that a video game narrative has to be more direct than a written book. Since it's visually based, seeing Blair land somewhere else, contact Paladin, get sneaked into the Senate building, probably debriefed by Paladin and then making his appearance would've slowed things down considerably.

And, of course, they *do* try to stop you -- you shoot down multiple Confed pilots on the way in.

This is a non-issue, though. Remember that Blair wasn't just flying a stealth fighter... he was flying a *friendly* fighter. Presumably with the Vesuvius destroyed Tolwyn was expecting Seether to arrive in an identical fighter.

 

[Mace]

Seether adressed me well on the way in, before i made my statement to him.

 

[KoN21]

Why didn't Seether kill Blair in the bar when he had the chance?
Is that the typical bad guy who wastes every good moment and spends the time he could use killing the good guy, explaining his diabolical plan?

 

[Thunderbolt]

Don't think that what Tolwyn did was because of a mental breakdown or a medical condition. It was his lapse in moral judgement, the fact that he had legitimized what needed to be done and then doing it that was the problem. Tolwyn wasn't insane, he just did all the wrong things for a pretty right reason.

(However, one could point to Tolwyn losing his family early in his career as a possible reason for him turning out the way he did in the end. Their death is something that haunted him to the day he died - the WC4 novel shows that he left his ensign pips and a picture of his wife and child by his side when he hung himself)

I guess but if theres a reason for his lapse in moral judgement and (since I've never found the novels in any bookshops I've never been able to read them ) the loss of Tolwyn's family is probably a good guess as to why. Probably being a major military commander probably made it worse as he wouldnt be able to escape and recover from his loses.

"But not to the point of treason. I think that any friendship would be tested by something of that calibur."

Well thats true. And it is made more difficult because for I don't think there are any more scenes with Paladin in the game after when is informed of Blairs defection until the end so we don't really what Paladin's perception is.

"I think that could be more from Tolwyn's end. The Behemoth was his project and it was destroyed because of a Kilrathi spy. He was dishonored by the loss and Paladin's success probably made him more than a little bitter."

Well thats seems more plausible. I did scan through some of the fiction in the WC4 manual again and your right that most of the hostility is from Tolwyn's end. Either way I guess it mostly comes down to politics which in any bureacracy is enough to make friends distrust each other.

As for Blair being able to use his stealth thats something I probably forgot about as well. Again that ultimately Roberts wanted to create a sense of urgency in the opening of the climax and a scene showing Blair doing some Mission Impossible espionage of trying to get past the guards outside the senate hall would unneccesarily slow down the plot. So I guess its not really necessary, either way Blair gets to the assembly.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Why didn't Seether kill Blair in the bar when he had the chance?
Is that the typical bad guy who wastes every good moment and spends the time he could use killing the good guy, explaining his diabolical plan?

I don't think Tolwyn would have permitted him to. Remember that Tolwyn still trusted Blair from his persective before he defects. And remember when Tolwyn says to Seether "He could have been truly a great warrior, now he's nothing more than a traitor". Tolwyn I think wanted to use Blair for his own schemes of enginnering a war with the Border Worlds and had no idea that he would have defected in the beginning of WC4.

But yeah its not uncommon for directors to make interaction between two opposing characters in their plots. Take for example Starwars Episodes 1-3 with the Jedi and Darth Sideous. Another I can remember is the Departed when the undercover cop meets the double agent.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I don't Tolwyn would have permitted him to. Remember that Tolwyn still trusted Blair from his persective before he defects. And remember when Tolwyn says to Seether "He could have been truly a great warrior, now he's nothing more than a traitor". Tolwyn I think wanted to use Blair for his own schemes of enginnering a war with the Border Worlds and had no idea that he would have defected in the beginning of WC4.

Seether wasn't there to hurt Blair -- he was there specifically to convince him that Tolwyn was right. Seether was at Nephele in the first place to torpedo the Orlando Depot, which would prove to newly reactivated Blair that the savage 'Border Worlds' were behind recent attacks. Blair, in turn, would be a powerful symbol for Tolwyn to have on his side.

Well thats true. And it is made more difficult because for I don't think there are any more scenes with Paladin in the game after when is informed of Blairs defection until the end so we don't really what Paladin's perception is.

They were friends, but they were above everything else patriots to their particular causes. Think of all the former West Point schoolmates who ended up leading armies against eachother in the Civil War. Paladin can't betray the Confederation solely on the word of a friend and stll be a good soldier (or civil servant).

 

[LeHah]

This is a non-issue, though. Remember that Blair wasn't just flying a stealth fighter... he was flying a *friendly* fighter.

I realize this is picking nits - but I sincerely doubt that any government body would allow let alone appreciate any type of craft buzzing their government buildings like out of a scene from Top Gun.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Seether wasn't there to hurt Blair -- he was there specifically to convince him that Tolwyn was right. Seether was at Nephele in the first place to torpedo the Orlando Depot, which would prove to newly reactivated Blair that the savage 'Border Worlds' were behind recent attacks. Blair, in turn, would be a powerful symbol for Tolwyn to have on his side.

I think thats what it comes down to. We don't know who that guy was whom Seether had his knife onto. However Seether was obviously there to spy on Blair (for how long I guess we don't know) and then to blow that station up in the Borderworlds ship to covince Blair that the Borderworlds were the enemy.

 

[LeHah]

We don't know who that guy was whom Seether had his knife onto.

In the novel, it's the pilot you give money / tell off in the bar - Evan Bean, I believe his name was. (He later dies helping Blair find the Black Lance jamming ship )

However Seether was obviously there to spy on Blair

I don't think there is any evidence of spying, per se - but it's a possibility, certainly.

 

[Thunderbolt]

In the novel, it's the pilot you give money / tell off in the bar - Evan Bean, I believe his name was. (He later dies helping Blair find the Black Lance jamming ship )

I don't think there is any evidence of spying, per se - but it's a possibility, certainly.

Ah ok that an intersting twist for the story.

Well as for spying confed HQ had sent Maniac to pick up Blair and Tolwyn obviously wanted to poison Blair against the Borderworlds so he sent Seether down to find Blair. Seethers job was then to fly ahead of Blair and nuke the Orlando base. Also remeber that in the WC4 opening cutscene where if you choose for Blair to ignore Seether (ain't my business) he actually turns and is watching Blair for a few seconds. That in itself maybe enough to suggest that Seether may have been watching Blair for at least the time that he probably arrived at the bar.