Tolwyn Knew, and Paladin is an Arse

[X_FIREFALCON]

Thats the point I made. What proof does Tolwyn have and even if he did have any, why wouldn't he use it as a selling point to restarting the Confed war machine?

LeHah, a man of few words, but good points. The only real arguments around this that I could come up with are (1) Tolwyn didn't know the extent of Black Lance's Operations and thus not the extent of all their intelligence; and/or (2) they knew the Nephilim threat was out there, but were uncertain as to when it would make its appearance, therefore could not justify before the Assembly gearing up to fight a boogeyman they might not encounter for the next several hundred years. Or who knows - maybe Tolwyn just targeted the Border Worlders because they had broken off from the Confederation following the war and so he figured they weren't patriotic enough to be left alive. I still don't like the whole "oh, he just popped his lid" argument for Tolwyn; it seems like a real callous way to cast off a character that was such a central part to WC history. Part of me wants to find a deeper motive behind his actions than him just being a crazy higher-up who's gone off his rocker; it makes him a far more complex character if there was a legitimate reason he was the way he was and did the things he did.

This actually is the case, in the novel. Let's face it, the game's ending taken by itself made no sense whatsoever - how did Blair even get into the Assembly? Wouldn't it be pretty highly protected, particularly with Tolwyn knowing that a Border Worlds carrier is in the system? And of course, why would there even be any debate about war, when a Border Worlds carrier had just jumped in and destroyed a Confed carrier? Tolwyn would've just shown a video of the fight (minus the St. Helens, of course), and that would have been the end of the debate right there. Similarly, assuming Blair did somehow get in, why didn't he bring along any evidence to show?

The book fixes all this, though - Blair and Eisen actually contact Paladin beforehand, and *he* actually brings them into the Assembly.

Now that last point there is an interesting tidbit, and in hindsight, it sure makes a whole hell of a lot more sense, I think, because you're right - there's no reason Blair would've been able to sneak past that security to reach the floor to begin with. Maybe he used his super-secret ninja moves?

As for Tolwyn forging the evidence on the Intrepid's actions to frame Blair, I'm not sure the man ever had the time to cook that up. If he had to splice out the part with the St. Helen's and everything, I'm not sure he would've had the chance since that whole last part was one great big race for time.

As for Blair not bringing evidence with him...at least in the scope of the game, did Blair even HAVE any tangible evidence? I don't think he brought any kind of camera or tape-recorder with him anywhere to document any of Black Lance's operations; about the only thing he'd have is some flight recorder information as he and the other pilots on the Intrepid danced with the Black Lance fighters, but I don't even know if there'd be anything conclusive in there either. The only things presented in Tolwyn's trial just seemed to be a bunch of people on the witness stand condemning his actions, but it just seems like a "he said" kind of ordeal. Of course there's the flashpak, but then again, wasn't that used on either a station or the Vesuvius?

 

[Quarto]

As for Blair not bringing evidence with him...at least in the scope of the game, did Blair even HAVE any tangible evidence? I don't think he brought any kind of camera or tape-recorder with him anywhere to document any of Black Lance's operations; about the only thing he'd have is some flight recorder information as he and the other pilots on the Intrepid danced with the Black Lance fighters, but I don't even know if there'd be anything conclusive in there either. The only things presented in Tolwyn's trial just seemed to be a bunch of people on the witness stand condemning his actions, but it just seems like a "he said" kind of ordeal. Of course there's the flashpak, but then again, wasn't that used on either a station or the Vesuvius?

He did have the data given to him by the biochemist, and probably quite a bit of other stuff - the fact that we don't see him recording anything in Axius doesn't mean he didn't do so. And there would have been a lot of circumstancial stuff, too - recordings of what happened on Telamon (Dragons in the sky included), flight recorder data linking the Dragon with the bioweapons, Axius and the Vesuvius, and so on.

 

[LeHah]

Tolwyn didn't know the extent of Black Lance's Operations and thus not the extent of all their intelligence

While "The Project" started before Tolwyn was a figurehead in it (LOAF, am I correct in saying this? I think this was mentioned in False Colors but its been years since I've read it), I do find some skepticism in that they wouldn't inform "the old man" about any intelligence they may have gathered.

On the other hand - the point of the Project / Black Lance was covert operations, not really intelligence gathering. (Obviously there would be exceptions made - but considering that the BL are just an extension of Confed/ConFleet, it's easily surmised that they wouldn't have any major independent information gathering resources)

they knew the Nephilim threat was out there, but were uncertain as to when it would make its appearance, therefore could not justify before the Assembly gearing up to fight a boogeyman they might not encounter for the next several hundred years.

To quote Sansky - "This is all sterile conjecture".

If Tolwyn knew there was a threat now or in a hundred years, he could've easily played it as a "this is who they are, this is what they can do, we must be ready." A good speechwriter could easily gleam over details like a timeframe, if just to get people jumpy. Once Tolwyn had that, he could have his fleet in no time.

However, Tolwyn's nebulous claims of species that make the "Kilrathi look like schoolyard bullies" doesn't really stick. Who are they? What information does he have beyond that? Apparently - nothing - because what else would be better to start another war than a forthcoming enemy?

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

He did have the data given to him by the biochemist, and probably quite a bit of other stuff - the fact that we don't see him recording anything in Axius doesn't mean he didn't do so. And there would have been a lot of circumstancial stuff, too - recordings of what happened on Telamon (Dragons in the sky included), flight recorder data linking the Dragon with the bioweapons, Axius and the Vesuvius, and so on.

Valid points with potential, Quarto. But then the issue at this point in the story is more about stopping Tolwyn than Black Lance. If Blair had arrived with that evidence, it would've given the Assembly something worth looking at, but Tolwyn could've perhaps just distanced himself from the organization at that point in time and continued his call to arms (none of that information would necessarily throw Tolwyn in with the guilty crowd). It seemed more to me like Blair's entire presence on the Assembly floor was to force a confession out of Tolwyn, to get him to admit his contributions to things so that his entire presentation of the evils committed by the Union of Border Worlds would have to be completely discounted. Now, while I think the dialogue could have been handled better (it seemed to me from the phraseology that Tolwyn was all too eager to follow up everything Blair was saying with "he's right")...perhaps the evidence could have been handed over by Blair as proof of his claims as he made them rather than at a lump sum before he even started, so that way he had one ace up the sleeve after another that Tolwyn would've been ignorant of until after he established his connection with Black Lance? Perhaps that would've been a bit more believable than having Tolwyn admit to each claim if Blair had the damning evidence right there with him.

On the other hand - the point of the Project / Black Lance was covert operations, not really intelligence gathering. (Obviously there would be exceptions made - but considering that the BL are just an extension of Confed/ConFleet, it's easily surmised that they wouldn't have any major independent information gathering resources)

Very good point there, LeHah. Space is too vast a thing, and while Black Lance has some toys, it's kind of ridiculous to assume that they can do anything, although their vast jamming technology suggests to me that they're capable of somewhat impressive feats. Regardless, though, it seems that in WC:IV, Black Lance is really pushing for the war against the Border Worlders, so just simply from a philosophical standpoint, it seems somewhat illogical that there's a planned war out there on the horizon they're expecting to greet the Confederation anytime soon, else they wouldn't be so intent on creating a civil war to distract mankind from that potential threat and diminish its resources leading up to it. So yeah, after giving it some thought, I'm inclined to agree with you on this one.

If Tolwyn knew there was a threat now or in a hundred years, he could've easily played it as a "this is who they are, this is what they can do, we must be ready." A good speechwriter could easily gleam over details like a timeframe, if just to get people jumpy. Once Tolwyn had that, he could have his fleet in no time.

However, Tolwyn's nebulous claims of species that make the "Kilrathi look like schoolyard bullies" doesn't really stick. Who are they? What information does he have beyond that? Apparently - nothing - because what else would be better to start another war than a forthcoming enemy?

Wow...very strong argument there, LeHah, and I'm just not sure that I can come up with anything to counteract it. I could try to argue that there are particular threats out there that Tolwyn feels mankind is horribly unprepared for and that rather than revealing the specifics, he has this long-term agenda to make mankind push itself to be better over time in preparation for said confrontation...but even there, you're still right - it'd be his winning card (kind of something akin to the Kilrathi Prophecy), and there's surely some way he could present it so as to win over the crowd.

So yeah, I'm just going to have to give this one up due to your compelling counter, LeHah. Kudos to you on that one, man.

 

[Dran]

So, then given all this information, I guess we can agree that Tolywin did not know about the bugs. It just seems rather odd he would back this jump to a Darwinist approach of the strongest shall survive. But then again I guess if you stare to long into the Abyss the Abyss stares back. Can it then be said that Tolywin has become the Killrathi? Not in physical aspect, but in belief, and that his belief’s are so strong in conviction that he confesses them, leading to his demise? Where was this belief in any of the previous Wing Commanders?

 

[X_FIREFALCON]

Actually, in one of Blair's outbursts before the Assembly once he's confronted Tolwyn, he likens Tolwyn's view to the cats, mocking him by saying something to the effect of, "why can't we be more like the Kilrathi?!" So yes, it's safe to say that the violence Tolwyn is prepared to have mankind embrace would set Confed on the same path as the Kilrathi (pre-Kilrah's destruction), thereby making him similar in vision to Confed's old enemies.

As for it being mentioned in previous games...it's kind of impossible to distinguish. At that point, Tolwyn is already in his element, already fighting the good fight, pitting mankind against an enemy. It was his job to send men and women to their deaths at times in the hopes of beating their enemy. In war, he just seems like a normal military leader. During peacetime, though, there's virtually no place for people like Tolwyn or Blair for that matter. Tolwyn decided to instigate a future conflict to get mankind fired up again. Blair faded into obscurity to try his hand at being a farmer which didn't really suit him. I always saw the two as different sides to the same coin - Blair just chose to put his gun down and walk away; Tolwyn pointed his at the next guy and tried to urge people on.

Ironically, it seemed like it became a recipe for their removal from the WC universe. Tolwyn's fire burned too bright and burned out in a fantastic bravado early because of it. Blair kept his in check, lasting longer, and finally was yanked away in a whisper.

 

[LeHah]

Very good point there, LeHah. Space is too vast a thing, and while Black Lance has some toys, it's kind of ridiculous to assume that they can do anything, although their vast jamming technology suggests to me that they're capable of somewhat impressive feats.

The jamming in and of it's self is not all that impressive. While the Project / Black Lance has some nice superfighters and flashpacks - the majority of their technology is based on Confed science. Why? Because they're part of Confed, albeit a clandestine group.

I think the game doesn't really do a good job of making this point, in that they give the player super- fighters that cloak and can destroy capital ships with narry an effort. But the be all, end all is that the Black Lance conspiracy is a part of the Confederation military, and so, their technology is largely "borrowed". Sometimes it's obvious (The Vesuvius, black painted Hellcats) and other times it's not (the jamming ship) but I sincerely doubt that the only time large-scale jamming was used was during this timeframe. Didn't Radio Rollins complain about Kilrathi jamming during Wing Commander III?

Regardless, though, it seems that in WC:IV, Black Lance is really pushing for the war against the Border Worlders, so just simply from a philosophical standpoint, it seems somewhat illogical that there's a planned war out there on the horizon they're expecting to greet the Confederation anytime soon

Long story short - no one knew the bugs were coming.

I could try to argue that there are particular threats out there that Tolwyn feels mankind is horribly unprepared for and that rather than revealing the specifics, he has this long-term agenda to make mankind push itself to be better over time in preparation for said confrontation...

That could be the case - but consider a couple things.

1.) Screenwriters Borst and DePalma had no clue what the fifth installment would be like. I'm sure they got the idea that there would be one, considering the success of the series - so at best, Tolwyn's open-ended statements of another enemy can at best be seen as a wink-wink, nudge-nudge of the least subtle kind.

2.) Tolwyn makes no concrete evidence towards the existence of any species aside from statements about Humanity and the Kilrathi. Since he doesn't really make a direct annoucement as to the existence of a third species, he probably isn't aware of them.

3.) The ICIS manual makes no mention of any previous encounter or evidence of the species before the WC timeframe. It's easy to deduce that since a communication between two high ranking people (a senator and a ConFleet Commodore) has no information of prior examples, prior examples probably do not exist.

 

[Quarto]

It seemed more to me like Blair's entire presence on the Assembly floor was to force a confession out of Tolwyn, to get him to admit his contributions to things so that his entire presentation of the evils committed by the Union of Border Worlds would have to be completely discounted.

Yes, well, that's what it comes down to, and that's what bothers me so much. The whole confession thing just felt like the writers had watched A Few Good Men one time too many.

 

[Death]

[A]t best, Tolwyn's open-ended statements of another enemy can at best be seen as a wink-wink, nudge-nudge of the least subtle kind.

Well, arguably it was somewhat more subtle than the whole "space Nazis" thing or "Tolwyn is obviously the bad guy, because the character is played by McDowell".

 

[LeHah]

"Tolwyn is obviously the bad guy, because the character is played by McDowell".

I was totally crestfallen when I saw that. I really enjoyed McDowell as Tolwyn in WC3 for the reason that he (McDowell) played a complete jerk - but not a bad guy. Then they had to make him a villian in the sequel simply because it was McDowell.

 

[NinjaLA]

Am I the only one who ever used to Team with Tolwyn every time I played it?

 

[McGruff]

I tried to as far as the game would let me.

 

[Dran]

It's hard to team with a guy you've had a grudge (sp) with for 10+ years... And in Clockwork Orange I would not say Alex was such a "Bad Guy" ~~~~~~...

Anyway

 

[LeHah]

And in Clockwork Orange I would not say Alex was such a "Bad Guy"

He was a "bad guy", he just happened to be the protagonist. Don't confuse the two.

 

[Tigerhawk]

It was a prophecy of their religion, nobody knew they were coming. Which is why I certainly don't believe Tolwyn knew anything about their pending attack.

I'm not sure where my copy of Fleet Action is, and it's been a while since I've read it, but wasn't there a discussion or two between the Kilrathi nobles about an enemy on the far side of their other border...some alien species gearing up their forces for attack, and that they needed to end the war with Confed soon so that they'd be ready for this next alien threat?

I'm pretty sure they were called something else and not the Nephilum...then again, the Kilrathi name for this race could certainly have been something entirely different than what we would have called them. Perhaps this was the joining of their prophecy and their military intelligence that would have eventually meant a war with the Nephilum...?

Just a theory, but it seems to hook a connection.

 

[Sarty]

The other race was the Mantu. The Kilrathi had fought them before and had been losing pretty bad before the Mantu disappeared, presumably to fight another race on the other side of their border. In Fleet Action the Kilrathi have reports that they are moving back towards Kilrathi space, so they apparently defeated whoever else they were fighting. However we really dont know anything about the Mantu. Knowing the Kilrathi, they could have attacked a relatively peaceful race and ended up getting their asses kicked by a race that otherwise would not have been a threat to them or Confed.

 

[Tigerhawk]

The other race was the Mantu. The Kilrathi had fought them before and had been losing pretty bad before the Mantu disappeared, presumably to fight another race on the other side of their border. In Fleet Action the Kilrathi have reports that they are moving back towards Kilrathi space, so they apparently defeated whoever else they were fighting. However we really dont know anything about the Mantu. Knowing the Kilrathi, they could have attacked a relatively peaceful race and ended up getting their asses kicked by a race that otherwise would not have been a threat to them or Confed.

Okay, kewl. Am I correct in memory in that Mantu space was a long ways off from the Kilrathi border?

I know nothing was said about the Mantu other than they were a threat to the Kilrathi, but it's mainly conjecture and wondering.

 

[McGruff]

I was totally crestfallen when I saw that. I really enjoyed McDowell as Tolwyn in WC3 for the reason that he (McDowell) played a complete jerk - but not a bad guy. Then they had to make him a villian in the sequel simply because it was McDowell.

Did Forstchen make him the same villain in the WC4 novelization? (last one I still need to read) The End Run Tolwyn was made out to be a humanitarian who risked the Concordia and defied orders to give the Tarawa and her crew a fighting chance to make it back, when the game Tolwyn would have been content that the mission was accomplished, and congratulated them posthumously for a job well done.

 

[LeHah]

Did Forstchen make him the same villain in the WC4 novelization?

I won't ruin the book for you. Read the damn thing.

 

[Death]

Generally speaking, the authors of WC novelizations aren't given a whole lot of leeway as to the way they want to take the book. Some variation is allowed, but for the most part they have to follow the script of the game/movie of which they're a novelization.