The Perfect Fighter?
- Thread starter Ijuin
- Start date
The problem with the Sabre is that the side armor and the shields were too thin for it to be effective as a torpedo bomber. If the side armor were 10cm instread of 5cm (which would bring it more in line with the front/rear armor of 16cm), and it had 12.0cm of shields instead of 8.0cm, it might be effective, but the default shielding is just too weak for torpedo runs.
As for the Rapier, I agree that it is great for any non-torpedo missions. Its stats are a match for the Hellcat, and it is available much earlier in the series. I just wish it had ITTS.
The Super Ferret (the version from SO1 that has two HS missiles on it) is great for what it does--if it had ITTS then I would prefer it over the Epee--it is slightly faster and more agile, and has slightly betterr shields and armor.
The Epee may be super-agile, but its shielding is so thin that three hits with any guns will be enough to tear you apart. Flying an Epee consists heavily of dodging enemy fire to ensure that you don't get hit even once. I am in favor of raising the Epee's shields from 6.0cm to 8.0cm and adding 50% to the armor thickness.
The Broadsword is heavy with tons of shields and lots of firepower with its turrets and three mass drivers. It makes up for its slowness by being a tortoise. However, I would like it if it had a bit higher turn rate, as it is nearly impossible to track enemy fighters and you must depend on your turret gunners too much.
The Crossbow is a great upgrade from the Broadsword without being too overkill. It sacrifices the side turrets, but the twin neutron guns up front make up for it and can kill a Drakhi in two shots when combined with the mass drivers, plus it has moderately upgraded speed and turning rate.
The Morningstar is the first of the Super Fighters (later on we get the Excalibur, Dragon, Vampire, etc.). The Mace is sort of an odd weapon with its huge blast radius that damages everything nearby whether friend or foe. I am in favor of replacing that thing with a pair of FF missiles myself. The three particle cannons make it strong without being over-armed, but its armor is surprisingly high for a fighter. All in all, the Morningstar definitely seems like the type of ship that Maniac would design.
WC3 Ships:
The Arrow is pretty much fine as it is--a light, fast fighter great for taking on anything other than a capship (but watch out for those Paktahns!). The only thing I would change is to give it more missile decoys--I always seem to run out of those.
The Hellcat is pretty good too, but to me the loss of firepower over the Thunderbolt is too much of a price for the slight increase in speed and agility (a mere 40kps cruising speed and 10dps turning rate in exchange for losing 20% of the shielding and nearly 40% of the firepower). To balance this I would increase the Hellcat's cruising speed from 420kps to 440kps and its turn rate from 60/60/60dps to 70/70/70dps.
The Thunderbolt packs a mean punch while still having bearable speed and turning rates, plus its single torpedo is great for any mission where you're going to need just one--if you are going up against just one capship you're better off with a Thunderbolt than a Longbow in my opinion.
The Longbow is a good heavy bomber, its sixteen missiles making up for its lack of agility. No real problems here.
The Excalibur is overpowered not so much because of its quad tachyon guns and twin Reaper cannons, but because the guns are autotracking, which means that you don't even have to worry about aiming. I would take away the autotracking ability and balance this out by adding 50% to the armor thickness.
WC4 Ships
The Banshee is light and agile, but the four lasers take so long to make a dent in a target that the other enemy fighters have time to get behind you and blast away your rear armor. I would either increase the number of lasers to six, or replace them with Ion guns so that it would have firepower to match the Arrow.
The Vindicator has some power with its Tachyon guns and stormfire cannon, but the gun capacitor isn't big enough to get more than a couple shots with full guns active. With a bigger gun capacitor, the Vindicator would be a match for the Thunderbolt any day of the week.
The Avenger is good as a bomber, being a bit faster and more agile than the Longbow, but its eight missiles can't compare to the Longbow's sixteen. I would like to increase the Avenger's missile load to twelve. While we're at it, give the Vindicator eight missiles and two torps instead of six missiles and three torps--the missiles would probably be more useful and there are few missions that use exactly three torps--either you have the third left over, or you are despeately wishing you carried a fourth.
The Bearcat has lots of speed, lots of agility, and those quad Tachyon guns pack a good punch. The main drawback I see is that the guns are so widely spaced that they don't seem to hit anything--the bolts from them just pass on either side of the target.
The Dragon is overpowered as anything. I would take away the autotracking ability of its guns and enlarge the size of the gun capacitor so that you can fire longer.
WCP Ships
The Pirhana is lightly armed but heavily armored. The Stormfire Mk. II cannon kicks ass, but runs out of rounds in a hurry if you use it, and the single laser and twin ion guns hardly damage a Manta at all. I would give it a second Laser cannon.
The Tigershark is fine as it is with good shielding and kickass charging mass drivers--one shot can destroy a Moray. All it needs is a little more speed to keep up with the Morays.
The Panther is a well-balanced fighter with guns that are powerful but not overdone, and a decent missile load. I would like to give it some Dragonfly rocket pods (or Mosquito pods if it's Secret Ops).
The Shrike has good guns too with the Charging Mass Drivers that I love, and plenty of torps. However, it has only four IR misiles and NO HS or FF missiles! It definitely needs more anti-fighter missiles--give it four HS or FF missiles to go with the IR missiles.
The Vampire has kickass guns with its four tachyons and twin particles (although I would love if it had four tachyons and four Chargin Mass Drivers instead). Three shots will obliterate a Moray, plus it has a shitload of missiles. Fortunately, it does not have autotracking guns, so this keeps it from becoming overkill.
The Devastator is like flying your own mini-capship. It is slow to move and slow to turn, and it has FIVE turrets to keep the lighter fighters off your back. All this would be bearable, however, if it had a decent amount of afterburner fuel. Whose idea was it to give the Devestator only 1/3 the afterburner charge of the Shrike anyway? If you use your burners to close with a capship to strike, there's hardly anything left to retreat afterwards.
As for the Rapier, I agree that it is great for any non-torpedo missions. Its stats are a match for the Hellcat, and it is available much earlier in the series. I just wish it had ITTS.
The Super Ferret (the version from SO1 that has two HS missiles on it) is great for what it does--if it had ITTS then I would prefer it over the Epee--it is slightly faster and more agile, and has slightly betterr shields and armor.
The Epee may be super-agile, but its shielding is so thin that three hits with any guns will be enough to tear you apart. Flying an Epee consists heavily of dodging enemy fire to ensure that you don't get hit even once. I am in favor of raising the Epee's shields from 6.0cm to 8.0cm and adding 50% to the armor thickness.
The Broadsword is heavy with tons of shields and lots of firepower with its turrets and three mass drivers. It makes up for its slowness by being a tortoise. However, I would like it if it had a bit higher turn rate, as it is nearly impossible to track enemy fighters and you must depend on your turret gunners too much.
The Crossbow is a great upgrade from the Broadsword without being too overkill. It sacrifices the side turrets, but the twin neutron guns up front make up for it and can kill a Drakhi in two shots when combined with the mass drivers, plus it has moderately upgraded speed and turning rate.
The Morningstar is the first of the Super Fighters (later on we get the Excalibur, Dragon, Vampire, etc.). The Mace is sort of an odd weapon with its huge blast radius that damages everything nearby whether friend or foe. I am in favor of replacing that thing with a pair of FF missiles myself. The three particle cannons make it strong without being over-armed, but its armor is surprisingly high for a fighter. All in all, the Morningstar definitely seems like the type of ship that Maniac would design.
WC3 Ships:
The Arrow is pretty much fine as it is--a light, fast fighter great for taking on anything other than a capship (but watch out for those Paktahns!). The only thing I would change is to give it more missile decoys--I always seem to run out of those.
The Hellcat is pretty good too, but to me the loss of firepower over the Thunderbolt is too much of a price for the slight increase in speed and agility (a mere 40kps cruising speed and 10dps turning rate in exchange for losing 20% of the shielding and nearly 40% of the firepower). To balance this I would increase the Hellcat's cruising speed from 420kps to 440kps and its turn rate from 60/60/60dps to 70/70/70dps.
The Thunderbolt packs a mean punch while still having bearable speed and turning rates, plus its single torpedo is great for any mission where you're going to need just one--if you are going up against just one capship you're better off with a Thunderbolt than a Longbow in my opinion.
The Longbow is a good heavy bomber, its sixteen missiles making up for its lack of agility. No real problems here.
The Excalibur is overpowered not so much because of its quad tachyon guns and twin Reaper cannons, but because the guns are autotracking, which means that you don't even have to worry about aiming. I would take away the autotracking ability and balance this out by adding 50% to the armor thickness.
WC4 Ships
The Banshee is light and agile, but the four lasers take so long to make a dent in a target that the other enemy fighters have time to get behind you and blast away your rear armor. I would either increase the number of lasers to six, or replace them with Ion guns so that it would have firepower to match the Arrow.
The Vindicator has some power with its Tachyon guns and stormfire cannon, but the gun capacitor isn't big enough to get more than a couple shots with full guns active. With a bigger gun capacitor, the Vindicator would be a match for the Thunderbolt any day of the week.
The Avenger is good as a bomber, being a bit faster and more agile than the Longbow, but its eight missiles can't compare to the Longbow's sixteen. I would like to increase the Avenger's missile load to twelve. While we're at it, give the Vindicator eight missiles and two torps instead of six missiles and three torps--the missiles would probably be more useful and there are few missions that use exactly three torps--either you have the third left over, or you are despeately wishing you carried a fourth.
The Bearcat has lots of speed, lots of agility, and those quad Tachyon guns pack a good punch. The main drawback I see is that the guns are so widely spaced that they don't seem to hit anything--the bolts from them just pass on either side of the target.
The Dragon is overpowered as anything. I would take away the autotracking ability of its guns and enlarge the size of the gun capacitor so that you can fire longer.
WCP Ships
The Pirhana is lightly armed but heavily armored. The Stormfire Mk. II cannon kicks ass, but runs out of rounds in a hurry if you use it, and the single laser and twin ion guns hardly damage a Manta at all. I would give it a second Laser cannon.
The Tigershark is fine as it is with good shielding and kickass charging mass drivers--one shot can destroy a Moray. All it needs is a little more speed to keep up with the Morays.
The Panther is a well-balanced fighter with guns that are powerful but not overdone, and a decent missile load. I would like to give it some Dragonfly rocket pods (or Mosquito pods if it's Secret Ops).
The Shrike has good guns too with the Charging Mass Drivers that I love, and plenty of torps. However, it has only four IR misiles and NO HS or FF missiles! It definitely needs more anti-fighter missiles--give it four HS or FF missiles to go with the IR missiles.
The Vampire has kickass guns with its four tachyons and twin particles (although I would love if it had four tachyons and four Chargin Mass Drivers instead). Three shots will obliterate a Moray, plus it has a shitload of missiles. Fortunately, it does not have autotracking guns, so this keeps it from becoming overkill.
The Devastator is like flying your own mini-capship. It is slow to move and slow to turn, and it has FIVE turrets to keep the lighter fighters off your back. All this would be bearable, however, if it had a decent amount of afterburner fuel. Whose idea was it to give the Devestator only 1/3 the afterburner charge of the Shrike anyway? If you use your burners to close with a capship to strike, there's hardly anything left to retreat afterwards.
Er, you do realise that all you need to do to give the Banshee ion guns is to hit "H" on the keyboard, right?
Personally, I would just ditch the lasers altogether and link the scatter cannon into the ITTS system. That gun could do some serious damage, but the lack of ITTS meant that you had to get real close to be accurate with it, and that meant risking a fatal collision.I wouldn't go that far.
The Vindicator is definitely a better multi-role fighter than the Thunderbolt, but I think the Thunderbolt's brute firepower would carry the day in a head to head battle between the two. I would probably dump the lasers (they drain power without doing too much damage) and integrate the stormfires into the main weapon system. Being able to cut loose with two stormfires and two tachyons together hugely boost the Vindicator's firepower, especially coupled with your idea of replacing one of the torps with a couple of extra missiles.Best, Raptor
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Ijuin: Err, do you realize that for almost every fighter you suggest to increase sth without giving an aedequate reduction in another area and that seriously unbalances the ships (even more than they mostlyy are). Bu I agree with giving the Vindicator 8 missiles and 2 torps. I never really needed more thsn two torps in WC4. In fact, I rarely used torps in WC4 at all.
I like the Vindicator more than the TBolt (which is my favorite fighter in WC3) and giving the changes mentioned above it surely would rock even more!
Bu I agree with giving the Vindicator 8 missiles and 2 torps. I never really needed more thsn two torps in WC4. In fact, I rarely used torps in WC4 at all.I like the Vindicator more than the TBolt (which is my favorite fighter in WC3) and giving the changes mentioned above it surely would rock even more!
I quite liked the Vindicator in WC4, but I found its firepower a little to weak to overtake the Thunderbolt. I still flew the Vin far more than either the Banshee or the Avenger, though. One configration I quite liked was having maces on the torpedo hardpoints. With a litle care, you could down a fighter with one, or damage a whole flight.
As for torpedoes, you're right, a few passes with the leech guns would knock out any capital ship in WC4.
Best, Raptor
As for torpedoes, you're right, a few passes with the leech guns would knock out any capital ship in WC4.
Best, Raptor
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Raptor: True, the Vind's normal gun firepower is significantly weaker than that of the TBolt but her special guns and heavier protection more than make up for that IMHO. Though her turret isn't really a match for the TBolt's. 
And I agree with Panther, I used most often the Stormfire against cap ships in WC4, though the Leech guns work very well too.
And I agree with Panther, I used most often the Stormfire against cap ships in WC4, though the Leech guns work very well too.
Gravimetric
Spaceman
Is there such thing as an "Overpowered Fighter"?
I would think the more firepower you had the better off you would be in a fight. Take the Excalibur..thats one hell of a bird. She's got the speed and maneuverability of a Light fighter with the forward firepower of a Heavy in her day.
Why would you give up a major offensive advantage like AutoTracking? Does the AutoTrack Unit weigh that much that if you were gonna jack the armor up it would slow the bird down that much?
IIRC the auto-tracking system costs a lot of money, which is possibly why its not used in WCP.
As for the Vindicator's rear turret, I reckon a BW engineer had just finished putting together the Vindicator and then noticed he had a spare laser gun. Since he'd already stuck 3 torpedoes into it, he probably figured 1 more laser wouldn't hurt.
As for the Vindicator's rear turret, I reckon a BW engineer had just finished putting together the Vindicator and then noticed he had a spare laser gun. Since he'd already stuck 3 torpedoes into it, he probably figured 1 more laser wouldn't hurt.
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
IIRC, both have a shield strength of 250, the Tbolt has armour of 120/100 and the Vindicator 150/150. I currently don't have access to manuals etc.. but at least the ship's database confirm my claims. (though the Vin seems to have a weaker core strength).
mpanty: Pfff...
That's freakin' amazing
I was always under the impression that the Thud had heavier armor than the Vindie! In WC3, I could take multiple shots from Vaktoths and stay in good shape. The Vindicator could barely stand up against Excaliburs (in the jammer missions... with the armor beefed up)!
The Vindie was, IMHO, the best of the medium fighters, as it was more like a super fighter (it carried torps and tachyons)!
... still not as good as the tried-and-true Hellcat V
Mekt-Hakkikt
Mpanty's bane
Well, the Exacalibur carries considerably heavier weapons than a Vaktoth and plus in the jammer mission you don't have shields (have you?), thus your comparison seems a bit odd to me.
Oh, and: The Vindicator is so much better than the Hellcat.
I will keep saying that as long as you do about the Hellcat.
Oh, and: The Vindicator is so much better than the Hellcat.
I will keep saying that as long as you do about the Hellcat.
Raptor mentioned putting Mace missiles on the torpedo hardpoints. Is that possible? In the game, I have been unable to change the torpedos to anything else--can they be changed in the loadout screen, or do I need to use an editor program? I have downloaded the WC4 edit program that is available in the CIC files section, but I don't know how to implement the settings that I create.
Someone mentioned that I suggested adding too much to the fighters without taking anything away. Here is my revised wish list:
WC2
The Ferret and the Rapier should have ITTS for their guns. I don't know what would be good to take away from them though--maybe cut the Ferret's speed down to match the Epee and take 25% off the Rapier's shields.
The Epee is too fragile--increase its shields and armor to at least match the Ferret, and take away its two dumbfire missiles for balance.
The Sabre is a bit weakly shielded for a ship that uses torpedos. Boost the shielding from 80 to 120 and reduce its four IR missiles to two (leaving it with 2IR/2FF/2DF in the no-torpedos loadout).
The three Mass Drivers on the Broadsword don't do any good if you can't aim at anything. Change it to two Mass Drivers and give it a decent turn rate, or else give it an extra pair of FF misiles so it doesn't have to try to track Drakhis with its slow turn rate.
WC3
The WC3 ships are pretty much ok as they are although I suggested taking away the Excalibur's autotracking guns mainly because it takes the fun out of trying to draw a bead on your target--all you do is face in the general direction of your target and fire--the only reason Excalibur missions are challenging at all is because you have several fighters shooting at you at once.
The Hellcat doesn't have enough advantage over either the Arrow or the Thunderbolt to really be worth the disadvantage in my opinion--it is 100kps slower than the Arrow, has a 30/20/30dps slower turning rate, no autoslide, and two fewer missiles, and all it gets in return is 20mm more armor, 20mm more shields, and neutron plus ion guns instead of laser plus ion guns. Compared to the Thunderbolt it has only 40kps more speed and 10/10/10dps faster turning rate, but has much weaker guns, 20mm less armor, 30mm less shields, no torpedo, and no rear turret. My suggestion is to change its speed and turn rate so that it is about halfway between the Arrow and the Thunderbolt in terms of speed and agility, giving it a top speed of 440kps instead of 420kps (60kps more than the Thunderbolt and 80kps less than the Arrow) and a turn rate of 70/70/70dps instead of 60/60/60dps (making it 20/20/20dps more than the Thunderbolt and 20/10/20dps less than the Arrow).
WC4
The Leech Cannons (and the Banshee's Scattergun) would be great anti-fighter weapons if they only had ITTS! Leech Cannon is the only way to beat a Dragon without missiles if you're flying a Banshee, and I love them. Also, I would like to swap the Vindicator's 6 missiles/3 torps for 8 missiles/2 torps since you rarely use the third torp anyway--any mission that actually calls for more than two torps should have you in an Avenger anyway. Maybe an option for the Avenger/Vindicator/Dragon where you can load a missile onto a torp hardpoint?
WCP
The WCP fighters are pretty good all around, but the Devestator really needs to have a longer afterburn charge--it only has 1/3 the afterburner charge of the Shrike. The Shrike really needs more anti-fighter missiles too, so swap the four dumb fires for six HS missiles instead. As for the Pirhana, its guns are kind of weak for something so heavily armored. Give it a second laser cannon to make 2 Ion/2 Laser and reduce its armor thickness by a third to balance it out.
WC2
The Ferret and the Rapier should have ITTS for their guns. I don't know what would be good to take away from them though--maybe cut the Ferret's speed down to match the Epee and take 25% off the Rapier's shields.
The Epee is too fragile--increase its shields and armor to at least match the Ferret, and take away its two dumbfire missiles for balance.
The Sabre is a bit weakly shielded for a ship that uses torpedos. Boost the shielding from 80 to 120 and reduce its four IR missiles to two (leaving it with 2IR/2FF/2DF in the no-torpedos loadout).
The three Mass Drivers on the Broadsword don't do any good if you can't aim at anything. Change it to two Mass Drivers and give it a decent turn rate, or else give it an extra pair of FF misiles so it doesn't have to try to track Drakhis with its slow turn rate.
WC3
The WC3 ships are pretty much ok as they are although I suggested taking away the Excalibur's autotracking guns mainly because it takes the fun out of trying to draw a bead on your target--all you do is face in the general direction of your target and fire--the only reason Excalibur missions are challenging at all is because you have several fighters shooting at you at once.
The Hellcat doesn't have enough advantage over either the Arrow or the Thunderbolt to really be worth the disadvantage in my opinion--it is 100kps slower than the Arrow, has a 30/20/30dps slower turning rate, no autoslide, and two fewer missiles, and all it gets in return is 20mm more armor, 20mm more shields, and neutron plus ion guns instead of laser plus ion guns. Compared to the Thunderbolt it has only 40kps more speed and 10/10/10dps faster turning rate, but has much weaker guns, 20mm less armor, 30mm less shields, no torpedo, and no rear turret. My suggestion is to change its speed and turn rate so that it is about halfway between the Arrow and the Thunderbolt in terms of speed and agility, giving it a top speed of 440kps instead of 420kps (60kps more than the Thunderbolt and 80kps less than the Arrow) and a turn rate of 70/70/70dps instead of 60/60/60dps (making it 20/20/20dps more than the Thunderbolt and 20/10/20dps less than the Arrow).
WC4
The Leech Cannons (and the Banshee's Scattergun) would be great anti-fighter weapons if they only had ITTS! Leech Cannon is the only way to beat a Dragon without missiles if you're flying a Banshee, and I love them. Also, I would like to swap the Vindicator's 6 missiles/3 torps for 8 missiles/2 torps since you rarely use the third torp anyway--any mission that actually calls for more than two torps should have you in an Avenger anyway. Maybe an option for the Avenger/Vindicator/Dragon where you can load a missile onto a torp hardpoint?
WCP
The WCP fighters are pretty good all around, but the Devestator really needs to have a longer afterburn charge--it only has 1/3 the afterburner charge of the Shrike. The Shrike really needs more anti-fighter missiles too, so swap the four dumb fires for six HS missiles instead. As for the Pirhana, its guns are kind of weak for something so heavily armored. Give it a second laser cannon to make 2 Ion/2 Laser and reduce its armor thickness by a third to balance it out.