Star Trek, and lesser SF franchises (was "Movies to see")

Yeah, that was one thing I remember about watching the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - as a series of episodes, it kinda sucked. But it was the only season I watched together with a group of friends, and it was absolutely amazing in that aspect - the fun of talking about what might happen this episode, then watching it and talking about what did happen, and speculating about what it means for the rest of the season.

I disagree. I think the show slowly started to unwind after its first season. It started to take its self more and more seriously as seasons went on - resulting in two final seasons so terrible, it was like every bad episode of the X-Files back to back for two years.

The same goes for Angel; while Season One was awkward, it was its own thing. The seasons that followed tried very hard to have their own "film noir mythos" that failed pretty hard, especially with the main character suddenly having a son from the future or whatever the hell that was.

Its as if the show forgot that it shouldnt try to be bigger than its title suggests. A show titled "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" shouldn't attempt to have the biggest, most tragic teenage lovestory of all time.
 
Quick question:

These days I really dislike british entertainment, the only shows I watch on a weekly basis are american, canadian and japanese.

Why? Whats on British TV these days? Its been a while since I was home, so I'm not sure whats going on.

Interestingly, the best shows on here in Australia are British! Australian entertainment otherwise is quite poor!

Cheers,

Red Coat
 
Let me tell you why the new Dr. Who is great... having become hooked on it, my thirteen year old sister proceeded to borrow and start watching my original Who DVDs. That never would have happened otherwise... we really need that kind of bridge, because recent mass media Sci Fi has become so *absolutely* self-destructive.

I think its a sad shame however, I mean I genuinely would have loved to have watched the empty child as a kid cowering behind the sofa as a 6 year old kid, indeed that episode is tied for being my favourite of all time, and those episodes aren't any less popular with the kids today. I did love other episodes beyond Steven Moffats, the Idiot's Lantern, School Reunion, Fathers Day and the Unquiet dead all were fun and entertaining.
I think I really get frustrated by the show as it has so much potential, but episodes such as Love and Monsters, the Christmas Invasion, and Bad Wolf really destroy the image of it in my mind. They're not just bad, they're horrible (no worse than some episodes from the Jon Pertwee era perhaps, but I really hated those too ;))

Even the heavily criticised 80s aimed tackled racism issues whilst blowing up daleks with rocket launchers in schools, something for the whole family :)

A prime example from my POV was the family viewing of the death games in Colin Bakers era (Vegence on Varos I think it was), pre-big brother, pre-the truman show a warning about just how disturbing reality TV shows were in principle as to be interesting they almost invariably rely on the suffering of others (even if its something as simple as watching the arguments that ensue from people confined in a house).
Scoot forward to 2005 and the new series simply uproots Big Brother to the distant future and turns it into a death sport... its insulting that the writer felt he had to be that in your face to make a point.

I will have to check out season 1 of DS9 as I missed it first time round, we bought satellite before it was airing on terrestrial but once it had already hit season 3 on Sky so I missed 1 and 2.
 
Please forgive me if this question derails this conversation too much, but considering the subject matter I thought it might be fitting, since people are talking about their favorite Trek episodes.

Would anyone mind telling me if they remember the name of the Voyager episode where something happens to Tuvok's [sic?] brain due to an accident or attack, and for a while he tries to do everything he used to do and just gets frustrated. After that, he ends up finding out he is really good at making desserts, and finds a new identity based on his new abilities until they are able to reverse the damage he sustained?
 
Thanks. It's something I've wanted to show someone I am working with, but I couldn't remember the name and only vaguely remembered the episode.
 
I disagree. I think the show slowly started to unwind after its first season. It started to take its self more and more seriously as seasons went on - resulting in two final seasons so terrible, it was like every bad episode of the X-Files back to back for two years.
Hehe, great, but what exactly do you disagree with? What I said, specifically, was that season seven (I never mentioned season six at all) was pretty bad, but that I enjoyed it more than the earlier seasons specifically because I watched it week after week with a group of friends, as opposed to the earlier seasons which I'd watched on DVD. I wasn't saying that it was a good season, and I agree with your general sentiment (although, to be fair, I do think highly of the series as a whole, and I do think there were a few brilliant episodes in the last seasons - it's just that the overall quality wasn't there any more) - I was merely talking about how the manner in which you experience a show affects its perceived quality.

I mean, ultimately, doesn't TV always lose something after its first airing? I really dislike 24, for example - but above all, I think it's lame because when you watch it on DVD, the idea of every episode being an hour of real time turns out to be a fake gimmick. I can certainly see why people who watched on TV, with properly-placed commercial breaks and with just one episode a week, would have liked it more than I did.

The same goes for Angel; while Season One was awkward, it was its own thing. The seasons that followed tried very hard to have their own "film noir mythos" that failed pretty hard, especially with the main character suddenly having a son from the future or whatever the hell that was.

Its as if the show forgot that it shouldnt try to be bigger than its title suggests. A show titled "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" shouldn't attempt to have the biggest, most tragic teenage lovestory of all time.
Yeah, yeah, I get what you mean - though IMO, one of the biggest problems for both of these shows was that the fans tried to make them into something they weren't. I mean, you gotta be fair - if you listen to a Joss Whedon commentary on any of these episodes, he literally talks about how he basically wanted to make Party of Five, but with more rocket launchers. Yeah, sometimes he did things specifically to prove that something could be done in a TV show, but those were just three or four particular episodes (the silent episode, the musical episode, etc., etc.). The rest of these shows were pretty much pure entertainment, and they were simply unfortunate enough to attract a really, really academic following that started writing papers and theses on Joss Whedon as an auteur.


I think when you go into any show which has ties to real life, no matter to what absurd tangent it is taken, you enter with preconceptions. Really good sci-fi or fantasy can mirror events and have you seeing the world through another perspective without even realising.
I know what you mean - sci-fi can be great as a way of de-emotionalising an issue to present a point of view that you normally wouldn't see. But, here's the thing - these issues are temporary. I mean, in twenty years time, Star Trek's commentaries about the Vietnam War will be painfully obscure for most people.

(Of course, the way BSG treated the Iraq occupation won't be obscure in twenty years time because it's a newer issue - but oh, boy, will it be embarrassing for its producers. Seriously, people who made this show will look at their work in twenty years and they simply won't be able to come up with a satisfactory answer as to why they were so petty and stupid - sure, they put in a lot of important issues, but the way they got them across has been horribly mean-spirited)

And that's the way it is with most of the stuff sci-fi explores - it's temporary. If you make an episode that refers to a particular event, you can get a very important point across, and it's an extremely valuable thing - but it's no more valuable than if you make an episode that simply talks about relationships between a group of people. Stuff about relationships will seem fairly trivial, but it's also ageless, and equally relevant at any point in history - that's why people still go to the theatre to watch Romeo and Juliet, while hardly anyone (except for a still fairly big group of English literature students, admittedly) remembers what Gulliver's Travels was all about.

But let me be clear, I don't think Buffy contributes to anything, this is probably partially because I find the majority of the characters to be abnoxious and self involved, particularly Buffy and her sister; heck spike seemed to be the most human of all the characters when I watched it. Personallity changes were frequent and each transition was jarringly immediate.
While I disagree about the personality changes (that's the thing that got me into these shows in the first place - the fact that not only people changed over time, but that they did so in an understandable way), the rest is pretty accurate. And you know, you have to be fair - a show for teenagers, about teenagers, will have to involve a lot of obnoxious and self-involved characters :). IMO, that's the value of these shows - if a teenager watching Buffy gradually realises (like Buffy herself) that his behaviour actually has an effect on other people and that it pays to not be so self-involved all the time... then he's got more out of it than he ever would out of BSG or Star Trek. I mean, even Star Trek at its finest, clearest (you know, like The Wrath of Khan with its noble quotes about "the needs of the many") will just plain have no impact on people, precisely because it's so distant and abstract.
 
Let it be said that anyone who mistakens Joss Whedon material for anything close to academic will also be the first to volunteer for my shoving a javelin through their skull.
 
My brother took a class in Buffy at his prestigious liberal arts university.

I believe he submitted a Buffy paper to a Buffy journal.

I wish I was making that up.
 
My master's thesis supervisor presented a Buffy paper at a Buffy conference.

(but, lest anyone asks, my master's thesis was not about Buffy)
 
I recall hearing that after dating Kristy Swanson, Charlie Sheen said about her something like "If ever a thought went through that head of hers, it would perish from loneliness". Just thought that was funny.
 
Yeah… I remember when it originally aired – those months between BoBW1 and 2 were the longest summer I can remember.



I’ll agree with this. The “they brought in a sexy new character!” idea tends to scare people off… but she did end up being one of the most fleshed out Voyager characters (with the Doctor).

The big problem people have with Voyager is that it didn’t go through with its setup at all… which, I’ll argue, is because of Deep Space Nine. DS9 was established to be a ‘story-of-the-week’ show… people come and visit the space station, they leave, you move on. Voyager’s pilot was all about continuity – you follow the crew as they become more and more desperate to survive on the way home.

By the time Voyager was made, though, DS9 had taken up the suddenly-popular continuity idea… which meant Voyager pretty much couldn’t, to maintain a narrative respectability to the franchise. Star Trek has always been very good about *not* simply doing whatever is popular at the moment…


It was an even longer summer for me. I was in the middle of boot camp when the new season aired and part two came around. My best friend and I, who'd gone in on the "buddy system" together, were spooling off theories a couple of times a week about what might have happened. We couldn't see it until the middle of November.

I didn't know what to think about DS9 for a while. While some of the shows were pretty innovative and imaginative, others just plain seemed to go nowhere and didn't seem to have focus. Then again, I was in my late teens to early 20's, so that might warrant a rewatch of some of them. I also missed a few seasons of Voyager which I still need to grab the DVD seasons...it's great to have a best friend who has multiple seasons of multiple shows. :D In any event, I liked Voyager. I just have to see the rest of it. Plus it spawned a great couple of games in the Elite Force title.

I didn't latch much onto Enterprise, mainly due to that it seemed that some of the shows were predictable. It didn't help that, from what I was told, that they were introducing the Ferengi but didn't "say what race they were", throwing the Borg into the mix in plain view of everyone which then blows the timeline out the window...didn't they have records on these things so that, when the 1701-D ran into them in System J-25, they could say, "Hey, we've seen these cats before!" (I know we're talking about roughly 15 years between scripts on this, but it's an irking when they mess with the timeline like that, much less on any show). Then again, I also never gave it much of a chance because I work(ed) two jobs and never did catch much of it.

Ah well. In any event, I eventually need to sit down and watch a lot of them over again and possibly revise my stances. I'm currently reliving TAS and while it's certainly cheesy '70s stuff, I'm still finding it neat. It is rather disappointing that, save for the original actor's voice for Cyrano Jones, none of the other voices for recurring characters (say, William Campbell for Captain Koloth and such) were done in TAS...the main set of character voices had to make up for them.

One thing that I've enjoyed greatly about the Trek set of series' was the fact that they'd flesh out a lot of different ideas around various cultures, (with the obvious Klingon culture being the most developed), and I did think it was a great testament to the writers taking their time developing Seven and not reintegrating her with her humanity and her native culture over just a few episodes.
 
It's a shame american shows are always 24 episodes, BSG season 1 was indeed fantastic due to the absence of any filler. Equal amounts happened in season 2 and 3 spread over twice as many episodes.

I think BSG suffers from over praise, like so many shows its largely predictable, but the character, the uniqueness, the variety in all elements make it highly compelling. Sadly the extended seasons do dillute that strength.

I like the cylons talk about God, they are coming into their own as a species, and the first thing humans did was attempt to explain their existance, condone their actions, and elevate their status, by inventing the concept of supernatural deities. Just as our history is littered with mistakes, barbaric acts and quick forgiveness of ourselves as we were only young as a species so are the cylons. I see them as an accelerated human race; as I already stated I enjoy sci-fi which puts the human condition into abstract terms in order to analyse it, and even if the cylons have limited plausability they do allow exaclty that in a very original manner.

I do have to say that Season 3 of BSG seemed rather lost in a lot of places and it did seem like the writers were suddenly searching for an answer to, "What can we do to fill up time this week?"...at least starting a few episodes after the escape from New Caprica. The first two seasons didn't seem to ever do that, even with the second season with the "filler" which never, at least to me, ever felt like filler. Character development is one thing, but just kind of going through the motions is another. There's a marked difference in those things. Above all, I REALLY wish they'd stop making sudden character advancements/developments without telling us about them beforehand. i.e., at the end of Season 3, Anders suddenly looks to be a Colonial officer. When the hell did that happen? Things like that. At least tell us about things like that before just throwing it out there.

This whole thing of "Who are the final Five?" is hokey at best...we've already done this story in the form of Boomer, and the final episode in this regard made the least sense of all. I'm supposed to believe that Tigh is a Cylon? Get the frack outta here. I'm not buying any of them for various reasons, save *maybe* Tori.

I do like your analogy of how the Cylons are getting to be a young humanity. There have been some quotes in earlier seasons regarding how they're "Humanity's children" and "We learned from our parents" and such. The Cylons see themselves as superior to humanity, but they do rather tend to dismiss their own flaws while pulling a Neo act in their ability to dodge their own conflicting natures. They don't see themselves at all as human and see themselves as above the "sins of man", but they're acting more human all the time.
 
I wish I was making that up.

I wish we didn't have this rampant fandom narcicism in the form of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Philosophy, Star Wars on Trial or Boarding the Enterprise: Transporters, Tribbles and the Vulcan Death Grip in Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek.

People taking light fare seriously is as dangerous as it gets when it comes to entertainment.
 
Well, I agree that it seems ridiculous at times. Still, I find it hard to resent such stuff. I mean, is it any better when academics write papers about Shakespeare plays? They were originally intended as light entertainment too, it's only their age that adds so much weight to their status.

What bothers me more than the subject of such papers is the angle they so often take. A paper about what Buffy has to say about the role of women in society, or what Star Trek has to say about the role of technology is neat stuff - because it makes sense to analyse these shows from that angle. It's only the weird academic subculture stuff (the kind that's written in their special language, using complex terminology to confuse the reader into thinking they've got something important to say) that bothers me - and that stuff would bother me just as much if it was written about some "serious" work of literature. And, of course, there's also the way they get so excessive about some things - a Buffy paper I can understand... but a Buffy journal? I'm sure there's whole journals out there devoted to Shakespeare in general... but I'm quite certain there aren't any devoted specifically to Hamlet.
 
A paper about what Buffy has to say about the role of women in society, or what Star Trek has to say about the role of technology is neat stuff

Star Trek science has made things. Tricorders are real now, as are hyposprays - though neither are as advanced as the show's versions.

Buffy? It didn't do any of that. Not to mention, that book I mentioned has a chapter telling us how the magic on the show isn't what Wicca is about! (As if we didn't know or should care)
 
Your point is... pointless. I can't think of a single Shakespeare play that "did" anything either - but nobody questions their worth. And of course, the fact that various academics write long-winded papers about how Shakespeare must have plagiarised The Merchant of Venice because he'd never been to Venice and couldn't write about it... well, they're equally stupid as the Wicca thing you mention, but nobody uses such arguments as an example why Shakespeare shouldn't be studied at all.

(also, Star Trek science has made things? No, it merely used generic science fiction ideas, some of which turned out to be feasible. Besides, technology is about as central to Star Trek as it is to Star Wars - ultimately, the show was always about people)
 
Some episodes of star trek did flat-out suck balls, but You also had a lot of goo- to-great episodes. Fuck, I really want to see Enterprise seasons3-4, beacause thats when it supposily got good. And can we at least agree with BattleSatr Galactica is decent show without the fillers?(Seriosly, I liked season one most. Yeah, I know they often had*who will Gaius Baltar bang this week?!*, but season one didnt have that many fillers which dragged the show down.)(IMO, of course, and star trek at its best always beat the crap out of either BSG.)

Sci-fi channel is showing Enterprise every Monday from 7pm-11pm
Thye just entered the Expanse so I think that's still season 2, or it might be early season 3. I can't remember for sure
 
I can't think of a single Shakespeare play that "did" anything either - but nobody questions their worth.

Shakespeare stood the test of time. I sincerely doubt we'll be seeing Buffy 300 years from now.

And of course, the fact that various academics write long-winded papers about how Shakespeare must have plagiarised The Merchant of Venice because he'd never been to Venice and couldn't write about it... well, they're equally stupid as the Wicca thing you mention, but nobody uses such arguments as an example why Shakespeare shouldn't be studied at all.

There is a difference. Plagiarism by the world's most famous playwright is important - telling me that there is a difference between an actual religion and... CGI effects is not. I mean - no one wrote a discertation that The Ten Commandments got the parting of the Red Sea wrong. :)

Its just a sign of the times.
 
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