Star Trek, and lesser SF franchises (was "Movies to see")

[Tyrant]

Dunno, I would kinda like to see a new star trek movie, but thats not happening soon...

[ST discussion broken off from this thread. - Death]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I believe they've actually announced Christmas 2008 as the date for the next Star Trek movie.

 

[Tyrant]

Hey Loaf, do you get the impression that Rick Berman and Brandon Braga killed off trek? Because thats what I keep hearing.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Nope, absolutely not -- that's more of that internet cynicism I was talking about in the other thread.

For whatever awful reason, you can't be a Star Trek fan today without hating some element of Star Trek... but the fact of the matter is, Rick Berman took over TNG very early on and was responsible for pretty much everything we like about Star Trek today.

 

[Red Coat]

Nope, absolutely not -- that's more of that internet cynicism I was talking about in the other thread.

For whatever awful reason, you can't be a Star Trek fan today without hating some element of Star Trek... but the fact of the matter is, Rick Berman took over TNG very early on and was responsible for pretty much everything we like about Star Trek today.

Well then, quick question, favourite series of the lot?

Cheers,

Red Coat

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Good question, and I'll have to dodge it

I don't think it's possible to say -- for instance, Deep Space Nine does a lot of great things (from the high concept sci fi stuff early on to the war stuff later on)... but it couldn't exist dramatically without TNG (and even Voyager) to balance against. A gritty shades-of-gray setting is only really spectacular when you've spent so many years setting up your blached-white utopia.

I'll say that my personal favorite stories (at this time, anyway) are character ones -- TNG's Family, TNG's Inner Light, DS9's The Visitor and so forth.

But there's so much merit in everything Star Trek does in so many directions... from TOS' A Private Little War being, bar none, my favorite commentary on the Vietnam War... to Voyager's Faces having one of the few truly scary television moments... to Enterprise's First Flight being a completely engrossing themed story in exactly the way television shows don't do episodes anymore.

 

[Red Coat]

For me, definately DS9. I think they should have done more on the Dominion War, give DS9s characters a bit more involvement. But at the same time, they were on a space-station, and they aren't something that can blitz off to the nearest Fleet Engagement and throw their weight in.

But what did it for me were the characters of DS9, they were all good, except Ezri Dax, she was...okay...but oh well, too bad the actress that played Jadzia didn't stay on.

Cheers,

Red Coat

 

[McGruff]

For whatever awful reason, you can't be a Star Trek fan today without hating some element of Star Trek...

Funny, I've noticed that with probably every self professed Trek fan I've chatted with. Personally, I 'm pretty sure I hate Voyager, not because it's trendy to, but because it was mostly full of lousy shows with a couple good ones thrown in, as opposed to say TNG or DS9 which were mostly good with a few bad episodes and a couple great ones.

I'll say that my personal favorite stories (at this time, anyway) are character ones -- TNG's Family, TNG's Inner Light, DS9's The Visitor and so forth.

Which ones are those? I'd recognize them from a description, but not the episode names.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Funny, I've noticed that with probably every self professed Trek fan I've chatted with. Personally, I 'm pretty sure I hate Voyager, not because it's trendy to, but because it was mostly full of lousy shows with a couple good ones thrown in, as opposed to say TNG or DS9 which were mostly good with a few bad episodes and a couple great ones.

Yeah... it makes no sense to me -- it's the internet run amuck. Somehow people decided that their minor complaints with the show were major, and that they were all the fault of one or two particular people. I really think it helped get Enterprise cancelled... looking at the incredibly biased internet, executives couldn't help but thin Star Trek had lost the *one* thing it had going for it as a viable franchise (devoted fans who fall into a particularly good avertising bracket).

I didn't like Voyager as much as any of the other shows... but I've enjoyed going back to it in recent years. It's basically TNG Lite... it's never a great show, but it's also never a terrible one. They're never deep, but they're never downbeat, either... I can put in a Voyager DVD and watch it like candy.

(Also, as I referred to earlier I think Voyager being a bright show without consequences *allows* DS9 to be so good... DS9 in a vacuum wouldn't be nearly as impressive.)

Which ones are those? I'd recognize them from a description, but not the episode names.

Inner Light is where an alien probe has Picard experience an entire lifetime in an hour of his time to preserve their culture. Family is the one where Picard goes back to France right after being rescued from the Borg. The Visitor is about an elderly Jake telling the story of how his father died.

But what did it for me were the characters of DS9, they were all good, except Ezri Dax, she was...okay...but oh well, too bad the actress that played Jadzia didn't stay on.

My biggest problem with Ezri was that she was the easy choice -- another pretty girl to replace Jadzia. It would have been a much more interesting wrench to give the worm to a guy...

 

[McGruff]

Inner Light is where an alien probe has Picard experience an entire lifetime in an hour of his time to preserve their culture....

That was probably the best of the whole series. I liked how they had him mention the experience in some later episode when he does a piano/alien flute duet with someone. Voyager couldn't be half that good on its best day.

My biggest problem with Ezri was that she was the easy choice -- another pretty girl to replace Jadzia. It would have been a much more interesting wrench to give the worm to a guy...

Only they needed a character who would stick around for the rest of the series. If it was a guy, Worf would have disemboweled him the first time he tried to give him a little peck on the cheek.

 

[Tyrant]

Best of both worlds, and Family was one of the best trek episodes of all time. Too bad BObW ends with kinda reset button.
Also, McGruff, My Brother(whos a die-hard trekkie, while i'm a wingnut and a warsie>_>) Thought that Voyager got better when seven of nine hit the scene.
EDIT: LOAF, one of the best Voyager episodes was when Voyager meets its dupicate, Harry dies, then comes back, and Voyager gets all sorts of jacked up. And its not year of hell(A decent two-parter, although B&B wanted it to be a whole season IIRC)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Best of both worlds, and Family was one of the best trek episodes of all time. Too bad BObW ends with kinda reset button.

Yeah… I remember when it originally aired – those months between BoBW1 and 2 were the longest summer I can remember.

Also, McGruff, My Brother(whos a die-hard trekkie, while i'm a wingnut and a warsie>_>) Thought that Voyager got better when seven of nine hit the scene.

I’ll agree with this. The “they brought in a sexy new character!” idea tends to scare people off… but she did end up being one of the most fleshed out Voyager characters (with the Doctor).

The big problem people have with Voyager is that it didn’t go through with its setup at all… which, I’ll argue, is because of Deep Space Nine. DS9 was established to be a ‘story-of-the-week’ show… people come and visit the space station, they leave, you move on. Voyager’s pilot was all about continuity – you follow the crew as they become more and more desperate to survive on the way home.

By the time Voyager was made, though, DS9 had taken up the suddenly-popular continuity idea… which meant Voyager pretty much couldn’t, to maintain a narrative respectability to the franchise. Star Trek has always been very good about *not* simply doing whatever is popular at the moment…

 

[Pedro]

I didn't like Voyager as much as any of the other shows... but I've enjoyed going back to it in recent years. It's basically TNG Lite... it's never a great show, but it's also never a terrible one. They're never deep, but they're never downbeat, either... I can put in a Voyager DVD and watch it like candy.

I would say that Voyager had the odd dark moment, and due to the high ethical standards upheld throughout the majority of the show these episodes where we saw darker natures worked incredibly well.
Notable episodes for me were Equinox, Tuvix, Year of Hell, The Killing Game, Critical Care, Latent Image, Remember.

Whever Voyager dealt with anything dark it did so very well in a manner which made the episode stand out. I'm also a fan of using science fiction to abstractly understand the human condition, many episodes with Seven and the Doctor accomplished this very well. I always saw the characters in Voyager as having sides to themselves which they hid away from the others, whereas you could pretty much peg a character from one of the other shows in 5 minutes (of course Neelix and Kes were just poor characters falling outside this rule, but I feel Kim was a necessary counterbalance).
In any case I related more to the crew of Voyager who always seemed to be trying to be more than they were. I know DS9 is often praised for its characters but I felt that their inner conflicts were brought into the open too greatly and therefore didn't seem real; it almost seemed as though they wanted to air their problems publically.

Personally for me these days Trek is defined by the very best episodes, hence voyager is my favourite show despite possibly having the least consistant quality. Voyager didn't have an ark, and its general quality suffered because of it, but its mini-arcs, particularly the Vidiians and the Hirogen worked well, and hidden amoungst all the average episodes there were many diamonds in the rough.

I grew up with TNG, and for a long time I therefore regarded it as my favourite, but in restrospect there are few examples of episodes I can point to and say "this is what defined the show for me", and now that it has finished airing I feel that fact hurts it.

 

[Tyrant]

Some episodes of star trek did flat-out suck balls, but You also had a lot of goo- to-great episodes. Fuck, I really want to see Enterprise seasons3-4, beacause thats when it supposily got good. And can we at least agree with BattleSatr Galactica is decent show without the fillers?(Seriosly, I liked season one most. Yeah, I know they often had*who will Gaius Baltar bang this week?!*, but season one didnt have that many fillers which dragged the show down.)(IMO, of course, and star trek at its best always beat the crap out of either BSG.)

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I would say that as I get more and more perspective on it, I like the first two seasons of Enterprise more... and the fourth less. Season one and two had their own unique style to them, they refused to be exactly what the fans wanted... and they had a nice sense of awe to them that was new for Star Trek.

Season 4 is fan service, through and through. It's a heck of a lot of fun when you're watching it... but put into any kind of context, you feel sort of bad about it. So much of it is 'lets reference this classic Star Trek thing!' and 'lets explain this continuity error!', and it just falls flat for me a few years after the fact.

(Three is very *Interesting*, because I think we may end up remembering it as the most reasoned allegory to follow September 11th... but I wouldn't say it's inherently better than the season one/two standalone episodes)

I'm not a huge fan of BSG, beyond having fun with it in small doses -- whenever it tries to have depth, your brain just kind of screeches to a halt. I haven't watched much in quite a while because hearing Cylons talk about God just seemed so obnoxious.

(Also, I hated, hated, hated the pilot miniseries... there were some good Season One episodes after it, though.)

 

[Pedro]

It's a shame american shows are always 24 episodes, BSG season 1 was indeed fantastic due to the absence of any filler. Equal amounts happened in season 2 and 3 spread over twice as many episodes.

I think BSG suffers from over praise, like so many shows its largely predictable, but the character, the uniqueness, the variety in all elements make it highly compelling. Sadly the extended seasons do dillute that strength.

I like the cylons talk about God, they are coming into their own as a species, and the first thing humans did was attempt to explain their existance, condone their actions, and elevate their status, by inventing the concept of supernatural deities. Just as our history is littered with mistakes, barbaric acts and quick forgiveness of ourselves as we were only young as a species so are the cylons. I see them as an accelerated human race; as I already stated I enjoy sci-fi which puts the human condition into abstract terms in order to analyse it, and even if the cylons have limited plausability they do allow exaclty that in a very original manner.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Count me as someone who *likes* 'filler'.

I really, really enjoy having something new to watch on TV. I can't think of a single Star Trek episode that I ever regretted watching. Just because the Enterprise crew isn't offering up groundbreaking social commentary or fun expensive action each week doesn't make the show worthless.

There's an experience to these sci fi shows -- getting together with your geeky friends and watching them and talking about them regularly. It's like comic books or movie theaters... you can sit back and wait for graphic novel collections or DVD releases -- but you're trading part of the experience that makes it fun.

(Heck, the expectation alone is important, and the longer season builds on that... is this going to be a great episode? Will it be important to the future story, or just a one off story? Etc.)

(I don't really even agree that it's a creative or a national thing, though... Voyager had a short first season, and it wasn't anywhere near as good as most full seasons of TNG. British shows are certainly happy to capitalize on success, too... how many Dr. Who spinoffs are in the works now?)

 

[Quarto]

There's an experience to these sci fi shows -- getting together with your geeky friends and watching them and talking about them regularly. It's like comic books or movie theaters... you can sit back and wait for graphic novel collections or DVD releases -- but you're trading part of the experience that makes it fun.

Yeah, that was one thing I remember about watching the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer - as a series of episodes, it kinda sucked. But it was the only season I watched together with a group of friends, and it was absolutely amazing in that aspect - the fun of talking about what might happen this episode, then watching it and talking about what did happen, and speculating about what it means for the rest of the season.

Whever Voyager dealt with anything dark it did so very well in a manner which made the episode stand out. I'm also a fan of using science fiction to abstractly understand the human condition.

You know, one of these days you really owe me an explanation as to what the heck it means "to abstractly understand the human condition" - and why you don't think that shows like Buffy which explore everyday aspects of human lives like love and relationships don't, in your opinion, contribute to our understanding of "the human condition" as much as something like Voyager or Battlestar Galactica does .

 

[Pedro]

There's an experience to these sci fi shows -- getting together with your geeky friends and watching them and talking about them regularly. It's like comic books or movie theaters... you can sit back and wait for graphic novel collections or DVD releases -- but you're trading part of the experience that makes it fun.

Totally agree, I think DS9 did one off episodes very poorly however, and as I said Voyager was hit and miss. Enterprise was a step in the right direction for weekly entertainment, but was overshadowed by SG-1.

(I don't really even agree that it's a creative or a national thing, though... Voyager had a short first season, and it wasn't anywhere near as good as most full seasons of TNG. British shows are certainly happy to capitalize on success, too... how many Dr. Who spinoffs are in the works now?)

I only meant the length of seasons is an american thing, I have nothing against spinoffs, I'm loving Atlantis (infact I've enjoyed it more than the latter seasons of SG-1). British shows don't tend to stretch to 24 episodes, Dr Who is 13, few shows go longer than this.

But don't get me started on Who, I think we've destroyed something many of us have precious memories of, the budgets have improved, the filming, acting, but the writing is atrocious and horribly condescending. I grew up watching everything from 63-89, reading about it, about how the drama dept insisted it was kept from the childrens department as there was a tendancy to talk down to kids, and it didn't, it varied in quality but it always respected the viewers, whether they be the children or parents.
With the exception of awesome episodes such as the girl in the fireplace and the empty child the show is an insulting disaster with no understanding of what can be accomplished with science fiction. These days I really dislike british entertainment, the only shows I watch on a weekly basis are american, canadian and japanese.

You know, one of these days you really owe me an explanation as to what the heck it means "to abstractly understand the human condition" - and why you don't think that shows like Buffy which explore everyday aspects of human lives like love and relationships don't, in your opinion, contribute to our understanding of "the human condition" as much as something like Voyager or Battlestar Galactica does

I think when you go into any show which has ties to real life, no matter to what absurd tangent it is taken, you enter with preconceptions. Really good sci-fi or fantasy can mirror events and have you seeing the world through another perspective without even realising. I know its a bit pretentious, I'm certainly not suggesting every show or novel does it (or even should) but I believe these can be valuable ways of opening peoples minds without simply preaching to people. When you make something to close to reality its hard to shake off the thousands of points of view that the viewer will already heard. For example I felt that Critical Care put a human face on people who fall victim to a private health system, whereas the movie John Q was criticised by many people with certain political views.

But let me be clear, I don't think Buffy contributes to anything, this is probably partially because I find the majority of the characters to be abnoxious and self involved, particularly Buffy and her sister; heck spike seemed to be the most human of all the characters when I watched it. Personallity changes were frequent and each transition was jarringly immediate. I've never really been a fan of camp scenarios as a source of humour, the scenario wasn't serious but at the same time it showed less ability to have a sense of humour about its self that a show such as stargete. It was a stuck up show about using kickboxing moves on vampires featuring unlikeable teen characters.

I don't think BSG contributes much in this regard, but it does make you consider the odd issue such as the necessity for fair trials, treatment of prisoners, but ultimately I don't think its a good example; as I said I'm a fan of voyager as its best episodes confronted issues such as the re-writing of history, subjective ethics, the consequences of interfering with the development of others, and their perception of such interference, and the most basic of things: the value of a life and how we prioritise that of those close to us (a recurring theme).
I know many writers despise having an underlying message (Tolkein in particular would disagree strongly) but personally I love a film that leaves you thinking, Gattaca giving a compelling plausable reminder that we are not out of danger of repeating past mistakes, even eternal sunshine of a spotless mind made me consider that some of my personal memories might be a necessary learning experience, rather than the burden I'd come to treat them as.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Totally agree, I think DS9 did one off episodes very poorly however, and as I said Voyager was hit and miss. Enterprise was a step in the right direction for weekly entertainment, but was overshadowed by SG-1.

I'll agree regarding DS9 later on (mostly because they just couldn't compare to the sheer fun of the arc stuff)... but at the start they did them *very well*. If you go back and watch the first season again, it's a whole series of high concept sci fi episodes that no one ever really appreciated -- it's the closest thing to the original series' getting plots from sci fi prose writers that I can think of in recent memory.

With the exception of awesome episodes such as the girl in the fireplace and the empty child the show is an insulting disaster with no understanding of what can be accomplished with science fiction. These days I really dislike british entertainment, the only shows I watch on a weekly basis are american, canadian and japanese.

Let me tell you why the new Dr. Who is great... having become hooked on it, my thirteen year old sister proceeded to borrow and start watching my original Who DVDs. That never would have happened otherwise... we really need that kind of bridge, because recent mass media Sci Fi has become so *absolutely* self-destructive.

You don't *have* this happy, expanding community like you did in the 70s... all these cynical fandoms today are so very exclusive and not *at all* interested in appealing to younger viewers. The new Dr. Who, regardless of how it tells a story in comparison to the original (and I would argue that you can't really quantify that - no media should be about repeating itself as exactly aspossible), does what TNG did when I was a kid -- opens the door and gets new people hooked on our whole universe.

(Re: your discussion with Quarto -- I think you have some good points, but you should try to avoid saying 'the human condition' when you're trying to get them across. It's just a phrase which has become something of a joke in modern criticism... like "paradigm shift" in business.)