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Don't forget about the massive wormhole gate in Prophecy (I know its the enemy's, but how long before Confed starts building those?)

BTW: Just how canonical is Privateer 2? I think there is only one mention of (a) Confederation in a news post, and you can see a derelict Talon on one mission...but those seem to be the only things linking P2 to Wing Commander. Not even any one of the Tri-Systems can be found on the poster map that came with Prophecy. Don't tell me that they are supposed to be the "Aligned Peoples" (Although it would be very interesting if thats the direction Ser Lev Aries took the Kindred ).

P2 is canon. It takes place 100 years after prophecy in a different star system.

 

[ChrisReid]

Don't forget about the massive wormhole gate in Prophecy (I know its the enemy's, but how long before Confed starts building those?)

Again, same thing. If there's a reason for a game to be set in some place at the far end of a wormhole, then it'll happen, but it shouldn't just be assumed that it'll appear soon because it's some cool device.

BTW: Just how canonical is Privateer 2? I think there is only one mention of (a) Confederation in a news post, and you can see a derelict Talon on one mission...but those seem to be the only things linking P2 to Wing Commander. Not even any one of the Tri-Systems can be found on the poster map that came with Prophecy. Don't tell me that they are supposed to be the "Aligned Peoples" (Although it would be very interesting if thats the direction Ser Lev Aries took the Kindred ).

There are dozens and dozens of references to the Confederation in the Tri-System database. Privateer 2 is just as much a part of the Wing Commander continuity as any other game. Many sectors in other Wing Commander games are also missing from the map included with Prophecy - that map is only a slice of nearby space. The official P2 FAQ clarified that the Tri-System is in an isolated area that did not belong to the Confederation.

 

[Gamer8585]

Again, same thing. If there's a reason for a game to be set in some place at the far end of a wormhole, then it'll happen, but it shouldn't just be assumed that it'll appear soon because it's some cool device.

I just thought that Confed would have captured a lot of alien tech from: blown up starfighters and Capships, and the derbies left behind after the wormhole collapsed (maybe Decker et al. made some tech scans when they were in the cooling towers). That would help the Confed Scientists (ConSci?) make there own version of the alien tech. Look how they retrofitted that big Nephilim gun on to the Midway. Granted, the development of something so advanced as "Wormhole" tech by Confed probably requires more on the part of the writers then the intelligence or creativity of Scientists and Engineers.

There are dozens and dozens of references to the Confederation in the Tri-System database. Privateer 2 is just as much a part of the Wing Commander continuity as any other game. Many sectors in other Wing Commander games are also missing from the map included with Prophecy - that map is only a slice of nearby space. The official P2 FAQ clarified that the Tri-System is in an isolated area that did not belong to the Confederation.

Cool, could you cite a few of the database posts, or at least tell me how they reference it (do they just mention the word Confederation and little else, or do they go into some detail)? I only remember comeing across one when I played, but I didn't read the posts very often (good chance I just missed them). Hopefully we'll get to see how the Tri-System was founded and get more details of its relationship with the Confederation in the next few games. (Sounds like a good sub plot).

 

[Blaster]

From Finley’s description in Prophecy I got the impression that the aliens were using a natural phenomenon in their own system to help create the wormhole. If that’s true than confed wouldn’t necessarily be able to create their own wormholes no matter how much they study the alien technology.

 

[NinjaLA]

I just thought that Confed would have captured a lot of alien tech from: blown up starfighters and Capships, and the derbies left behind after the wormhole collapsed (maybe Decker et al. made some tech scans when they were in the cooling towers). That would help the Confed Scientists (ConSci?) make there own version of the alien tech. Look how they retrofitted that big Nephilim gun on to the Midway. Granted, the development of something so advanced as "Wormhole" tech by Confed probably requires more on the part of the writers then the intelligence or creativity of Scientists and Engineers.

You didn't pay enough attention to the cutscenes in Prophecy then, they talk a bit about how everyone who touches peices from the alien ships contract horrible viruses.. Not exactly an efficiant way to glean new technology for your empire.
You touch, you die.

 

[Gamer8585]

You didn't pay enough attention to the cutscenes in Prophecy then, they talk a bit about how everyone who touches peices from the alien ships contract horrible viruses.. Not exactly an efficiant way to glean new technology for your empire.
You touch, you die.

I assumed that they would disinfect it first. At the very least they would keep it in quarantine and study it though glass with those oversized rubber arms.

From Finley’s description in Prophecy I got the impression that the aliens were using a natural phenomenon in their own system to help create the wormhole. If that’s true than confed wouldn’t necessarily be able to create their own wormholes no matter how much they study the alien technology.

I thought that was just a theory. Once again depends on the direction the writers take it.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Cool, could you cite a few of the database posts, or at least tell me how they reference it (do they just mention the word Confederation and little else, or do they go into some detail)? I only remember comeing across one when I played, but I didn't read the posts very often (good chance I just missed them). Hopefully we'll get to see how the Tri-System was founded and get more details of its relationship with the Confederation in the next few games. (Sounds like a good sub plot).

No real detail -- the 'booth' text mentions the Confederation just under fifty times (in the ship entries and the planet descriptions). You can read through transcriptions of it all here: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/art46.shtml

If you're interested in the history of the Tri-System, though, there's a *lot* of material in there!

There's some dialogue in the script about the Kilrathi -- it's on a news broadcast playing in one of the bar scenes. You can't hear it at all in the finished project, but the Portugese translation includes subtitles that point it out.

Another interesting bit of trivia comes from the unused second half to the 'Talon' mission, which further indicates how the Tri-System connects to the rest of Wing Commander's galaxy. You can read that here: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/7338

You didn't pay enough attention to the cutscenes in Prophecy then, they talk a bit about how everyone who touches peices from the alien ships contract horrible viruses.. Not exactly an efficiant way to glean new technology for your empire. You touch, you die.

You would be hard pressed to find that in Prophecy's cutscenes -- it's from the Secret Ops fiction

That's not the entire story, though -- the virus comes from 'dead' Nephilim starships... it was being spread through scavengers trying to make money off the derelicts leftover from the fighting in Prophecy. Also, a cure (however painful) was developed during WCSO -- so the virus is theoretically a non-issue.

I thought that was just a theory. Once again depends on the direction the writers take it.

That's kind of a cop-out, as it can be applied to anything. Prophecy does say (in several ways) that the Nephilim opened the wormhole through an anomaly in their space. This isn't an end-all for your argument, though: such anomalies could just as easily exist in Confederation space... and, of course, the Confederation has captured a working wormhole at Proxima.

 

[Gamer8585]

No real detail -- the 'booth' text mentions the Confederation just under fifty times (in the ship entries and the planet descriptions). You can read through transcriptions of it all here: https://www.wcnews.com/articles/art46.shtml

If you're interested in the history of the Tri-System, though, there's a *lot* of material in there!

There's some dialogue in the script about the Kilrathi -- it's on a news broadcast playing in one of the bar scenes. You can't hear it at all in the finished project, but the Portugese translation includes subtitles that point it out.

Wow, thanks LOAF

I knew you had a lot of knowledge about Wing Commader, but subtiltes on the Portugese translation? GODDAMN!
I had no idea about the mention of Kilrathi (I never heard it in the bar scenes; too noisy I guess). Is there a transcript of it somewhere, 'cause now I've just got to know what it says.

Another interesting bit of trivia comes from the unused second half to the 'Talon' mission, which further indicates how the Tri-System connects to the rest of Wing Commander's galaxy. You can read that here: https://www.wcnews.com/news/update/7338

I KNEW there was more to that fighter then that one rescue mission. I'm surprised that they didn't put a few more missions involving the Talon, and its pilot. At least one to explain how the !@#$ a Talon got to the Tri-System and how its going to get back (and preferably being able to buy a Talon in P2 as a reward for finishing said mission [who knows, it may be a pretty kickass ship after 100+ years]).

EDIT: I read over the articles mentioning the word Confederation, but it seems like its referring to the Tri-System's government rather then the Terran-Confederation. Which would make sense if the Tri-System is located at another part of the Galaxy and is not apart of the TC (otherwise all that stuff about the planets providing for the Confederation and the ships that are licensed to move anywhere in it make little sense to me).

 

[ChrisReid]

I read over the articles mentioning the word Confederation, but it seems like its referring to the Tri-System's government rather then the Terran-Confederation.

You have to think about why they even added the term. Why would there be a second confederation? The whole point of including those was to reference the confederation that we know. They would have just used "CIS" or "Tri-System" if they were talking about the local authorities.

 

[Houkiboshi]

OK, I'm a little lost... I never played P2, and I have no idea of what the Try-Sistem is... I only noticed 3 sistems outside the jump network in the CIC map, but that's it... can someone explain me what that is?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I had no idea about the mention of Kilrathi (I never heard it in the bar scenes; too noisy I guess). Is there a transcript of it somewhere, 'cause now I've just got to know what it says.

I don't have one handy, but I can dig p the video clip later (Ghost provided it, from his Porguese release). We're hoping to have a scanned version of the original script available in the very near future, though, and that should include that kind of material.

OK, I'm a little lost... I never played P2, and I have no idea of what the Try-Sistem is... I only noticed 3 sistems outside the jump network in the CIC map, but that's it... can someone explain me what that is?

The Tri-System is three interconnected star systems. It's the setting for Privater 2: The Darkening.

 

[Gamer8585]

You have to think about why they even added the term. Why would there be a second confederation? The whole point of including those was to reference the confederation that we know. They would have just used "CIS" or "Tri-System" if they were talking about the local authorities.

Well, its not to farfeched to believe that the 3 systems of the Tri-System are joined in a Confederate type government. If so then the Tri-System would probably be referred to as the Confederation quite often by its citizens (In fact "Tri-System" sounds like a colloquialism).

 

[NinjaLA]

Well, its not to farfeched to believe that the 3 systems of the Tri-System are joined in a Confederate type government. If so then the Tri-System would probably be referred to as the Confederation quite often by its citizens (In fact "Tri-System" sounds like a colloquialism).

Isn't that just a bit of rationalizing for why *you* don't think P2 fits in the series?

The designers certainly intended for it to be part of the WC universe. And it was nice to get quite a few new concepts instead of a blatant retelling of Privateer.

 

[Dougly]

Isn't that just a bit of rationalizing for why *you* don't think P2 fits in the series?

The designers certainly intended for it to be part of the WC universe. And it was nice to get quite a few new concepts instead of a blatant retelling of Privateer.

I enjoy P2 as much as anyone, and I do accept the fact that it takes place in the WC universe.

However, I think we ought to keep an open mind to the idea that the references to the "Confederation" were actually to something other than the Terran Confederation that we're used to.

Look at the following "booth text" description of planet Corinthias:

Until Cerulean Gemstones were found on Corinthias it had little to offer. Until that point the planet had only produced low grade ores for the Tri-System market. Now, however, this planet is one of the Confederations most valued assets.

The problem, of course, is that the folks at Origin said that the Tri-System is "in a separate part of the Wing Commander universe and has no contact with the Confederation." For an example of someone from Origin saying this, visit the log of their IRC chat.

So, a question: If the Tri-System has had no contact with the Confederation, how can the booth text possibly refer to it?

I'm willing to consider that my line of reasoning on this is off, and that the references to the Confederation really ARE to "our" Terran Confederation. Nevertheless, I don't think that theories to the contrary should be dismissed out of hand, as there is some evidence in their favor.

 

[Gamer8585]

I enjoy P2 as much as anyone, and I do accept the fact that it takes place in the WC universe.

However, I think we ought to keep an open mind to the idea that the references to the "Confederation" were actually to something other than the Terran Confederation that we're used to.

Look at the following "booth text" description of planet Corinthias:



The problem, of course, is that the folks at Origin said that the Tri-System is "in a separate part of the Wing Commander universe and has no contact with the Confederation." For an example of someone from Origin saying this, visit the log of their IRC chat.

So, a question: If the Tri-System has had no contact with the Confederation, how can the booth text possibly refer to it?

I'm willing to consider that my line of reasoning on this is off, and that the references to the Confederation really ARE to "our" Terran Confederation. Nevertheless, I don't think that theories to the contrary should be dismissed out of hand, as there is some evidence in their favor.

That's my point exactly. There is a "Terran-Confederation," (from most of the Wing Commander games) and a "Tri-System Confederation," (from Privateer 2) existing in the same universe at the same time (They just don't know about each other, or have any form of contact, save that one Talon that somehow finds its way to the Tri-System.)

 

[ChrisReid]

Well, its not to farfeched to believe that the 3 systems of the Tri-System are joined in a Confederate type government. If so then the Tri-System would probably be referred to as the Confederation

"It's not too farfetched" isn't a justification. Think about how much you have to stretch to make your idea work. The people writing the database entries for Privateer 2 didn't concoct some elaborate theory about how the Confederation they were writing about was actually this second secret Confederation. The whole point of those entries was to provide a cheap and easy way for the developers to link the game back to the rest of the series.

In fact "Tri-System" sounds like a colloquialism.

In fact, it does not.

I'm willing to consider that my line of reasoning on this is off, and that the references to the Confederation really ARE to "our" Terran Confederation. Nevertheless, I don't think that theories to the contrary should be dismissed out of hand, as there is some evidence in their favor.

If it seems like I've dismissed something too quickly, imagine that a couple of new posters show up and suggest the same things a couple times a year. I understand why they do it - P2 takes place far in the future and away from the sectors where the rest of the series takes place, but there haven't been any new or compelling evidence or theories for me to consider since 1997.

The problem, of course, is that the folks at Origin said that the Tri-System is "in a separate part of the Wing Commander universe and has no contact with the Confederation."

Of course, something doesn't become part of the Wing Commander continuity because it was mentioned in an interview. The actual text from the Official P2 FAQ reads:

"Does Privateer 2: The Darkening take place in the Wing Commander Universe?
Privateer 2: The Darkening takes place in an isolated section of the Wing Commander universe. The Tri-System is not currently a part of the Confederation."

That's my point exactly. There is a "Terran-Confederation," (from most of the Wing Commander games) and a "Tri-System Confederation," (from Privateer 2) existing in the same universe at the same time (They just don't know about each other, or have any form of contact, save that one Talon that somehow finds its way to the Tri-System.)

Hey, and maybe the Confederation in Privateer 1 and Wing Commander 3 are actually different things too. Maybe they might have just existed in the same universe at the same time with the same name. You can take this really far, but it gets kind of silly.

 

[Quarto]

Hey, and maybe the Confederation in Privateer 1 and Wing Commander 3 are actually different things too. Maybe they might have just existed in the same universe at the same time with the same name. You can take this really far, but it gets kind of silly.

The only trouble is, you're the one who's already taken this way beyond silly. In that IRC chat, Origin specifically stated that the Tri-System is not a part of the Confederation. In addition, those in-game references imply that the Tri-System is a part of the Confederation. Since we know (not just from the IRC log, but also from the FAQ) that the Tri-System is not a part of the Confederation, I just can't see why you'd even bother trying to argue this point at all - and the whole "the universe will explode if we assume this" line of argument is just plain ridiculous.

(and besides... they're the same thing because they use the same word? Geeze, nobody ever said the Kilrathi aren't actually related to human cats, either, but somehow we don't hear you claiming that they must be related, because people call them "cats")

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The only trouble is, you're the one who's already taken this way beyond silly. In that IRC chat, Origin specifically stated that the Tri-System is not a part of the Confederation. In addition, those in-game references imply that the Tri-System is a part of the Confederation. Since we know (not just from the IRC log, but also from the FAQ) that the Tri-System is not a part of the Confederation, I just can't see why you'd even bother trying to argue this point at all - and the whole "the universe will explode if we assume this" line of argument is just plain ridiculous.

I think you may be protesting too much. I completely agree with your point of view, but the sheer vehemence of your reaction to Chris surprises me. Without the FAQ question, Chris' comments are completely sound -- there would be no call to disavow the in-game references. Taken alone, it would be strange to insist that two Confederation's in one game universe are completely separate.

Similarly, there's some value to thinking on the original intent. Remember that the FAQ is a reactionary response, written a continent away after the release of the game. The answer was created to justify and classify the game in response to angry fans' comments. The game itself is, and its 'confederations' may very well simply be a desire to refer to the future government of Wing Commander.

That said, I do agree with you. Viewed in the light of the FAQ, the 'confederations' and the Talon mission do suggest that the 'confederation' of the Tri-System and the Terran Confederation are separate entities.

 

[Quarto]

Yeah, it was one of those posts that makes me wonder what I was thinking at the time. It wasn't actually my intention to attack Chris like that, but at some point, I somehow ended up losing the difference between a conclusive & decisive post, and a deliberately insulting one. I've already apologised to Chris in private.

I do still think it was an odd thing to argue (and that was why I wanted my post to be so conclusive) - given everything we know about how Privateer 2 relates with the rest of the WC universe, bringing up an argument along the lines of "if we assume these two Confederations are different, then the Priv and WC3 Confederations could be different too" seemed futile.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Yeah, it was one of those posts that makes me wonder what I was thinking at the time. It wasn't actually my intention to attack Chris like that, but at some point, I somehow ended up losing the difference between a conclusive & decisive post, and a deliberately insulting one. I've already apologised to Chris in private.

That's kind of you, but probably not necessary. We've all had enough arguments to know not to take something like this seriously.

I do still think it was an odd thing to argue (and that was why I wanted my post to be so conclusive) - given everything we know about how Privateer 2 relates with the rest of the WC universe, bringing up an argument along the lines of "if we assume these two Confederations are different, then the Priv and WC3 Confederations could be different too" seemed futile.

I do think that it's a poor argument in light of modern thinking, but I also recognize that there's a lengthy tradition of people refusing to accept the FAQ. The simple fact that the 'Is Privateer 2 WC?' argument still exists *after* that FAQ was published has always meant that people explaining the situation needed to take a more... hollistic approach. The 'confederations' are, in my mind, still reasonable proof that the people who actually designed The Darkening were thinking about the Wing Commander universe.

That said, I should point out that there has always been an argument, legitimate or not, that the "not currently" wording refers to whether or not the Tri-System is part of the Confederation during Wing Commander IV (the current release when the FAQ was published). Chris wasn't coming from nowhere.