Originally posted by Ijuin
...That is exactly the problem with the predestination view--it makes it completely pointless for an individual to attempt to live a virtuous life.
...If you are not destined for Heaven, then you are beyond help, and may as well get in as much fun as you can before you are inevitably sent to Hell. Conversely, if you are destined for Heaven, then no amount of sin will take that away, so you are free to act with impunity and do whatever you please with no fear of divine disapproval. Taken either way, predestination amounts to a license to sin.
Afraid not, young Padawan. If you go up to any pastor/elder or other mature believer you may trust who belongs to any mainstream Christian denomination (that is, any mature Christian who believes in the doctrine of predestination), and ask 'em if they see predestination as a license to sin, you will get a resounding "No" from them. Then ask 'em why they view it that way, and likely they'll espouse a view similar to what I outlined in my post. It only is a "license to sin" in the minds of those like yourself (apparently) who don't understand the theology behind it. A mature believer would understand what you aren't seeing (or don't
want to)...
Boy, did you ever miss the boat. Fortunately for you, there's almost always another one that comes by later. I advise you get on it. Go back & read my post again (On 1/17/03, posted at 13:53, 2 & 3rd paragraphs). Then if you wanna address the things I bring up there, we can talk.
Originally posted by Napoleon
...Ok bullsh*t there buddy, most of christendom if you count calvinist protestants and their theological descendants as most of christendom. You have the entire roman catholic church, which is the largest christian church, which doesnt believe in predestination, you have all the eastern orthodox religions as well, the armenian orthodox church, the coptic church, . All of which as best as i know (... i know what most other armenians believe as well as basic catholic doctorine)
Yes, I AM counting protestants, as well as Orthodox & Catholics, all together - that constitutes all of mainstream christianity (Sure, there are some faiths claiming to be Christian, but they really aren't (Jehovah's witnesses, for example), so they're not exactly mainstream). Anyway, my original point (as you noted above), thus stands correct... As to the CC (remember, I grew up in that tradition), as I'd said, they have a whole bunch of funky doctrines that have no basis whatsoever in Scripture (purgatory, or this whole devotion to Mary thing, for examples). This is why, when I came to Christ, I chose not to return to the CC I had grown up in: now that I had "seen the light", I was becoming all too well aware of their errors.
...Also the petrine doctrine has been debated by theologians back and forth for about 5 centuries, I seriously doubt any holes you poke in it werent filled about 4 centuries before you were born.
I never claimed to poke any "new" holes in it, I was just pointing out some holes that have no doubt been there (as you point out) "4 centuries before I was born". And none of them have been satisfactorily "filled", or else the debate would've ended long before this...
...You interpret your book of ancient tribal myths one way, the second oldest christian church disagrees with you, and many of the other sects of christianity, all of which have been around for much longer than protestants believe in some form of that concept having Patriarchs acting much the way the pope does, most notably the patriarch of Constantanople...
--"Ancient tribal myths" - Hah! Good one
...
The primary distinctive of a 'myth' is that it is a tale that is completely fictional. Mebbe you should've looked up the dictionary definition of the word before you used it, so you don't come off sounding half-baked, as you have here.
Ancient? Obviously. Tribal? Pretty much (12 tribes of Israel). Myths? Hardly: We get much of what we know today about ancient Israeli history, surrounding Middle Eastern history, and the history of the early church from this collection that you call "myths".
::shakes his head::
--Second largest church? I thought the CC was the largest, or were you talking about Orthodox?... (plz clarify).
..the Protestants claim that faith matters, but the vast majority of protestant sects do believe in predestination, making faith irrelevant because no amount of faith will ever overcome a bad mark from the beggining, and no lack of faith will ever send you to hell if god said ok in the beginning.
You act as if predestination and faith are mutually exclusive; they are not. If they were, then just
maybe faith would be irrelevant. Go get a pot of coffee in you so you can jolt yourself into a state of at least half-consciousness. Then go back and read my post again. Then read it a third time. By then, hopefully you can comprehend what I wrote, and you'll see the point I made there. Here, let me help you: The post was written on 1/17, at 13:53. Check the 2nd & 3rd paragraphs.
...while the protestants DO preach faith as the be all and end all (that is the primary difference between catholic and protestant beliefs, the catholics believe that faith and good works are necesary for redemption. The protestants only speak of faith as mattering, at least Luther said that good works were irrelevant and faith was all that mattered, something that John Calvin agreed with though he went further to say that redemption was already determined before birth. These views form the core of almost every protestant group that i know of...
I don't much care what the CC (or any church) says. The yardstick that I (and most every Christian I know) use is, "what does the
Bible say on this matter?"... On the matter of salvation by works (more specifically, the lack thereof), James addresses it head on in James 2:14-26. Essentially, it boils down to this: Good works are an outgrowth of the prime necessity, faith. Thus, If faith is
genuine, it
will be accompanied by good works. If someone claims faith but they have not/do not produce any good works, then their faith is "dead" (that is, not genuine or sincere). Conversely, someone can go around doing all kind of good works for mere humanitarian reasons, but they have not true faith; such a one is no better off spiritually than if they just sat at home drinking all day. The CC tends to come down in this latter category, and they do so to their shame. Anyway, the bottom line here is this: Faith without works is dead, and works without faith are useless. They need to be together, and if A is genuine, B will accompany it naturally.
) .Isnt that the English Street language ?
