Excellent suggestions for Standoff team

[Toast]

Actually these special ships are stored in the ALTSHIPS.??? files so the usual editors won't open them. You can change them manually with a hex editor - and yes, there is a special Hobbes' crossbow that has two particles and two neutrons. Also, the crossbow that Thrakhath flies have phase shielding as a sort of continuity hack so that he always survives and escapes.

In SO2, some traitor sabres in a particular mission had its stats transposed with a morningstar - nasty stuff! Once again fixable from the ALTSHIPS files.

Nice to know, at long last. The SO series seemed rather hastily glued together to me... the weirdness going on with the ships really had me wondering what was going on in there. I'm not really that much a stickler for ship stats - but obvious and unexplained weirdness sorta detracts from the suspension of disbelief, you know?

 

[Dyret]

Hastily? I'm not sure making alternate ship versions actually saves time.

 

[Quarto]

Actually these special ships are stored in the ALTSHIPS.??? files so the usual editors won't open them.

Yeah, that's what I said - they're not stored in separate files that can be opened with the ship editor .

Also, the crossbow that Thrakhath flies have phase shielding as a sort of continuity hack so that he always survives and escapes.

Hehe, neat. I've never really spent too much time studying the altships.* files, and I always wondered how Thrakhath's invulnerability was achieved. Is there an alternate Bonnie Heather version out there as well, for those missions where the ship is invulnerable?

 

[ChrisReid]

Isn't the Bonnie Heather always invulnerable?

 

[Quarto]

IIRC, there is one mission in WC2 (the last time we see Paladin before the add-ons) where the ship is not invulnerable. But I might be wrong, I haven't played WC2 for about three years now.


...I really need to find the time to re-play the whole series again .

 

[Toast]

Hastily? I'm not sure making alternate ship versions actually saves time.

But not checking the files to see if you've used the right one sure does

I think the hostile Epees in SO2 only mount 1 particle cannon, for ex. Of course I could be wrong, but those buggers didn't hurt nearly as much as I figured they would.

Even so, you have a point. What *was* up with Hobbes' Crossbow? I can understand them using phase shields on the Bonnie Heather and Thrakath's ship to ensure continuity, but there's nothing else in the game that remotely uses that setup.

 

[Quarto]

But not checking the files to see if you've used the right one sure does

What makes you think they didn't check? There's all sorts of reasons why they might prefer to have Sabres with a Morningstar loadout for missions where the player himself flies a Morningstar.

I think the hostile Epees in SO2 only mount 1 particle cannon, for ex. Of course I could be wrong, but those buggers didn't hurt nearly as much as I figured they would.

...And there's a very obvious reason for it - in some of those SO1 missions, you yourself fly an Epee, and get killed by one-particle Epees on a rather regular basis. If the enemy Epees fired a pair of particles, the missions would become extremely difficult.

All in all, the fact that they went and gave weird loadouts to some of the ships does't mean that they were lazy - quite the opposite, it means they were willing to go far out of their way in order to balance the game. Remember, this was back in the days before people decided that every game in the world must have easy/normal/hard difficulty settings - WC2 had just one setting, and it had to be playable for everyone.

 

[Delance]

Isn't the Bonnie Heather always invulnerable?

The funny part is that when the damage hits 100, you still get to hear the "loss" music.

 

[Toast]

What makes you think they didn't check? There's all sorts of reasons why they might prefer to have Sabres with a Morningstar loadout for missions where the player himself flies a Morningstar.


...And there's a very obvious reason for it - in some of those SO1 missions, you yourself fly an Epee, and get killed by one-particle Epees on a rather regular basis. If the enemy Epees fired a pair of particles, the missions would become extremely difficult.

Oh, believe me - this I understood. You're a sitting duck in that Crossbow. Not as much as you would be in a Broadsword, but you're still a sitting duck, and you will get hit by those Epees. If they had regular firepower, you'd be finished, and quickly, I know. How do you think I came up with my callsign?

All in all, the fact that they went and gave weird loadouts to some of the ships does't mean that they were lazy - quite the opposite, it means they were willing to go far out of their way in order to balance the game. Remember, this was back in the days before people decided that every game in the world must have easy/normal/hard difficulty settings - WC2 had just one setting, and it had to be playable for everyone.

Eh, I'm not totally convinced. Tweaking, sure - but arming the hostile Epee's with one particle or making Maniac's fighter tougher to simulate skill is a little more subtle than giving Morningstar stats to the Sabre.

Anyway, Quarto, my quasi-criticisms of SO are not meant as a general attack on the game designer's craft. I mention it mostly as an oblique compliment to you and the others working on Standoff (as if it wasn't already clear that I think you've put together a marvelous mod.) You've gone to a lot of trouble to make Standoff interesting - I'm still exploring all the mission branches - and in particular, the amount of balancing in Ep3 is pretty artful, not heavy-handed. I'm not seeing any mission design artifacts in there like funky ships making me go, "huh?" The missions are all fairly difficult but not impossible, and in that respect the campaign feels pretty real. Kurosawa was the only real stumbling block in WC1, which otherwise was a pretty easy road to Venice.


Anyway, gotta go. Cheers

 

[MavS]

...
Actually these special ships are stored in the ALTSHIPS.??? files so the usual editors won't open them. You can change them manually with a hex editor - and yes, there is a special Hobbes' crossbow that has two particles and two neutrons. Also, the crossbow that Thrakhath flies have phase shielding as a sort of continuity hack so that he always survives and escapes.

In SO2, some traitor sabres in a particular mission had its stats transposed with a morningstar - nasty stuff! Once again fixable from the ALTSHIPS files.

Hm... I'm pretty sure I saw Hobbes with a Crossbow having the normal 3 Mass Drivers and 2 Particles instead of the 2 Neutrons (usually got killed by it if I accidentally "traitored"). (never saw a 2N+2P variant, though)
I thought of it as a left-over from early design stages - the Crossbow is a new top-of-the-line ship after all, so it would at first make sense to give it Particles; and later they replaced them by Neutrons for balancing reasons, while forgetting Hobbes... well, at least that's how I always explained that to me...

And the Sabres with Morningstar stats (i.e. Sabres with 3 Particles and maybe no turrets [not sure with the last one] ; can't confirm if the rest got swapped, too) - well, I think I slightly remember those, too. And yes, I also think that swapping stats of different ships seems more likely to be a glitch then reducing the number of Particles on the Epees (duh - I didn't notice these... but I also thought the Bloodfang had 2 Particles back then... ).

Oh, and about Thrakhath - nice to know, thanks. I only played the story once, so I didn't notice all of these subtleties...

...I know team Standoff says it makes more sense for a Gemini-stationed carrier to be flying Stilettos instead of Epees, and Stilettos definitely look to be more atmosphere-capable than Epees. Their diminutive size, though, makes them a great choice for those cramped CVE hangars... that, and their ability to carry a torpedo.

Just that, if I remember it correctly, there also was a loadout for the Epee with one torpedo, that I flew at least once while playing the WC2-series...

Well, no. As I said before, at the time we didn't have the patch that adjusted the refire rates, and we didn't know such a patch would ever be possible. So, having four particle cannons would have been out of the question. As for other possible gun combinations... particles and mass drivers would have been just like the Sabre, and particles and lasers just like the Rapier. This combination at least made the ship more or less unique. But, that's just guesswork on my part - as I said earlier, I don't remember anything from that particular discussion .

Well, ok - that's a reason, then.

This combination at least made the ship more or less unique.

Right.

I have no idea, but it's entirely possible. You say you hit the Dorkathi from 5000 metres with the Particle? Well, I just ran Academy, and I was able to hit Candar Space Station from 6500 metres with the Particle. And according to the manual, Candar is a mere 400 metres in length (that is, its outer edge is theoretically 200 metres from the station's centre).

...

...Which certainly is odd. I suppose at some point I need to open the EXE up and check those values again - maybe the particle's 3000 metres is actually some kind of typo I made when noting down the values in the first place.

Uh, that's odd - so I take a look at the space station, and you take one on the EXE... (of course only as soon as we get to it)

I really think the appeal of Standoff shipwise is that you can still get the job done with those piece of crap fighters. Kinda feels good!

Uh, you got me there... Actually, since I got to the Sim, I didn't continue the story any more - not that I don't plan on doing it (and I certainly don't want to dishonour the work of the Standoff-team in any way), but at the moment I'm more interested in getting to my limits in the sim.

And the Gladius REALLY is a nice ship - of course I'd like a bit thicker shields and a somewhat higher AB speed, but I do prefer the gun loadout to the Rapier's (Gladius has Particles on the inner part of the salvo, while on the Rapier the Particles are on the outside...) And of course, the Rapier doesn't have any torpedoes.

And a quick question about the scoring-system (or, more precisely, about the way the scores are sorted) : Wouldn't it make more sense to award medals for each mission separetely (like make each line in the pilots' profile that currently says "ship A - x/y" instead say "ship A - x/y ; b/c ; ...")? I somehow feel like the results in the Confed-Sim are a bit under-rated the way it is now... And once you include more different missions in the scoreboard - even ones with capship-attacks - this issue would seem even more severe... (which doesn't mean it's bad to include more missions)
(am only asking - nobody get upset, please)

Oh, believe me - this I understood. You're a sitting duck in that Crossbow. Not as much as you would be in a Broadsword, but you're still a sitting duck, and you will get hit by those Epees. If they had regular firepower, you'd be finished, and quickly, I know. How do you think I came up with my callsign? ...

rofl... Nice idea for choosing callsigns .

 

[Thunderbolt]

If I could make a minor suggestion for Standoff it would be that the Kilrathi Aces be a bit more deadly than they are currently. I love the way they launch a continual barrage of taunts at you which come from some of the aces in WC3 like 'Bloodmist' which I think was used for Korgath Bloodfist. However the 2 aces which you face in the game are way too easy to kill. Is it possible for if not them but future kilrathi aces to fly superior designs of ships that we already see with enhanced shields and heavier armor and weaponary as well as more speed.

A more aggressive AI would be good as well (if it can be done) as it would make these kilrathi aces particualry dangerous to fight although I know that there are Kilrathi super fighters on the Standoff website that can outperform a Rapier and I presume that Kilrathi will be flying them in later chapters.

 

[Toast]

If I could make a minor suggestion for Standoff it would be that the Kilrathi Aces be a bit more deadly than they are currently. I love the way they launch a continual barrage of taunts at you which come from some of the aces in WC3 like 'Bloodmist' which I think was used for Korgath Bloodfist. However the 2 aces which you face in the game are way too easy to kill. Is it possible for if not them but future kilrathi aces to fly superior designs of ships that we already see with enhanced shields and heavier armor and weaponary as well as more speed.

A more aggressive AI would be good as well (if it can be done) as it would make these kilrathi aces particualry dangerous to fight although I know that there are Kilrathi super fighters on the Standoff website that can outperform a Rapier and I presume that Kilrathi will be flying them in later chapters.

I think they've already said that hacking the AI isn't feasible. I'm guessing that if they were to stop and do so, Ep. 4 and Ep. 5 would be delayed for a long time. They can change general parameters of a pilot's skill level and frequency of comm chatter, but as an example, they said that they did everything they could to make flying against a certain defector in Ep1 as difficult as possible but were never able to quite make it as hard as flying against Jazz in WC2. Additional ship types could be a problem because it seems that the Vision engine will only contemplate so many different ship templates - a special ace's ship wouldn't just be a variation, it'd have to be a completely different ship type in the game's roster, which by various accounts is a limited resource.

I'm not speaking from personal knowledge, but it's what I infer from reading the forums. I'm a little surprised that the engine is so limited in its extensibility - a maximum of 16 gun types, period? Are system resources so tight that they could only spare 4 bits to designating gun hardpoint loadouts? But, if you have 30 fighters at a nav point loading 6 guns apiece plus turrets, with multiple nav points per mission, I suppose each little bit adds up, and system resources back then what they were now...

But yeah. The aces are a little wimpy, aren't they? Oh, well. I can hardly fault Kramm Deathfang for having trouble dodging dumbfires in his lumbering Jalkehi

 

[Eder]

We did all we could do on this matter... which is to say, we've assigned the best possible attributes to the ace pilots.

These attributes are like a rating on a 1-10 scale for each of the pilot's skills (flying, aggressiveness, etc). The problem is that we can't change what 10 means, and increasing the numbers past 10 has no effect.

So, while our average pilot has better attributes than WCP's average pilot, our most skilled pilot and WCP's most skilled pilot are both capped at the same level.

 

[Cardinal]

These attributes are like a rating on a 1-10 scale for each of the pilot's skills (flying, aggressiveness, etc). The problem is that we can't change what 10 means, and increasing the numbers past 10 has no effect.

Do what Nigel Tufnel would do: "These go to eleven."

 

[cff]

e, but it's what I infer from reading the forums. I'm a little surprised that the engine is so limited in its extensibility - a maximum of 16 gun types, period? Are system resources so tight that they could only spare 4 bits to designating gun hardpoint loadouts?

Why should Origin reserve more memory? If THEY needed 32 guns they'd just have assigned one more bit and recompile the game. Its only us modders that have problems with such arbitrary limits.

 

[MavS]

Pretty right - and modding wasn't as popular/widespread/known/supported (sorry, not sure which word fits best here) back then... Maybe If they'd program it nowadays they'd add some free ressources for modders (after all, many games have level editors and such included by now).

... Oh, well. I can hardly fault Kramm Deathfang for having trouble dodging dumbfires in his lumbering Jalkehi

rofl - now THAT's something to imagine... It's hard enough dodging DFs in maneuverable ships, I really wouldn't want to try this in a Jalkehi.


Btw. , any comments on what I said about the Crossbow and the Scoreboard above?

 

[Thunderbolt]

I can hardly fault Kramm Deathfang for having trouble dodging dumbfires in his lumbering Jalkehi

~~~ thats true its real hard when you fly a Broadsword in the Simulator mission 5 on difficulty 3. I'd say on average I'd have about an 80% death rate. Although If Kramm Deathfang and the other Jalkehi's spent there time flying at you firing their 5 guns instead of either flying in circles or retreating from you they might have a chance. Makes me think that even Wing commander IVs AI was better but maybe I'm wrong there.

 

[Toast]

~~~ thats true its real hard when you fly a Broadsword in the Simulator mission 5 on difficulty 3. I'd say on average I'd have about an 80% death rate. Although If Kramm Deathfang and the other Jalkehi's spent there time flying at you firing their 5 guns instead of either flying in circles or retreating from you they might have a chance. Makes me think that even Wing commander IVs AI was better but maybe I'm wrong there.

Hard to say... for me at least. I didn't find WC IV's AI particularly difficult even when compared to Prophecy - but they *are* a lot more missile-happy in there, which tends to be bad news since, in WC IV, every missile hit carried a 25% chance of instant death regardless of the state of your ship. And since you were fighting Confed a lot, esp. Hellcats and Excaliburs, you had to dodge a lot of IRs.

I wonder if the relative scarcity of hostile missile locks in Standoff has anything to do with the loadouts - maybe the cats in Standoff Eps 1-3 aren't packing a lot of IFF or IR missiles. Same's true for us - as far as I know, of the flyable fighters only the Sabres pack any Spiculums.

If we could customize our loadouts in Standoff (and I understand why we can't) I'd probably just load up on mostly dumbfires anyway. The Pilums are so slow and spoof-prone that I usually just unload them at point-blank range when I happen to rear-end a heavy fighter. With so many cats and so few missiles, just about any cat you toss a missile at is going to have one or two decoys left for any missile you care to throw at it. But you can't spoof a dumbfire.

 

[Quarto]

Btw. , any comments on what I said about the Crossbow and the Scoreboard above?

Uh, which Crossbow comments were those?

As for what you asked about the scoring... we already do give medals for each mission separately. You can see, for example, that Sternenwind has one medal for every ship at the bottom of his profile, and a medal for mission 1 at the top.

I suppose what you might have been trying to ask, though, is why not have a separate medal per ship for every mission... well, consider what this would mean. Right now, a person can get one medal for every ship (14) and one for every mission (2, but eventually will be 10). That's a total of 16 (eventually, 24). If, on the other hand, you had separate medals, then there would be a total of 140 ship medals (plus the 10 overall best mission score medals). Imagine what a pilot's profile would look like, if he managed to rack up all 150 medals! Just the medals would take up a whole screen . Worse still, though, would be if one person didn't colllect up all of the medals. If you look at the list of pilots, you'll notice that only 133 people have sent in any scores at all (and of those 133, many have only sent in one or two scores). What this means is that we could theoretically end up with every active participant in possession of at least one medal - which would make the medals entirely meaningless.

~~~ thats true its real hard when you fly a Broadsword in the Simulator mission 5 on difficulty 3. I'd say on average I'd have about an 80% death rate. Although If Kramm Deathfang and the other Jalkehi's spent there time flying at you firing their 5 guns instead of either flying in circles or retreating from you they might have a chance. Makes me think that even Wing commander IVs AI was better but maybe I'm wrong there.

Well, look on the bright side - at least you know Kramm survived the loss of his Jalkehi, because he appears again in WC3 .

As for the AI in general, it's pretty clear that the WCP AI is actually much better than the AI had been in previous games. Just look at the way the ships fly - performing neat manoeuvres like barrel rolls and fishhooks that they had never done in previous games. Similarly, the AI ships work together much better, calling each other for help and so on. The reason that the AI seems worse is simply because WCP was designed with much bigger battles in mind. If you're going to have the player fighting against three or four ships, you want each of them to pose a major challenge. But if you want the player to fight against twenty ships, you have to make the individual ships easier to kill and less deadly to the player, because otherwise he simply won't survive.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Well, look on the bright side - at least you know Kramm survived the loss of his Jalkehi, because he appears again in WC3 .

~~~ I don't remember fighting Kramm Deathfang in WC3 but assuming that he is harder for Colonel Blair to kill I guess he realised that he needed to spend a few more hours in the simulator then what he has been before the Battle of Earth