Damn Darn DRM Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
No! Rights are important things that... you know, matter. Pretending that Electronic Arts wanting to know your e-mail address or making you connect to the internet before you can play The Sims 3 is some terrible violation of your essential humanity is just egregiously diluting the very concept of rights. It's such an obnoxious thought process: people care about rights, I care about this... so I should couch it in these incredibly broad terms so everyone will care. Not everything is an epic battle between extremes and pretending it is ruins the field for issues that are actually important.
 
Firstly privacy laws are an issue at least in continental Europe. The legislation is different, the general approach to such questions is different than in the states, the discurse on such issues is different, therefore the laws are quite a bit different here. Therefore companies that want to do business here are obliged to play by our rules that our legislation has set, period. I dont see why that is so objectable - just because YOU dont care about these things or dont have the same level of privacy protection laws in the States doesnt mean we have to just live with it.

But it does not end at privacy infringements its generally the way that customers are deprived of their rights in the current EULAs. There are clauses in the recent EA EULA that basically state make the thing void. EA demands the right to change its condition without advance notice and enough time for the customer to protest such an action (which are basic consumer laws - actually its already a stretch as by Austrian law a one sided change of the terms of use is already problematic - depriving the customer of the possibility to object is outright break of most national laws). Including a software that spys on your data, whatever that data might be just is illegal around here - simple as that, a contract based on such conditions is void - it would have to be considered "offending against good morals".

On importance. You might not care about your data - thats up to you. I definitly dont want my customer rights diminished by a foreign company just because it thinks it does not have to play by legal rules.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cff
I DO care about these things: I care about how stupid it makes me look to be associated with the same group of people who thinks harping on this crap is interesting. It's a giant one sided issue that exists entirely in your own head. EA is never, ever, ever, ever going to use whatever EULA you clicked through to download Mirror's Edge to hurt you in any way. That's just... the end of it. It's this inane lengthy deduction, one of those things where you set out to figure out how you can get to some terrible worst case scenario and then leap through a million hoops to get there. You're going around crying wolf about something that WILL NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

It's certainly something that isn't worth any sort of discussion in advance. If in a year EA decides to use my personal information to start... I don't know, what is the actual fear here? Some kind of scenario where they can legally murder me?... then there will actually be a problem to complain about. Until that time it's just this stupid teenage WHAT IF THE SKY WERE FALLING bullshit, the very existence of which offends me as a thinking person.
 
Hey you guys,
have you ever noticed that you could ball up the registration cards that come with computer games and then choke on them? And because that's a thing that theoretically could happen, it therefore is something that IS GOING TO HAPPEN and is clearly a SINISTER PLOT on the part of EVIL COMPANIES to deprive you of YOUR RIGHTS! We have to stop this NOW before it spreads, since they're obviously out to get us! Human lives are in danger!

NOTE: The way to stop this is not to stop buying these games, but instead to whine a lot on the internet.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I DO care about these things: I care about how stupid it makes me look to be associated with the same group of people who thinks harping on this crap is interesting. It's a giant one sided issue that exists entirely in your own head. EA is never, ever, ever, ever going to use whatever EULA you clicked through to download Mirror's Edge to hurt you in any way. That's just... the end of it. It's this inane lengthy deduction, one of those things where you set out to figure out how you can get to some terrible worst case scenario and then leap through a million hoops to get there. You're going around crying wolf about something that WILL NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPEN.

It's certainly something that isn't worth any sort of discussion in advance. If in a year EA decides to use my personal information to start... I don't know, what is the actual fear here? Some kind of scenario where they can legally murder me?... then there will actually be a problem to complain about. Until that time it's just this stupid teenage WHAT IF THE SKY WERE FALLING bullshit, the very existence of which offends me as a thinking person.
Click to expand...

Its not about what they actually do. Its about them ignoring the basic rule of law in our countries, imposing terms of use that are just that, illegal. Therefore any contract signed on these conditions is void. EA was quite fast to react as they already changed their terms where they stated that theyd use your data to sell or make it available to others. The other points are still in, and as I said those conditions are not legal by many states laws.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
Oh no! And EA is constantly hurting so many people! We have to do something!
Click to expand...

Dont get so defensive about EA, it does not matter wheter its EA or another company. There are set limits of what you can put into your terms. Allowing companies to ignore those limits effectivly deprives customers of their rights on a much broader scale than a simple computer game. You are creating precedents that might ultimatly hurt you in a completly unrelated case if let them be.

BTW, get over your grudge with the internet. You might disagree with my point of view, if it werent for the "internetz" we might not even have this discussion. And in the end its about communication, so why should I refrain from communicating my opinion in a way that others might read it? Maybe my English skills are limited so might I inquire how my words have agravated you to that level of debate?
 
Okay, let me step back for a minute, because it's really easy to make fun of this but it doesn't really help anyone. Other tham me, who enjoys it immensely and then feels bad about it a little bit later.

Here's why hyping this nonsense hurts real life.

I've worked with EA specifically on projects for over fifteen years now, with great results. And I can tell you exactly how this crap has changed things.

In 1996 if I came up with some cool idea for the website I could make a phone call to Austin. No lawyers, talk directly with someone from the creative side--if they like my idea (like, say, posting the WCA videos) then they'd say go ahead and that would be it.

In 2011, "EA Legal" isn't just a department... it's a PLACE. It's an entire office building in California that's 100% lawyers who exist because they have to deal with stupid issues like this. And you know how lawyers work? When in doubt, don't.

Specifically, that's what's going on with the GOG addons right now. The TINIEST LEGAL QUESTION about their status now has to be examined at a cost of thousands and thousands of dollars in legal fees and MONTHS of equivocation. And there's no guarantee it's going to happen! Fifteen years ago a phone call to Chris Roberts would have been enough for an "sure mate, do it." It's SO FRUSTRATING.

Everyone I know who actually works for EA wants to make games and sell them and no one cares about whatever X-Files conspiracy you've decided their boilerplate means is happening. It hurts the community, it hurts the company and it hurts just the general concept of games as something that you're supposed to enjoy to keep playing out these Slashdot fantasies like they're a thing that matters.
 
Zelvik said:
But it does not end at privacy infringements its generally the way that customers are deprived of their rights in the current EULAs. There are clauses in the recent EA EULA that basically state make the thing void. EA demands the right to change its condition without advance notice and enough time for the customer to protest such an action (which are basic consumer laws - actually its already a stretch as by Austrian law a one sided change of the terms of use is already problematic - depriving the customer of the possibility to object is outright break of most national laws).
Click to expand...
The really outrageous thing that companies do however, is the whole "compulsory arbitration" thing. Essentially, by consenting to the EULA, you supposedly forfeit any and all right to bring a lawsuit against the company for any possible claim related to the product (including if the product fried your system AND you have proof of this that would stand up in court). Instead, you are required to submit your claim to an arbiter who is chosen and paid by the company, and who thus has no guarantee of neutrality.

For reference, here is the complete text of the Seventh Amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"n Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

I read this to mean that no party has the authority to compel out-of-court settlement of claims. Yes, twenty dollars was a lot more in 1787 than it is now (a full ounce of gold, so over $1500 in today's money), but the principle is still that private contracts can not nullify the action of the courts.
 
I don't even care about DRM... sometimes it can get pretty stupid, like with spore's installation limit (enjoy you new car, just remember it will blow up after 20 miles, just in case you should decide to use it in a bank robbery down the road!), and even then you could always contact EA, or if you can't be bothered to, download a crack or something, it's not the end of the world. What really bothers me is the way PC-gamers tend to act about this sort of thing... they're like that kid in school that spend all day every day alone in a corner somewhere because he thinks he's just too damned special to talk to stupid mere humans... only incredibly loud about it... all over the place... DRM SUCKS! STEAM SUCKS! CONSOLES ARE THE WORK OF THE DEVIL! CONSOLE GAMERS ARE STUPID AND DON'T KNOW HOW TO READ! CALL OF DUTY SUCKS! ALL FPS GAMES SUCK BECAUSE THEY ARE LIKE CALL OF DUTY ONLY NOT! FALLOUT SUCKS BECAUSE IT HAS A COMPASS NOW!

Seriously, what happened to just sitting down in front of epic, big screened hex-core rig and just enjoying the hell out of some amazing new game or another. Is enjoying games not supposed to be what gamers do these days? Are we just to damned cool to stoop to such console-gamery levels as to actually play games for fun and enjoyment? Do we need to look for things to be angry about at every turn?

Christ.
 
Bandit LOAF said:
I DO care about these things: It's a giant one sided issue that exists entirely in your own head. EA is never, ever, ever, ever going to use whatever EULA you clicked through to download Mirror's Edge to hurt you in any way. You're going around crying wolf about something that WILL NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPEN.
Click to expand...

Sure, just like it never happened for Blizzard and BattleNet... Or Ubissoft...
Loaf, just because you have some connections to EA and want to believe that they are the good guys doesn't make them so. And even if they are today, what about tomorrow? Quite frankly I am just as sick and tired of you praising DRM measures 'that dont hurt us' as you are about critical voices.
 
That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that this is such an uninteresting problem and that it's emblematic of an increasingly unpleasant society that has decided it needs to pretend every mild inconvenience is the end of the world. "Hey, it sure is annoying that I have to unlock this game online before I can play it" is the only thought any of this deserves. You dorks have somehow convinced yourselves that the fight against video games having copy protection is somehow the next battlefield in history's march towards human rights and that's just freaking insane.

And BORING. Listen to you idiots spew this crap at every possible opportunity is REALLY BORING (look at the original thread--some doofus is complaining that there MIGHT be copy protection in a game that MIGHT someday exist? YOU HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED TO REPEAT THIS.) Play games and enjoy them! Or don't! Just shut the hell up about this nonsense.
 
As I already said, this is not limited to gaming, this is a question of law. I dont care wheter its a car company or a gaming company, if they have me sign a contract that is illegal to purchase their business that puts their business model into a gray legal area - the service itself is perfectly legal but the conditions associated with it are not. That is a problematic situation - depriving me and other customers to seek settlement before court is just not possible, wheter you put it into your terms or not. There is quite a simple solution to such things, dont try to impose illegal terms on your customers - its that simple. And actually its exactly the fact that they ignore consumer rights that will get them into lawsuits, as one has to sue them to get your right in a circumstance where its possible. The company will point to its illegal terms and you have to go to court to force them to accept that they are not legal in the first place.

@DRM: Actually I never said a word about copy protection systems. The only concern I have with DRM systems is when they utilize methods that bring them into conflict with basic consumer rights.

On the other hand I could care less, as I havent bought a PC game for years now - and the only one I plan to buy doesnt utilize a DRM system.
 
I found the following information in regards to the Origin service.

http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/lsoj6/still_thinking_eas_origin_is_harmless/c2vbjty

If you hook process monitor onto Origin you will not see Origin scanning anything, independently of how long you use it. So what triggered the OP's screenshot?
Origin on installation will try to find games installed on your harddrive and automatically register them within Origin. It does that in a couple of different ways:
  1. It reads the windows games registry
  2. It looks for games in Program Files
  3. It looks for games in ProgramData (where, for unknown reason the OP's SMS and tax software are storing the data instead of the user profile where that data should go!)
  4. it reads the xfire config if it finds one for games
If you look at the screenshot closely you will see that it does not actually read any files. Instead it looks for their existence and recursively walks the directory. It does not read any of your files, at least not judging from this screenshot or anything I have found on my machine.
Lastly if you monitor the network traffic that Origin causes you will see that it does not transmit anything of value to EA. So far I have not seen anything bug login credentials being submitted.
But it's always so much more fun to assume that software is inherently evil. You can hook a syscall monitor on any application and you will see that it operates all over the drive. That's not something unique to Origin. Steam will do the same if you click the "add non steam game" button.
 
Whew, is EA threatening to cut support for this site if there's too many critical posts?
Just as game companies will always complain about what's inconvenient for them (piracy), gamers will always complain about what they consider inconvenient. There's probably a consensus somewhere in the middle.
I have no problem with DRM in general, i don't even care about being able to resell my copies. I don't buy that many games that i run the risk of becoming a poor man if i don't resell brand new games after a single playthrough.
EA (and other companies) can send me all the user-tailored ads they want, but if i'm unable to play a (singleplayer) game because of a bad internet connection, then that's an avoidable inconvenience.
That's not just a problem for "whining losers that play all day and make an issue out of everything", but ESPECIALLY for people who only play 4-5 games a year and want at least those few games to function properly those few times they are actually played.
I agree nothing that's said here will influence a big gaming company's policy in any way, still there's no harm expressing one's fears, no matter if they're justified or not.
And i daresay EA's bloated legal department isn't entirely the fault of kids whining about copy protection systems.
 
Whew, is EA threatening to cut support for this site if there's too many critical posts?
Click to expand...

Yup, everyone either agrees with you or is part of some secret conspiracy. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE.

EA (and other companies) can send me all the user-tailored ads they want, but if i'm unable to play a (singleplayer) game because of a bad internet connection, then that's an avoidable inconvenience.
Click to expand...

Yeah, and that would be pretty darned annoying /when it happens/. But it didn't happen, did it? The game the guy is complaining about DRM maybe existing for DOESN'T EVEN EXIST. What you've done here is create an incredibly theoretical scenario and then exploded a million brain cells and internet pods complaining about it! You decided that there could theoretically someday maybe be a problem and so that's the most terrible thing in the universe. If EA comes out with Mass Effect 7 tomorrow and there's some "DRM" that hurts the experience, BY ALL MEANS COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT SPECIFIC THING HAPPENING.* When it happens!

* - Now, mind you that as complaints go, "this video game is unplayable in some instances" goes in the same category as "my car doesn't have enough cup holders" and "they didn't get the toppings right on my pizza!" It DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES go up there with war, famine, disease and so on.

I agree nothing that's said here will influence a big gaming company's policy in any way, still there's no harm expressing one's fears, no matter if they're justified or not.
Click to expand...

Okay, but then you should be really really happy that I'm here to ease your mind by telling you, straight out, that your fears are dumb.​
 
Bandit LOAF said:
* - Now, mind you that as complaints go, "this video game is unplayable in some instances" goes in the same category as "my car doesn't have enough cup holders" and "they didn't get the toppings right on my pizza!" It DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES go up there with war, famine, disease and so on.
Click to expand...

Fortunatly for me and most others we have not been affected by these for quite some time now, our civil societies therefore revolve around the day to day problems of its citizens. There is a quite high possibility that I might not be affected by war in my lifetime as has my father, woohoo to our generations who never had to fire a rifle or go hungry. Its day to day dealings that affect us on a legal level, what rights we are entitled to as customers/service providers, tenants and landlords.

What you are saying is, as long as we dont go hungry we should keep our mouth shut over companies that break the law, because thats esentialy what has been done. Its a violation of customer protection laws, the terms are illegal as they stand. So is that your message "ITS OK TO BREAK THE LAW"?
 

What you are saying is, as long as we dont go hungry we should keep our mouth shut over companies that break the law, because thats esentialy what has been done. Its a violation of customer protection laws, the terms are illegal as they stand. So is that your message "ITS OK TO BREAK THE LAW"?​
Click to expand...
​
Yup, I'm clearly saying some extreme crazy broad thing that needs to be decoded from my messages and only you're smart enough to do it. You are a genius and completely special. Leave this place, take your message to the rest of the internet! Obviously, my long ranting posts that go into exacting detail about how and specifically why I think you're a dork are actually some kind of subtle message that you've finally extracted here. Let me reassure you that this read is not at all the exact thing I'm complaining about people doing in the first place! You're clever and wonderful! Kudos! We'll he having a parade for you later.​
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top