Damn Darn DRM Discussion
- Thread starter Triple-B
- Start date
- Status
Mace
Vice Admiral
We only recently have games spread digitally, it's impossible to know companies will drop support overtime with online purchased games, since it is new, for both PC and consoles. Time will tell.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Don't worry, they don't have Steam for the Xbox.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
This is almost a non-issue. Except in the case of sudden armageddon or nuclear annihilation, Gabe Newell has made it clear in the past that there is a killswitch that will disable DRM for all installed Steam titles should the service ever be closed down.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
Triple-B
Rear Admiral
I just hope that they release these killswitch-patches, before shutting down the support.
@ Shaggy: I don't like the procedure. You are buying a game at full price ( or even at a reduced price) and then you install your game to a cloud, where you are completly depenent from the service of steam and/or the publisher. It is like not really owning the game anymore. All you got is a few files on your hdd. Steam games give you licence to play the game, but not the possibility to own the game at its full. You can not even sell your game anymore, or borrow it to a friend, since it is linked to your account only.
Yeah, I know. There are some good things, like the auto-update stuff and the pointless achievements...
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Apologies in advance, but I have to rant about this one.
I was being facetious about the Xbox--my point was that it's such a silly thing to worry about when the reality is that if it's a PC game at all it won't be a PC game first or second. You can't make money on a PC title with a $30 million budget in 2011 (or 2012, as the case may be.)
But it's also a silly thing to worry about for so many other reasons. The whole "DRM" kerfluffle is this enormous obnoxious internet tempest-in-a-tea-pot thing that has somehow convinced people they should be having /less fun playing games/. Instead of just playing some cool game and having a good time we're supposed to be at each others throats ten months before it's even announced because it might possibly have whatever "DRM" is? That's crazy! And not just in the 'what an out there thing' sense. It's the kind of crazy that wouldn't even be socially acceptable if every other internet jerk weren't repeating it because whatever the 2011 version of Slashdot is told them to. It's the kind of crazy they should commit people over. Imagine you go to your doctor and you say hey doc, I met this beautiful young girl and we got to talking and it's amazing, she's wonderful and I'm in love and more than anything I want to marry her... but you know, then it hit me: someday she will age and may even die, so I'm just never going to see her again. In fact, can you give me some drugs that will keep me from feeling that kind of happiness ever again? The doctor should be within his rights to have you locked up--he certainly shouldn't form communities that stroke each others hair and tell themselves they're wonderful because they have these wholesale opinions about such /important/ things.
The next time someone tells you to care about "DRM" you should laugh in their face. Their enjoyment in life is somehow coming from the fact that they can tell you you should ENJOY A GAME LESS. They are either zombies repeating what they think are popular phrases or they're simple monsters, through and through.
You know why LOAF, consumate archivist, isn't worried about "DRM," even on a practical level? Because I can walk in to my bedroom and play any Wing Commander game ever released today, more than a decade after most of them were made. And that's not because they were some high minded example of open-sourced-free-as-in-bears-whatever-horseshit. It's because fans have kept them alive using their own talents IN SPITE of "DRM" that's a trillion trillion times worse than needing some ping from steam to play the game.
I play Wing Commander games that need consoles that haven't been manufactured since they were disasterous flops in 1995 and Wing Commander games that need graphics modes that monitors haven't supported in this /century/ with ease because there's a million billion people making sure that's possible. In the unlikely event that Valve goes out of business tomorrow and everyone who ever bought a game on Steam is suddenly unable to play it, how long do you think it's going to be before some HCl comes out with a little patch that lets you run your games again? It will be /hours/ at most.
Also I'm pretty sure any Wing Commander game would be released through "Origin" and not Steam.
I was being facetious about the Xbox--my point was that it's such a silly thing to worry about when the reality is that if it's a PC game at all it won't be a PC game first or second. You can't make money on a PC title with a $30 million budget in 2011 (or 2012, as the case may be.)
But it's also a silly thing to worry about for so many other reasons. The whole "DRM" kerfluffle is this enormous obnoxious internet tempest-in-a-tea-pot thing that has somehow convinced people they should be having /less fun playing games/. Instead of just playing some cool game and having a good time we're supposed to be at each others throats ten months before it's even announced because it might possibly have whatever "DRM" is? That's crazy! And not just in the 'what an out there thing' sense. It's the kind of crazy that wouldn't even be socially acceptable if every other internet jerk weren't repeating it because whatever the 2011 version of Slashdot is told them to. It's the kind of crazy they should commit people over. Imagine you go to your doctor and you say hey doc, I met this beautiful young girl and we got to talking and it's amazing, she's wonderful and I'm in love and more than anything I want to marry her... but you know, then it hit me: someday she will age and may even die, so I'm just never going to see her again. In fact, can you give me some drugs that will keep me from feeling that kind of happiness ever again? The doctor should be within his rights to have you locked up--he certainly shouldn't form communities that stroke each others hair and tell themselves they're wonderful because they have these wholesale opinions about such /important/ things.
The next time someone tells you to care about "DRM" you should laugh in their face. Their enjoyment in life is somehow coming from the fact that they can tell you you should ENJOY A GAME LESS. They are either zombies repeating what they think are popular phrases or they're simple monsters, through and through.
You know why LOAF, consumate archivist, isn't worried about "DRM," even on a practical level? Because I can walk in to my bedroom and play any Wing Commander game ever released today, more than a decade after most of them were made. And that's not because they were some high minded example of open-sourced-free-as-in-bears-whatever-horseshit. It's because fans have kept them alive using their own talents IN SPITE of "DRM" that's a trillion trillion times worse than needing some ping from steam to play the game.
I play Wing Commander games that need consoles that haven't been manufactured since they were disasterous flops in 1995 and Wing Commander games that need graphics modes that monitors haven't supported in this /century/ with ease because there's a million billion people making sure that's possible. In the unlikely event that Valve goes out of business tomorrow and everyone who ever bought a game on Steam is suddenly unable to play it, how long do you think it's going to be before some HCl comes out with a little patch that lets you run your games again? It will be /hours/ at most.
Also I'm pretty sure any Wing Commander game would be released through "Origin" and not Steam.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
I understand the appeal of DRM-less software. It means being free to play a game without having to prove to somebody time and time again that you are the same person who bought the game, in some sort of crazy "pirates are everywhere, so we bring the hammer down on everybody" sort of thing. People can feel like they're being considered guilty unless proven innocent, and that can be insulting.
DRM can be pretty annoying. I talked about in another thread how ridiculous the Wii's DRM system is; how Nintendo themselves have to authorize transferring any purchases from your old Wii to your new Wii. Some Ubisoft games are rendered unplayable (permanently paused) if the game suddenly loses communication with Ubisoft's DRM servers. If you take steps to bypass this DRM, *you* are considered criminal and in violation of the DMCA, even though you were only modifying software you paid for.
On the other hand, DRM done properly can be beneficial to the end user. Games are tied to your login credentials, so they can be moved around at any time on any computer, or even redownloaded as many times as you like. All that's required is for you to log in to Steam. Afterwards Steam can be set to offline mode. The XBox 360 DRM works in a similar way, except it's even better: it's also tied to the console, so you can play any game that's been purchased on your console, even if it was bought and downloaded by someone else (though only the purchaser could redownload it if it's deleted). Plus, if you get a new console, you can run Microsoft's online DRM transfer tool to move the console DRM to your new console. That's limited in how often you can do it, but there's no maximum number of times you can do it.
I'm a free speech, open source, DRM-free advocate for 12 years now, but here's what I care about more: video game developers being encouraged to make fun video games. DRM and open source concerns really come second to me in that regard. Joe Indie Developer makes a game, manages to get it listed on Steam, PSN, Android Market, App Store. It's a great game, but everywhere it's released it's full of DRM. Should we punish Joe by refusing to buy his game, just because it has DRM, and instead hand the market over to Shooter Game 2011 or Sports Game 2012? No, we should grit our teeth and bear it, because this industry needs more Joe Indie Developers, and more Gaia Industries, and more Mojangs.
The industry needs well thought out, wonderful, original games more than it needs a DRM revolution.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Sure, two truths:
- DRM can be annoying and given the option, I often prefer less of it.*
- Nothing I can ever say or do will impact companies' use of DRM in the slightest.
So should I spend my days yalping about it (and in the process pretend a largely invisible factor in HOW I PLAY VIDEO GAMES is a terrible injustice) or should I just, you know, play games?
* - That said, I'll pick the same game on Steam over 'DRM free' GOG** every time... because I trust Valve or some successor to still be around in ten years while I'm not entirely sure GOG won't be around next week.
** - I also don't understand how GOG is actually DRM-free, since I have to log in with my personal information to download my content.
And you're absolutely right: in spite all the pecularities of the 21st century Steam, Xbox and now iTunes are FANTASTIC improvements over everything that ever came before them. The fact that I can log in to them anywhere and get the digital content I've purchased is so cool! LOAF in 1994 would be awestruck. Want digital rights management? How bout the month that poor kid had to wait for a replacement every time one of his Pacific Strike disks went bad!
(And yeah, the Nintendo equivalent blows. But the problem isn't DRM so much as the fact that everything Nintendo has ever done online has been a case study in the worst way to do that particular thing online.)
That's an interesting thing to hear, because if you ask me on their own one at a time I love all these things. But I don't beyond reason blindly internet doing-this-makes-me-important love them. And I don't understand how we got to the point where everyone had to be that guy. All things being equal I would rather have free speech than not, I would rather have a game be open source than not, I would rather have a DRM-free game than not... but somehow the world corrupted the all things being equal qualifier and it just makes me angry every time I see it. Take this very scenario--I will never, ever, ever, ever play the free copy of TEEN AGENT that GOG gives you even though it's (gasp) DRM FREE (supposedly)... but if I have to pee in a cup and swear an oath of allegiance to God King Trip Hawkins to play Wing Commander VII then I'll do that without a moment's thought because it's freaking Wing Commander VII.
- DRM can be annoying and given the option, I often prefer less of it.*
- Nothing I can ever say or do will impact companies' use of DRM in the slightest.
So should I spend my days yalping about it (and in the process pretend a largely invisible factor in HOW I PLAY VIDEO GAMES is a terrible injustice) or should I just, you know, play games?
* - That said, I'll pick the same game on Steam over 'DRM free' GOG** every time... because I trust Valve or some successor to still be around in ten years while I'm not entirely sure GOG won't be around next week.
** - I also don't understand how GOG is actually DRM-free, since I have to log in with my personal information to download my content.
And you're absolutely right: in spite all the pecularities of the 21st century Steam, Xbox and now iTunes are FANTASTIC improvements over everything that ever came before them. The fact that I can log in to them anywhere and get the digital content I've purchased is so cool! LOAF in 1994 would be awestruck. Want digital rights management? How bout the month that poor kid had to wait for a replacement every time one of his Pacific Strike disks went bad!
(And yeah, the Nintendo equivalent blows. But the problem isn't DRM so much as the fact that everything Nintendo has ever done online has been a case study in the worst way to do that particular thing online.)
That's an interesting thing to hear, because if you ask me on their own one at a time I love all these things. But I don't beyond reason blindly internet doing-this-makes-me-important love them. And I don't understand how we got to the point where everyone had to be that guy. All things being equal I would rather have free speech than not, I would rather have a game be open source than not, I would rather have a DRM-free game than not... but somehow the world corrupted the all things being equal qualifier and it just makes me angry every time I see it. Take this very scenario--I will never, ever, ever, ever play the free copy of TEEN AGENT that GOG gives you even though it's (gasp) DRM FREE (supposedly)... but if I have to pee in a cup and swear an oath of allegiance to God King Trip Hawkins to play Wing Commander VII then I'll do that without a moment's thought because it's freaking Wing Commander VII.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
GOG is sort of interesting. Sure, there's some database that keeps track of which games your user account has purchased (or claimed for free), but the software is not encumbered with it. There's no check (constant or periodic) that attempts to prove or disprove that you're playing a stolen copy of Privateer. It's a system based on inherent trust versus inherent distrust.
Of course, there's either a certain level of naivety or acceptable risk concerning piracy of GOG software. I don't know if any specific statistics are available or even possible, but common sense states that GOG software would be more readily pirated than Steam games, just because there's no DRM to defeat. Of course, with a lack of numbers that could be entirely incorrect.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I know my Twitter search for "Wing Commander" after any of the releases has always returned a zillion people who are too awful to pay $5.99 posting the game for download.
Nomad Terror
Rear Admiral
That's stupid. Piracy is stupid.
Piracy of Wing Commander games is especially stupid, because I can't see it exactly helping GOG's chance at a future Wing Commander license.
Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
I like the Impulse system that Stardock use.
They have no copy protection at all on their software, but they release lots of micro updates, so if your copy of the game is unregistered (which a pirate copy cannot be) you can't get the updates and so can't play online or get bugs fixed.
Saying that, i've never really had a gripe with DRM anyway. Possibly I don't play enough games anymore.
They have no copy protection at all on their software, but they release lots of micro updates, so if your copy of the game is unregistered (which a pirate copy cannot be) you can't get the updates and so can't play online or get bugs fixed.
Saying that, i've never really had a gripe with DRM anyway. Possibly I don't play enough games anymore.
I hope that the game, if there realy is one in planing, will be released for the next console generation. As of now any port would hardly be capable of utilizing the actual potential of modern PCs.
And of DRM. I have not too much problems with it, as long as EA stays within the limits of the law with all the associated software it installs. The current EA releases created quite an outcry in most European countries as the EULA agreement and the Origins software that came with them were found to be lacking legaly in several ways. Including an unlawful limitation of user rights and a break of privacy laws. Simply put, its not acceptable to have your rights limited by a company, wheter its software or something else.
And of DRM. I have not too much problems with it, as long as EA stays within the limits of the law with all the associated software it installs. The current EA releases created quite an outcry in most European countries as the EULA agreement and the Origins software that came with them were found to be lacking legaly in several ways. Including an unlawful limitation of user rights and a break of privacy laws. Simply put, its not acceptable to have your rights limited by a company, wheter its software or something else.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
I feel like most European countries have bigger problems to deal with then angry nerds pretending there's any sort of fundamental right associated with how they play video games.
Id say that defending customer rights against corporations is quite important to us, whatever other problems we might have at the moment. Its not like these kind of fraudulent general business terms that are forced on customers are limited to the software market, either you defend your rights or you lose them in the long run if different "traditions" take hold. The respective terms are in no way associated with the gaming aspect, but with questions of privacy and general customer rights.
Fortunatly we dont have a case law system but a codified law system, but there are some case law influences in European law too. Generally speaking companies are held to aknowledge that they have to play by the law, they cant just create unlawful terms of usage. Wheter its a software company or a used car dealer that sells you a defunct car.
Flashpoint
Rear Admiral
This sort of a discussion is for a completely different thread, but a big thumbs up to this. #occupyvegasector
;-)
- Status