Capture de Fralthi. Doable?

[Starkey]

Originally posted by Quarto
Look, what it comes down to is that UE is designed for a very specific audience. It's designed for experienced players, and especially the ones that complained about SO being too easy. If you find it too hard... well, hey, that's what the difficulty settings are for .

I like the way UE is only fairly easy in Rookie level, and very tough from Veteran on. I think that´s one thing to carry on to UE2. In Ace level, on a mission where you have to defend the Dauntless from the Nephilim, I had to play it over and over until I had memorized the whole thing and knew in advance when and where did my ship had to be in order to kill those pesky bombers before they launched torpedoes and, if they did, it was thrilling to run desperately after them and shoot them down. In the alternative winning path (where I don´t capture the Fralthi), in the mission where the Dauntless was striked by the Ralari and the Fralthi the enemy left her with no bridge and only with three engines. Well, I (barely) managed to protect her later on and, on mission 8 (or 9) the Dauntless had only one vital item operating: the middle engine

So I say keep it tough, and give us lots of missions in UE2. I´ll be eternally grateful.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
Hehe, I was actually going to bring up X-Wing as an example of a highly popular game that does the same thing we do in mission 3 .

The part where it's stupidly hard and you get stuck was never praised. In fact, it was the main critic the game received from both in reviews and by the public.

Look, what it comes down to is that UE is designed for a very specific audience. It's designed for experienced players, and especially the ones that complained about SO being too easy. If you find it too hard... well, hey, that's what the difficulty settings are for .

Yeah, let's alienate potential new players. We are sooooo l33t... WCSO was doable on nightmare. It's supposed to be.

But one thing you should be thinking is realism. If a couple of light fighters could fend of 5 aliens massive onslaughts, then the rest of confed that was obliterated with excaliburs, thunderbolts, even vampires and panthers must suck really bad. If the UBW Epees and Scimis were such supreme machines of doom its amazing they were so afraid of the Confed on WCIV, with the same Hellcats and Thunderbolts...

As for the comments on my own skill as a player, how nice of you. I am making comments the balance and design of the missions, not complaining that I found it too hard. Initially, in fact, I just wanted to know if the mission was doable so I didn't try again uselessly. The truth is I dont't find the dogfighting on M3 harder then the last mission of WC2. But that's the FINAL mission, not the THIRD mission.

NOTE: I’m not whining about the Epee. The Epee is supposed to suck, so the game did just right.

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Delance


But one thing you should be thinking is realism.

Pffftt...Realism....
We are playing WC not Space Simulator...
I guess that any WC game was realistic but UE not...
I guess that any mission in WC3 specially the last one is very realistic
If you *sux* don´t complaint
If you *sux* and want to win the mission easily...cheat
If you *sux* and want to win the mission...replay it 11 times

 

[Starkey]

I agree with Delance. I think killing few, but tougher opponents is better than one Epee killing 20-30 enemies in a mission. But that´s not WC tradition, right?

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Ghost
Pffftt...Realism....
We are playing WC not Space Simulator...

WC is a space combat simulator. Check the box of Wing Commander. And even WC has a degree of internal realism: bombers are slow, fighters are fast.

I guess that any WC game was realistic but UE not...
I guess that any mission in WC3 specially the last one is very realistic

Yes, that's a perfect example of good mission design. In fact, they divided the last mission of WC3, so after you take off from the Victroy and you Destroy Kilrah, there are save positions. No need for repetitive re-playing. Also, they use 4 Excaliburs, the best fighter of the entire war, not Epees and Scimitars.

The only problem with that mission is that some people got confused about the correct moment to use the cloak device.

As for other WC games, they are coherent with their own set of rules. On the SO of WC2, it causes surprise that Blair would attempt to make the strike with only 2 Sabres. If anything goes, and any ship can take any fleet of any size, why even comment?

If you *sux* don´t complaint
If you *sux* and want to win the mission easily...cheat
If you *sux* and want to win the mission...replay it 11 times

If you are too immature to discuss game design and mission balance, be quiet and let the grown ups talk.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Starkey
I had to play it over and over until I had memorized the whole thing and knew in advance when and where did my ship had to be in order to kill those pesky bombers before they launched torpedoes and, if they did, it was thrilling to run desperately after them and shoot them down.

Oh, yes, good point. The major problem with X-Wing is that it was impossible to win the mission the first time. You had to memorize what would happen. Same problem with StarLancer.

On WC, you had to think, yes, but memorize, no.

I don't think anyone need to memorize anything on UE. It's after all, based on the Vision engine with a built-in anti-guessing solution. It's just a matter of going to the navigation screen and accessing the situation. The major hazard of this is pressing the "windows" key instead of alt, thus losing the mission because of graphics malfunction.

 

[Eder]

Originally posted by Delance
As for other WC games, they are coherent with their own set of rules. On the SO of WC2, it causes surprise that Blair would attempt to make the strike with only 2 Sabres. If anything goes, and any ship can take any fleet of any size, why even comment?

Two Sabres didn't look like enough to pull off that strike in WC2, just like a wing of Epees doesn't look like enough to pull off mission 3 in UE... that's the entire point of the damn thing.

In my interpretation of the way the UE story is told, throughout the *entire campaign* you're supposed to realize that the ships you're flying aren't enough to get the job done on the assignments you're getting... I think you're supposed to realize that you're taking that Epee out against 40 waves of nephilim ships which give you 2 seconds of rest for every 20 minutes of non-stop combat simply because you have no other freaking choice. It's absolutely coherent with the UE storyline, therefore, that you have to be *extremely* skilled to pull off almost all of those missions - you're flying the shittiest fighter on the universe, against the most dangerous enemies ever - the same guys who destroyed numerous state-of-the-art Confed fighters flown by the best pilots in the universe - and you want the average player to make it through all of the missions without having trouble with them? That would be very incoherent.

Of course, using the FMV and fiction to show the nephilim as defenseless peace-loving space cockroaches wasn't an option the UE team had... so what WERE their options? Either make the game a total incoherence between story/setting/whatever-you-call-it and gameplay like WCP and SO, or actually make the nephilim in the missions as dangerous as the "off-play" material showed them to be.

To sum it up, my point is: IMHO, UE was intentionally made much more difficult than WCP because, in WCP, most people's grandmothers could put an end to the terrible alien menace which was threatening all of mankind in about five minutes . THAT's bad game design. Showing coherence between the game's premise and the game's actual difficulty is NOT bad game design, even if it means newcomers to the game will have a hard time at first - because after replaying each mission until they get it right, and finally beating the game, they'll look back and say "Hell, those bugs really ARE giving mankind a run for its money - it wasn't just Confed propaganda like in WCP"

--Eder

 

[Aries]

well said and i agree completely

 

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Delance

The only problem with that mission is that some people got confused about the correct moment to use the cloak device.

.

No the problem is that the people don´t read the map.

 

[Quarto]

Originally posted by Delance
Yeah, let's alienate potential new players. We are sooooo l33t... WCSO was doable on nightmare. It's supposed to be.

Alienating potential new players is hardly an issue - there are no new players. There has been no new WC games since 1998, and new WC players are incredibly rare. Thus, we only need to cater to the hardcore fans, and they all tended to agree that SO was too easy.

But one thing you should be thinking is realism. If a couple of light fighters could fend of 5 aliens massive onslaughts, then the rest of confed that was obliterated with excaliburs, thunderbolts, even vampires and panthers must suck really bad. If the UBW Epees and Scimis were such supreme machines of doom its amazing they were so afraid of the Confed on WCIV, with the same Hellcats and Thunderbolts...

Well, these ships had not been upgraded to this level back in WC4, because a newly-established nation could hardly manage that in a few days. In 2673, they probably had been upgraded a bit by the various worlds that formed the Union, but, just like in 2681, their stats would have been inferior to top-of-the-line Confed craft. This is another thing that our mission design is supposed to reflect. Can you imagine mission 3 in a Vampire? You wouldn't even break a sweat. But with a Scim or an Epee, it's nearly impossible... that's realism .

As for the comments on my own skill as a player, how nice of you. I am making comments the balance and design of the missions, not complaining that I found it too hard.

It wasn't my intention to insult your skills as a player. My point was simply that players who do find the mission too hard can turn down the difficulty. And those who don't find it too hard seem to be (for the most part) grateful for the challenge.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Ghost
No the problem is that the people don´t read the map.

Correct, but how many times do you reapply look at the map before pressing "A"?

 

[Filler]

what's 'a' do?

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Quarto
Alienating potential new players is hardly an issue - there are no new players. There has been no new WC games since 1998, and new WC players are incredibly rare. Thus, we only need to cater to the hardcore fans, and they all tended to agree that SO was too easy.

Well, allright, if you are doing this for the hadcore fans... The parameters are different, yes.

Well, these ships had not been upgraded to this level back in WC4, because a newly-established nation could hardly manage that in a few days. In 2673, they probably had been upgraded a bit by the various worlds that formed the Union, but, just like in 2681, their stats would have been inferior to top-of-the-line Confed craft. This is another thing that our mission design is supposed to reflect. Can you imagine mission 3 in a Vampire? You wouldn't even break a sweat. But with a Scim or an Epee, it's nearly impossible... that's realism .

I have a question about the Banshee. It might just be me, of course, but I remember the lasers firing more rapdly on WC4... At least they were more useful. Just an impression, not sure about the numbers... I remember a non-stop flow of fire, not a quick burst every couple of seconds.

What I didn't like on M3 was that I pressed the [windows] key when I was about to finish it, and couldn't track any more torpedoes. I would prefer a harder mission in that the difficult part would right after take off, not after 10 minutes of so-so combat. As a hardcore player.

It wasn't my intention to insult your skills as a player. My point was simply that players who do find the mission too hard can turn down the difficulty. And those who don't find it too hard seem to be (for the most part) grateful for the challenge.

Actually, I would like to make a comment on this. I'm not sure of the names of the settings, so let's say Nightmare is 0. When I tried the Ralari mission with the Grathas on -1, I had a little trouble with the Salthi, so I switched to -2. Boy, it was even harder. So I just put it back on Nightmare and boom... Mission complete. It was easier. How strange. It somehow was easier on Nightmare than on any of the 2 easier settings I tried.
Is it just me or there's little difference on those difficulty settings?

It was very cool. I shoot all DFs on the Salthi pack, and got 2 of them! If I had a couple of maces there, I think I could do some massive damage.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Filler
what's 'a' do?

Autopilot, your best friend on WC.

 

[Delance]

Originally posted by Eder
It's absolutely coherent with the UE storyline, therefore, that you have to be *extremely* skilled to pull off almost all of those missions - you're flying the shittiest fighter on the universe, against the most dangerous enemies ever - the same guys who destroyed numerous state-of-the-art Confed fighters flown by the best pilots in the universe - and you want the average player to make it through all of the missions without having trouble with them? That would be very incoherent.

As long as it is skill, and not repetition/guessing.

A mission must be winnable on the first attempt by a good player. Replaying is cheating. You already know what is going to happen, so you have an unfair advantage.

X-Wing and similar games are flawed because it’s impossible to win the first time because you must “guess” what’s going to happen.

 

[Ghost]

Well Paladin tells you to engage the cloak before entering Kilrah, and IIRC to look in the map before the mission start.

 

[Delance]

Well I finished mission 3, and I'd like to comment on it. It was easier than I thought it would be. Actually I feared there would be more red mantas to attack the Fralthi, or some bugs on the arrival to the Dautless. But no.

It's just a matter of saving enought ammo. After all, with 2 refuels, it's 24 HS, 12 IRs, and 1200 (or is it 1500) rounds of stormfire, not to mention 6 DFs and 3 full packs of AB fuel. That is, if you are using the Bahsee.

Once you use the Nav System to track the Red Mantas, it's not that hard. I was speaking here without actually playing this mission enough... It's very long, but the two previous ones actually have harder dogfighting.

Quick question: Didn't the Bashee had the slide thing on WCIV? Is it to compensate from the fact that it's an updated version here with a better secondary weapon and much more missiles?

 

[Pedro]

LOL ok I wish you'd completed it first

Seriously though Eder is ABSOLUTLEY correct, all the way through the design of the game me and Quarto were discussing how menancing the Nephilim had appeared in the WCP manual and intro and how appaulingly tame they seemed in game, there just wasn't the fear.
If there was one thing that Unknown Enemy was supposed to add to the Prophecy timeline it was a strong sense of FEAR

 

[cff]

Originally posted by Delance
Oh, yes, good point. The major problem with X-Wing is that it was impossible to win the mission the first time. You had to memorize what would happen. Same problem with StarLancer.

Starlancer? Really? I only run into problems on 2 missions. The one where you have to blow the satellite dish and the "The Ion cannon is targetting us" thingy.
The rest was pretty much about as hard as WC IMHO.

Originally posted by Delance
It's just a matter of going to the navigation screen and accessing the situation. The major hazard of this is pressing the "windows" key instead of alt, thus losing the mission because of graphics malfunction.

That is why I refuse to use a microsoft keyboard. No Windows keys on any of my keyboards <g>

 

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by TC
Sure you can... you just need to learn to play in the little bit of maneuverability you've got...

I repeat, you cannot afford to SIT STILL. Jinking within the small cone of maneuverability you have is not quite "sitting still". To use the Epee torp, you need to approach from the edge of torp range and fly towards the target at like 400-560 kps without using your afterburners. You don't have time to sit around and take a pounding while waiting for lock like you can in heavy bombers.