Battlestar Galactica

[Primate]

DS9 goes as far to say that the Defiant was the first true 'warship' built by Starfleet. Interesting then how the Enterprise during the movie era was known as a Constitution-class Heavy Cruiser. Also, The Motion Picture referenced a 'Dreadnought Entente'. Heavy Cruiser and Dreadnought have a warship connotation to me.

I think that all ships before the Defiant were built wholly or, in the case of the Constitution class and all similar ships, partly as exploratory vessels. The mandate "to explore strange new worlds etc." seems to be a large part of Starfleet's purpose (it's not a purely military institution). Defiant was simply the first to be designed without that mission in mind. It has a small crew and few if any of them are dedicated to science and research, unlike all other classes of ship until then.

 

[Dragon1]

I wholly agree. I think my point is that any ship that is equipped with anti-matter torpedoes, irrespective of other roles, must be classed as a warship.

I had really only used the Defiant as an example of how the Federation appeared to change in political spectrum throughout the whole Star Trek era. I think also that long periods of peace or war would have something to do with it. Correct me if I am wrong, but after the Khitomer Accords were signed with the Klingons, there was only a small conflict with the Romulans in the early 24th century, and some other small actions against the Ferengi and other races. This would open the way for Starfleet to become more engaged in Scientific missions. An entire generation of SF officers would come out of this peaceful era.

After the discovery of the Borg and the Bajor wormhole, this would again shift the fleet to more militaristic duties. I think this is one of the things the entire franchise has demonstrated really well (even by changing the uniforms). On the domestic side of things, we start to see the 'socialist' aspects of the Federation breaking down (Star Trek Insurrection, DS9 season 5+) when real military threats present themselves.

Whole ships can't simply be replicated, they must be built in construction yards. These yards and the labor would cost something financially. This burden would have to transfer down to those that held the resources to begin with. Wether we are talking physical money, exchange credits, or whatever; something would have to be bartered. Those that held those resources would undoubtedly want an accounting and some responsibility for that spent. That would mean representation above and beyond those that don't have the initial resources. An economic class situtation would develop that would lead to less of a completely free democracy or even socialist-democracy and put more emphasis on those individuals, or for Federation, those member worlds that could afford the cost of fighting a horrific war against the Dominion.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Well, I think this is what I was getting at earlier: Star Trek fans looking for some greater continuity that doesn't necessarily exist.

I love Star Trek, I love Star Trek as a universe... but I have to recognize that there's something more organic to the TV episodes. Deep Space Nine isn't so much an evolution of The Next Generation's universe as it is a criticism of it.

 

[Dragon1]

Huh.....I never thought of it like that.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Oh, sure -- the big theme behind DS9 is that the squeaky clean universe in TNG doesn't really make sense on a practical level.

It's there on all sorts of levels. All the 'Section 31' stories stand out in my mind, plus the Homefront/Paradise Lost two parter... they're stories about how the Federation-as-utopia doesn't actually work in practice.

It's a big theme of the show, too, though -- Deep Space Nine is presented as more interesting than some 1980s-gray-on-gray starbase because it's full of gambling and virtual space hookers and so forth.

Even more directly than all that, though, think of that great Jake and Nog scene in 'In the Cards' where they make fun of Picard's "work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity" line from First Contact...

The other series', though, are reactions to their times rather than to eachother. The future presented in them is a more perfect future as it relates to the time they were created, not as it relates to each other internally. TOS has the dashing clean American military exploring space... and TNG throws that out entirely in favor of a sort of generic utopia because of the change in opinion about the military in the post-Vietnam era.

 

[maniac89]

Science-Fiction with broader appeal is fiction. You're grabbing a specific genre and saying you want to make it as generic and likeable as possible.

I can just see Verner Vinge's editor telling him to kill the hard science fiction he writes, because it cuts off his appeal in certain markets!




Do you have any clue how stupid you are right here? LOAF is telling you that your wanting to befriend the guy who kicked you in the nuts for your haircut last week, but who likes it this week is idiotic at best.

These are people who dump on the things we love. But now they agree with you, SO THEY MUST BE RIGHT.



The problem is that I want sci-fi geared at me, the sci-fi fan. Not Martha down the street who enjoys her knitting and Law and Order and that clever little Battlestar show.




Thats because we like to believe we're all very smart(And some of us are). Smarter than the jerkass douchebags who expound on how great the purile lowbrow shit that makes up 'popular culture' is. These are the people who jump from fad to fad because everyone else is.

We're better than that.




Hey doctor, this pamphlet says I'm not supposed to eat uranium. But I disagree!

You come into a thread where we're complaining about a specific kind of person, and manage to hit every single goddamn complaint we raised. Good job.





You're like the doctor who went to help black people instead of whites in the 50s. No, you really are! You're taking a risk and making a stand!





And yet, the same people raving about BSG(whose opinions matter to us now, right?) all loved 90210.



Said to the guy who goes to gay cowboy movies to see princess diaries girl topless.



Quiet descends upon the crowd, as we lean forward in our seats expectantly



I've been to a few vets offices, and I can tell you this cat has AIDS.

Should LOAF be agreeing with everyone no matter how wrong they are?



That isn't really how that works.




After letting you into his house, and letting you disagree with him, LOAF has a responsibilty to make sure he never offends you...because it's a *hosted* public forum?

We're not banning everyone who doesn't toe the party line, just the ones who end up being giant assholes about it.







Most of the people we're running off are assholes like you. Excluding the jerks is exactly what a moderator or administrator should be doing.

When you're done here, go tell the WCU people how horrible we were.



And I swear to god Sergeant, I'll write you up for a congressional medal of honor if we make it through this.



Get over yourself. Most posts like this that get people banned are left untouched. It's funnier that way.



Yeah, he'd be so disgusted that some of us are still this passionate about it. Goddamn us all to hell.

See you later, pal.

Who wrote that?? He's mean!

 

[AD]

Who wrote that?? He's mean!

Maniac89, your enthusiasm for Wing Commander is great, but you need to stop interjecting in threads without reading them first. While halmans post may be unnecessary, You've also skipped the context completely. BigsWickDagger deserved what he got. Not only that, the conversation had moved on. Why dredge this up again?

 

[TopGun]

Maybe his ban will teach him a thing or two

 

[Manic]

Probably not, most people who obtain temporary bans recieve another, more indefinite one rather quickly.

 

[Death]

That particular ban was for violating the 20 posts rule in the Word Game thread, not for any particular over-zealousness.

 

[Edx]

• The music. OMG, the music. It's a completely weird fusion of contradictory styles that works fantastically.

I havent seen the show, but I went and listened to a few clips of the soundtrack cd. I think it sounds brilliant! Not many TV shows get real orchestras these days, so its really nice to see that coming back with shows like Lost and Invasion.

Btw the fusion you are talking about is very cool and what Richard Gibbs did is a very interesting and original take on it, but its not really that new and has been done many times before.

Ed

 

[LeHah]

And with all the subtlty of a monkey throwing his own feces at the window, you've gone and made yourself out to be an ass.

 

[Edx]

And with all the subtlty of a monkey throwing his own feces at the window, you've gone and made yourself out to be an ass.

Who are you talking to?

 

[PeteyG]

I havent seen the show, but I went and listened to a few clips of the soundtrack cd. I think it sounds brilliant! Not many TV shows get real orchestras these days, so its really nice to see that coming back with shows like Lost and Invasion.

Btw the fusion you are talking about is very cool and what Richard Gibbs did is a very interesting and original take on it, but its not really that new and has been done many times before.

Ed

Bear Mccreary does the music for the series, actually. He was mostly the one responsible for the rhythm tracks in the miniseries, as I recall.

Perhaps we are thinking of different fusions. The series soundtrack only really makes use of traditional orchestral instruments very sparingly, and only in a few places (for money reasons, and for effect). That's not really what I'm talking about. The big thing for me is the crazy taiko drums during a lot of the action, especially the space battles; there are a few examples I can think of that go in that kind of direction a bit... but BSG takes it all the way. Then there's the very varied source of instruments and styles that, like the show itself (subtly and unsubtly), make references to various cultures. It's the 'mismatch' of styles between the screen and the music, and within the music itself, that gets me excited.

OK, I think I'm in music-fanboy mode right now... so I'll just keep going. One of the coolest things, I think, is that whoever makes the musical decisions takes "...and now for something completely different..." to heart. The Pegasus episode, for example, opened with an echoey soft-rock tune. And it was awesome. Dude, yes!

 

[TopGun]

That particular ban was for violating the 20 posts rule in the Word Game thread, not for any particular over-zealousness.

Yeah I've fallen victim to that rule, although I'm not sure if I was banned for it?

Anyway in that case I didin't know of the 20 posts rule, until I saw the notice on my reply that triggered it

 

[Raptor_Pilot]

I liked the new BSG. Not because of Sex Robots, or some sappy filler episodes, or Pres Roslyn, or the new Comm Adama.
I liked it because it actually shows the wear and tear that everything goes through. The show is not afraid to show the gritty reality of being stuck in space with no help, no reinforcements, and no spare parts.
There were alot of references to Star Trek in this thread and what a great show it was compaired to BSG. I am not denying that, for it's time ST was a great show. The number of fans alone proves it. I would like to point out that you can't compare BSG and ST at all.
In Star Trek, the ship is clean, the people are clean, everything is shiny and new. The inside of the Starship Enterprise looks like the surgical wing of a hospital, not a place to live in, but a place to stand around talking and looking at computer displays. The ship is supposed to be on an extended mission with the crew living on the ship for years at a time, but everything looks like it was bought yesterday night and taken out of the package this morning. Everything always works perfectly, the crew get along most of the time, and everyone shows all the proper courtesies for the men of rank. The only time things go wrong is when there is some interference with the equipment, (aka. The Sensors aren't working due to Ionic Interference that is scrambling the sensor arrays), or some mind altering virus that makes everyone paranoid, (but don't worry we'll just whip up a batch of a vaccine and everyone will be happy and respectful again!), and the only time you disagree with the man in charge is when he's breaking a regulation or two.
In BSG, The ships are down for maintenence, your best friend is actually the enemy, the smartest guy on the ship is insane, the XO is a drunk, and the senior pilot commits mutiny against his own father because he didn't agree with him.
I think BSG is a good show because theyre not afraid to show the future as run-down with faulty equipment, flawed people, and the hopeless situation where we are probably all gonna die before we even get halfway to Earth.

I'm not trying to beat up ST, but I'm just trying to point out that just because BSG is a different kind of Sci-Fi doesn't mean its bad Sci-Fi.

Anyway I watched it and thought it was great. And I hated 90210, and I never saw Melrose place. What those shows have to do with BSG is beyond me.

If someone could explain the supposed connection I'll politely ignore you

 

[ChrisReid]

In Star Trek, the ship is clean, the people are clean, everything is shiny and new. The inside of the Starship Enterprise looks like the surgical wing of a hospital, not a place to live in, but a place to stand around talking and looking at computer displays. The ship is supposed to be on an extended mission with the crew living on the ship for years at a time, but everything looks like it was bought yesterday night and taken out of the package this morning. Everything always works perfectly, the crew get along most of the time, and everyone shows all the proper courtesies for the men of rank. The only time things go wrong is when there is some interference with the equipment, (aka. The Sensors aren't working due to Ionic Interference that is scrambling the sensor arrays), or some mind altering virus that makes everyone paranoid, (but don't worry we'll just whip up a batch of a vaccine and everyone will be happy and respectful again!), and the only time you disagree with the man in charge is when he's breaking a regulation or two.

That only applies to the portions of TOS of TNG where the primary characters are exploring in relatively friendly space. All of Deep Space 9, Voyager and Enterprise are completely different from all the stuff you described above. Your post might make sense in 1992, but all the Star Trek since then has embraced the realities that you say are unique to Battlestar.

 

[TopGun]

That's a vaild point Chris

As you mentioned, Voyager is in most chances did show wear and tear. Plus they had to improvise. Take the Galley, it used to be Janeways private Mess, but Nelix turned it into a Galley as they wouldn't have the power to replicate all the food needed

 

[Raptor_Pilot]

I only meant TOS and TNG in my earlier post. As far as I'm concerned DS9 and Voyager are the best Trek ever made. Unfourtunately, TOS and TNG had the biggest fan base (millions and millions upon millions) and are held as the standard for the Trek Universe. All I was trying to say is BSG explores the wear and tear of constant struggle better than most Trek Episodes, and that is why I watch.

Even in Wing Commander (no offense) every time you come back from a mission with a ship shot up so bad it can barely fly, the next mission you always have a brand new ship to use. I know it's because its a game, but still...

As far as Cylons that look like humans, and the planets all looking the same, and there being Hummers and VW's, the show doesn't have the budget to build a "Caprica Car" or have fifty extras running around in robot costumes.
The shows exec's decided that that was beat to death in the original show (robot costumes) and wanted to move in a new direction that could fit the limited budget that was placed on them.

That's also why they don't have huge space battles in every episode.

If they had the budget they wanted (who ever does?) then there would be more actual robot costumed extras, and more epic battle scenes.

As far as the planets, the show is filmed in Vancouver. Not many Deserts, Jungles, and Ice packs in Vancouver to make different looking planets. (Budget again)

I don't think we should judge the show for reasons because of the limits imposed on it by the powers that be, we should judge it on what they have accomplished. I think they've done a good job (filleritis not withstanding).

EDIT: I still don't get the ER or Melrose Place Connection.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I only meant TOS and TNG in my earlier post. As far as I'm concerned DS9 and Voyager are the best Trek ever made. Unfourtunately, TOS and TNG had the biggest fan base (millions and millions upon millions) and are held as the standard for the Trek Universe. All I was trying to say is BSG explores the wear and tear of constant struggle better than most Trek Episodes, and that is why I watch.

So... you just don't *count* the parts that disprove your point? Clever.

... and we already pointed out that Battlestar Galactica doesn't do this at all. It simply acts like a soap opera in between going back to exactly the status quo -- and when it feels like it might be going back to ordinary too fast then it gives you a series of filler episodes. What Battlestar Galactica is good at is tricking you into thinking it's doing anything at all.

Even in Wing Commander (no offense) every time you come back from a mission with a ship shot up so bad it can barely fly, the next mission you always have a brand new ship to use. I know it's because its a game, but still...

... no, that's not because it's a game -- that's one of the reasons carriers are what they are. They serve to repair or replace crippled aircraft.

Wing Commander certainly has 'ongoing' damage on a realistic level for its analogue... the Intrepid's bridge stays blown away, the Midway takes damage that will stay with it through several missions and so forth.

As far as Cylons that look like humans, and the planets all looking the same, and there being Hummers and VW's, the show doesn't have the budget to build a "Caprica Car" or have fifty extras running around in robot costumes.

That's a load. Don't have the money to render a space car? DON'T SHOOT A SCENE WITH A CAR IN IT! There's never been a scene that requires the viewer see a car -- someone at the Battlestar Galactica production office wanted a free Hummer.

As far as the planets, the show is filmed in Vancouver. Not many Deserts, Jungles, and Ice packs in Vancouver to make different looking planets. (Budget again)

... and what magic series, pray tell, *doesn't* such a claim apply to? What show is shot at a special location that allows it access to *every climate*? The vast majority of Star Trek episodes were shot on sound stages -- being filmed in Vancouver certainly doesn't mean you can't put some creativity into your show.

EDIT: I still don't get the ER or Melrose Place Connection.

These are the types of shows Battlestar Galactica is mining for its interpersonal stories. The President has to deal with having cancer! The pilot-son doesn't respect his father! The XO is an alcoholic! They're generic drama storylines that happen to be in space here.