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[Bandit LOAF]

Criticalmass and Starkey are correct.

And to all the new people and unregistereds flocking to this debate - our interest is fundamentally different than whatever open source community you've come from... we care about Wing Commander's standing first and legal technicalities and world wide moral software issues second (or third or fourth or wherever you have to place such a thing to make clear that it is of no interest here).

 

[TC]

What we're talking about here is plain copyright (except for the potential "Privateer" trademark, which I considered abandoned since a decade why they have no grounds - but I digress).

There's no reason why it wouldn't be a valid trademark. It's still recognized as being linked to their company and it certainly hasn't entered the language as a generic term for this type of game. It also obviously isn't a good faith attempt at using the term for a different product, so one couldn't even argue that misinformation was not intended. Also, for the record, Privateer II Deluxe was released eight years ago. Any rereleases would be later than that.

There's also the fact that Wing Commander is also a trademark of Electronic Arts.

That copyright as it is today is completely unsuitable, even idiotic, when applied to media for a game released a decade ago (while giving the holder the copyright 70 years after its death - please, someone, tell me when do a soulless company "die"?) is a completely different matter.

Hence why their are stipulations that aren't related to the death of the original author...

I don't care to get into an argument about the legitimacy of copyright law and its application to different forms of media, but coming here and making statements in an authoritative tone while either not understanding or not properly thinking through the situation is certainly not helpful. Please refrain from this.

 

[Riley Pizt]

at least tell me what you suggest people should do.

I think the developers and file hosts should do nothing unless EA brings it up. By your own accounts, EA is well aware that your sites host fan-made mods and other material. The Privateer remake is simply one more in that long list.

If ever EA will think about doing something with their WC licenses, I'd like it to be the people in this community who are asked for their opinions and ideas.

You may like to think that's how game development works, but truth be told, no one outside of the development companies or not contracted by them will ever be solicited for advice or ideas on product development for legal reasons. In addition, given how badly EA treats its own employees, you shouldn't count on getting fair treatment at the hands of EA.

Or, to stay in your metaphor: I don't think it is wise to let the boat run as it is, claim it to be unsinkable

I don't claim the boat to be unsinkable, but it's only going to tip over if EA's corporate lawyers come calling. Bringing this mod to EA's attention as a possible infringement is only going to make that much more likely.

it will actually win support and an even bigger fanbase after the case is cleared.

LOL! Your naive optimism astounds me. The scenario you describe will only be true if EA allows the mod to continue. I wouldn't bet on that (although I certainly have no desire to see it happen).

 

[criticalmass]

Riley,

I don't even want to start discussing my naive optimism. Obviously you know everything about game development: Shut yourself in a closet, never ask anyone what they want ("focus group? what the heck's that?"), market a product, forget all about it, accidentally stumble upon a 1:1 clone using different technology but the same name, and just let people get on with it because, well, you had your fun and your company rules the gaming universe anyway. Maybe send a friendly mail refraining from your copyright. Who cares about a game that downloads 100.000 times in its first week anyway?

Hm. What's that slightly bitter taste in my mouth? Doesn't matter. I like this debate, especially for its hidden "get it before its gone" agenda.
But that's all good and proper in the WWW anyway - even if PR needs to be pulled because of legal issues, it will continue to be distributed on the shadier side of the net; and its glory will shine on forever on the noble goals of the WC community.

 

[TC]

You may like to think that's how game development works, but truth be told, no one outside of the development companies or not contracted by them will ever be solicited for advice or ideas on product development for legal reasons.

It's neat how incredibly wrong you are... I'm pretty sure everyone on the staff of this website has, at various points, had input, or assisted in the development of one Wing Commander product or another. You can find mentionings of peoples' names as thanks on the Prophecy map, in at least one book forward, in the credits of Prophecy GBA and in a couple of other places. You'll also find that several of the pages in the articles section of the CIC were, in fact, created, by request, to assist in various developments. EA and other Wing Commander related people have, and continue to, maintain good contact with the administration of this website.

Good relationships with people who have been involved with the games and supporting materials is why there are full copies of design documents, a few files that would otherwise be unavailable or unreleased, a summary of an unpublished Wing Commander novel, and other neat things available.

I don't claim the boat to be unsinkable, but it's only going to tip over if EA's corporate lawyers come calling. Bringing this mod to EA's attention as a possible infringement is only going to make that much more likely.

Despite whatever you may believe, reasonable people do exist. EA is very reasonable with respect to mods using their concepts. They don't seem to like full recreations of games, however, as shown by some of their reactions to Ultima remakes. This is likely why LOAF assumed that measures had already been taken. It's quite possible that actually talking to EA would get something accomplished. Since emails have already been recieved on the subject, hiding ones head in the sand is an even more idiotic plan than it would otherwise be.

As previously mentioned, through discussion with EA, the CIC has managed to host things that would otherwise not be legitimate. This is, hopefully, another one of those instances.

LOL! Your naive optimism astounds me. The scenario you describe will only be true if EA allows the mod to continue. I wouldn't bet on that (although I certainly have no desire to see it happen).

 

[hurleybird]

But that's all good and proper in the WWW anyway - even if PR needs to be pulled because of legal issues, it will continue to be distributed on the shadier side of the net; and its glory will shine on forever on the noble goals of the WC community.

Which would be a horrible thing for all wc fan projects. EA is a big company, and most big companies can be fairley paranoid. If the remake continued to go on strong underground, then EA might consider taking further actions to protect its intellecual property.

 

[spiritplumber]

Why would EA people stop a game nobody's making any money out of, and which keeps (or even expands) the fan base for a franchise they own, ensuring that people will remember the WC name if/when they decide to release new stuff? From a purely business sense it makes no sense for them to complain.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Why would EA people stop a game nobody's making any money out of, and which keeps (or even expands) the fan base for a franchise they own, ensuring that people will remember the WC name if/when they decide to release new stuff? From a purely business sense it makes no sense for them to complain.

Because EA doesn't live in happy fairy world where everyone can do whatever is most fun.

"Nobody's making any money out of it" means to them that *they* aren't making any money out of it -- a game that for all intents and purposes they paid to design and own lock, stock and monkey.

 

[criticalmass]

Is there still no reaction from the P:R staff?

I mean a release of a finished product is definitely an occasion to party, but how *offline* can you get?

Maybe it's time to change the title of this post into "RED Alert - Mortal Danger" or something...

 

[Riley Pizt]

I don't even want to start discussing my naive optimism...accidentally stumble upon a 1:1 clone using different technology but the same name, and just let people get on with it because, well, you had your fun and your company rules the gaming universe anyway. Maybe send a friendly mail refraining from your copyright. Who cares about a game that downloads 100.000 times in its first week anyway?

I don't know whether EA's legal department is going to do anything about this remake or not, but it is much better to wait and see than to contact it and force its hand. It is far more likely that if this release is brought to EA's attention it will take action to stop its further distribution.

 

[JKeefe]

Is there still no reaction from the P:R staff?

I have a feeling there is no way MamiyaOtaru or anyone else heavily involved in the coding is going to post in this thread (or, apparently, in any of the others...).

But I wish someone would communicate with LOAF so he can stop begging for an answer and/or we can stop this downward spiral of fear.

 

[Riley Pizt]

I'm pretty sure everyone on the staff of this website has, at various points, had input, or assisted in the development of one Wing Commander product or another. You can find mentionings of peoples' names as thanks on the Prophecy map, in at least one book forward, in the credits of Prophecy GBA and in a couple of other places.

Nowhere do I see any credit of implemented game design ideas or input for Wing Commander games from people who were not employed or contracted by the companies developing those games (which is what I stated in my previous post).

Despite whatever you may believe, reasonable people do exist...They don't seem to like full recreations of games, however, as shown by some of their reactions to Ultima remakes.

Well, genius, given that fact what do you think the company's reaction to this Privateer recreation will be? Why don't you go ask its legal department? I'm sure they're reasonable people. Just ask the current and former employees who are suing EA for unpaid overtime.

It's quite possible that actually talking to EA would get something accomplished.

It's much more likely that what will be accomplished is stopping the further distribution of the Privateer Remake. The game has already been publicly distributed. Asking EA's permission at this point would only open the door for EA to slam shut.

Since emails have already been recieved on the subject

From whom and stating what?

hiding ones head in the sand is an even more idiotic plan than it would otherwise be.

I am not advocating hiding one's head in the sand. That would mean ignoring any desist orders from EA. The smarter thing to do would be to keep the status quo until EA comes calling.

 

[hurleybird]

with the project having hundreds of thousands of downloads and so much publicity I'm sure EA will notice. Whether we inform EA or not, they will find out. Its better to go directly to EA ourselves, than for EA to go to us. It shows more responsibility that way.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Nowhere do I see any credit of implemented game design ideas or input for Wing Commander games from people who were not employed or contracted by the companies developing those games (which is what I stated in my previous post).

I don't know about TC, but I wrote the gameflow script for Prophecy GBA, and I did continuity editing on three novels.

We also worked heavily with Origin for promoting Secret Ops back in the day -- the developers never had a problem asking fans for help.

 

[Eder]

Nowhere do I see any credit of implemented game design ideas or input for Wing Commander games from people who were not employed or contracted by the companies developing those games (which is what I stated in my previous post).

Could that be an indicator of just how little you know of this community's relation with EA?

 

[scheherazade0xf]

well, i had my part in making PR (art and code), brad did stuff, and a number of things are borrowed from other mod teams (whose members have said things), so not all the developers are hiding.

the only ones not talking are mamiya and hellcat. PR started as mamiya's baby, and the vegastrike engine is hellcat's baby. really they have the most interest in what happens out of everyone (all the work that goes into making WCU/PR... it's massive).

and really, you think they would post here? it's a flame waiting to happen. everyone and their pet monkey has an opinion in this thread. posting here would serve nothing except to add fuel to people's fire. no one is hiding. they're just being sensible.

-scheherazade

 

[Silverain]

and really, you think they would post here? it's a flame waiting to happen. everyone and their pet monkey has an opinion in this thread. posting here would serve nothing except to add fuel to people's fire. no one is hiding. they're just being sensible.

-scheherazade

... and I wish to tender my apologies for prolonging this thread.

 

[Eder]

and really, you think they would post here? it's a flame waiting to happen. [...] no one is hiding. they're just being sensible.

As I understand it, LOAF just wanted someone to contact him about the subject... not necessarily in this thread (or anywhere public for that matter).

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Finally dealing with people via e-mail/IRC -- I'll close this thread now.