What is with the Nephilim?
- Thread starter Metras
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Yes.... *coughs hard*
Like I said 200 posts ago, What is with the Nephilim?
It is unfortuate that we haven't been given full disclosure (or even a good part of it) to Who, Why, and How. However, that may change if (hopefully it is a when) they release another Wing Commander game.
*sighs* I had no intention on having this post become the longest thread made in the CIC *chuckles*
Like I said 200 posts ago, What is with the Nephilim?
It is unfortuate that we haven't been given full disclosure (or even a good part of it) to Who, Why, and How. However, that may change if (hopefully it is a when) they release another Wing Commander game.
*sighs* I had no intention on having this post become the longest thread made in the CIC *chuckles*
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Knight
Spaceman
Sorry, got my thread/thread starters mixed up. LR/SW started the one about his love troubles, which held the record until recently, and correct me if I'm wrong, but was it Twister that started the "You might be a WC junkie if...", or he might have restarted it after it closed. Hell, I can't remember yesterday, let alone that far back
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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
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Well, the Nephilim are a cool topic because in some ways there isn't a right answer. We can come to a consensus (okay, we don't really do that, but I can dream) on the background, but since it is open ended, it leaves room for a lot of ideas and new theories. And shooting down mine gave Quarto a new hobby.
I'm glad they chose to re-open the post. Maybe we should next discuss why Blair really isn't... the greatest pilot in Space Forces history.
Thumbing through the ICIS I noticed he was only the 11th greatest Ace in Space forces history. Considering his 10 year exile, that ain't to shabby, though. He was #1 in Kilrathi Ace Kills. Maniac is 14th, overall.
[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 11, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 11, 2000).]
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I think Blair is better than Maniac. At least in the all around category. Maniac might be a better natural pilot, though. I'm just wondering who the guys ahead of Blair in the kill list are. I'm sure Space Forces history would predate the Kilrathi war, but I was under the impression most of Confed's wars before the Kilrathi were internal disputes. Those would have had to have been very bloody, for those kind of numbers.
I've also wondered how many beings Blair killed in his career. I did the math once back at the end of SO2 (when you could transfer all of your kills, begining with those from WC1, minus the last mission, to the next game.) Always wished they would have allowed you to save after the last mission. Back to the topic I mentioned, combining fighter kills and cap ship crews, it was quite a number. Don't remember it now, but it was well into the thousands.
[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 11, 2000).]
I've also wondered how many beings Blair killed in his career. I did the math once back at the end of SO2 (when you could transfer all of your kills, begining with those from WC1, minus the last mission, to the next game.) Always wished they would have allowed you to save after the last mission. Back to the topic I mentioned, combining fighter kills and cap ship crews, it was quite a number. Don't remember it now, but it was well into the thousands.
[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 11, 2000).]
Actually, Blair's kill list was technically in the Billions. He did destroy a planet full of civilians. Maniac and Blair I would say are almost equal in pure pilot skills (though Blair is prob a bit better). But Blair is a Far superior Wing Commander and is a much better commander overall.
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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
And even if you leave out Kilrah, you mustn't forget that a great many of those transports he downed were trooper transports. Apparently, that's a thousand Kilrathi each.
About the top ten... well, Forstchen did write something about Confed having a war with the Yan (whatever they are), didn't he? Though it might not have been Confed back then.
About the top ten... well, Forstchen did write something about Confed having a war with the Yan (whatever they are), didn't he? Though it might not have been Confed back then.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Do you know what 'technical' means? As in employing the specific methodology of something? Because the *technical* definition of kill score is the number enemy fighters and capital ships destroyed in air to air combat -- *not* the number of enemy killed. Vaktoth's don't count as two because they have two crew members, Bhanktara's don't as count as 5,000 because they have 5,000 crew members and planets don't count as whatever number you made up because they have whatever number you made up people on them.
On the subject of Blair and Maniac, I suggest you examine their Academy standings...
We can gain a rough estimate of Blair's kill score because we know that (as of pre-WCP) Maniac's is exactly 2,000 (ICIS Manual). Since Maniac is 14th and Blair is 13th, we can know only that it is above 2,000. The top 11 are *not* pre-war ace's, as has been assumed at this board thus far. They are pre-Carnival aces -- they scored all of their kills between 2634 and 2649... when shield technology was significantly limited and the Kilrathi were more prone to suicide attacks. This is stated fairly clearly in the WCP Guide.
There was a war with the Yan, 116 years before the Terran Confederation was formed.
On the subject of the Black Lance...
Firstoff, Quarto is incorrect in assuming that the concluding Wing Commander IV Senate debate was broadcast live to the entier Confederation. We are told in Secret Ops that sector-wide broadcasts are the widest possible -- and in the Wing Commander IV novel that it takes three days for the most urgent of news reports (ironically, an important Senate debate) to reach Nephele. We must further note that such broadcasts are made possible by the Terran Confederation's network of signal buoys and relay stations. I find it incredibly doubtful that the military would be stupid enough to build a relay network leading their top-secret research installations...
Now, the issue of the locations of the Lances. Sadly, SubCrid Death was incorrect in his initial information, leading to a series of impossible assumptions by all others present. There were four *wings* of Project craft -- one of which was destroyed at the Speradon Weapons Factory, one of which was captured onboard the Princeton and two of which accompanied the TCS Vesuvius to Sol. There were *no* Lances left at Axius to be hidden away.
Further, I find it hard to believe that I'm the only person who sees that such an action would be utterly impossible... the Lance is a carrier based fighter! How far would you expect to get with a stolen F-14? Even if I manage to land it at my rogue mile-long landing strip hiddin in Nevada (please apply generous amounts of sarcasm), I'm not going to keep it flying very long. Such a ship -- ignoring the fact that it would stick out like a sore thumb -- requires munitions and a team of workers to keep it flying. Recall, if you will, that every Confederation fighter must be torn apart and rebuilt for every 1,000 hours of flight time (End Run)!
I believe the misconception that anyone can take any fighter and do whatever they like with it stems from Privateer... please remember that although a Centurion may be 'hot stuff' compared to a Drayman, it's actually a light transport ship to the current top-of-the-line military craft. Further, ships belonging to Privateers are specifically designed for their missions...
Now, I will grant you that there are Project personel hidden... since Tolwyn specifically states as much in the Wing Commander IV novel -- but I will also note that Tolwyn *also* specifically states that they are not self sufficient and that The Project was a failure.
I feel I must address the issues of the various Project technologies...
Re: Flash Pack. As we see in Wing Commander IV itself (in the case of the Vesuvius class Heavy Fleet Carriers) the technology to render the flash pack useless *already* exists. It is more than safe to assume that all newly produced ships (post-WCIV) are composed of an alloy similar to that of the Vesuvius. The assumption that the flash pack could be adapated to work with this new alloy is utterly baseless...
Re: Cloaking Device. Two different anti-cloaking devices exist. In 2669 (Proving Grounds) the Confederation developed a weapon capable of nullifying the Kilrathi cloak... and in Wing Commander IV the Project's Lance mounts a device capable of 'seeing' cloaked fighters. As a fun side-note, a VDU cinematic was removed from Prophecy which explained that the Piranha's cloaking device had no effect on the Nephilim.
Re: Bipweapons. Doubtlessly, the research is stored by the Confederation... but it will certainly never, ever be used to produce such weapons. Such weapons are *primarily* a tool of public relations... the Kilrathi used them in hopes of inspiring fear -- but instead united the Confederation against an 'evil' enemy. The Confederation could not turn around and use the same weapons without tearing itself apart.
Finally, someone brought up the topic of the Confederation Senate's involvement in relation to the 'super-weapons' (T-Bomb, Behemoth, Project) versus their involvement in post-war military spending. Note two things...
1) Until 2673 the Confederation was under a state of martial law -- standard practices could be circumvented to support the war effort.
2) The Senate may well have approved the Behemoth, T-Bomb and Black Lance Project... without knowing it. While fighting the Kilrathi they would almost certainlyy be willing to give funds to classified military projects -- and significantly less likely to do so in the post-war era.
Regarding Axius... I do not believe it was destroyed -- for the simple reason that it is, according to Wilford, as close to invulnerable as possible
Various other important notes...
- Fighters do not have facilities for waste disposal... recall the Sabre the Tolwyns shared returning from the Landreich in Fleet Action. Presumably individual flight suits have such a capacity...
- The 'unused' Prophecy script turned out to be nothing but an elaborate piece of fan fiction... it had absolutely nothing to do with Prophecy.
- All of the bug ships, save possibly the Squid, are jump capable.
And finally, a hilarious quote.
So... you're saying that people can only compare things when they're exactly the same? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
(And you spelled Nephilim wrong).
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KillerWave
Spaceman
Shane said:
Even that this ocurred after the war, Blair was in a farm bettwen WC3 and WC4, and was an instructor after WC4. So he shouldnt got much kills (if any...) in that time, and Maniac was active during that time right?
Btw, this should sound stupid, but... wich rank is higher: Colonel or Captain? I'm asking because Eisen was the captain of the TCS Victory in WC3, when Blair was a colonel
serving under him. If i remmember correctly, in WC1 ( or it was WC2?), you where promoted to captain before going to colonel, and in the ranking system of the CIC, you need more posts to be a colonel than a captain, so Blair rank was superior to Eisen???
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Well, its classified... i mean, i could tell you, but then i have to kill you...
Killer Wave: They are in two different units. Blair is the Space Force (or Air force if you will) while eisen in the navy, and his rank is tech. higher. A Captain outranks even an admiral on his ship unless the admiral stands him down
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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
Knight
Spaceman
LOAF, what I ment by that, was how could you compare a ship like the Dragon, to a ship like the Vampire? Talk about unfair. If Confed did keep the Dragon design, <insert skepticalism (SP?) here>, do you think it would have gone unchanged from WCIV to WCP? I sure as hell hope Confed better maintains their fighter specifications than that.
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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
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Member of the LMG and hating it (Disgruntled Man)
Real heros wear SCBAs, not capes.--Me.
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Quarto
Unknown Enemy
LOAF: Well, that does put a new spin on things. In that case, you're right - clearly no Dragons survived (except the blueprints).
Oh, regarding the need for maintenance... I didn't say how long the Dragon would fly
. I agree, that it would very soon become just a pile of scrap. No that it matters now.
Right. Other than that, all I want to add to this debate is that I most definitely disagree with you regarding Axius. There is no such thing as invulnerable. Maybe it was built in such a way that it (almost) couldn't be destroyed from the outside... but the inside is a different story. They could either fill the whole damned thing with explosives and blow it to hell - or they could just dismantle it. If something was built, there will always be a way to destroy it.
Oh, regarding the need for maintenance... I didn't say how long the Dragon would fly
Right. Other than that, all I want to add to this debate is that I most definitely disagree with you regarding Axius. There is no such thing as invulnerable. Maybe it was built in such a way that it (almost) couldn't be destroyed from the outside... but the inside is a different story. They could either fill the whole damned thing with explosives and blow it to hell - or they could just dismantle it. If something was built, there will always be a way to destroy it.
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TC
SubCrid
Refer to your copy of Victory Streak for a handy dandy chart of rank compairsons. Captain (Navy) and Colonel (Space Force) are both of equal rank (O6). Unfourtunately you must also take into account the fact that the Captain of the ship is indeed in command of anything upon said ship (of course he can be ordered to do things by his direct superiors...). This can be easily seen in FA where Bear (at the time a Captain, O6) has expensive monitering equipment dumped out of the landing bay (sort of) against the wishes of an Admiral.
The Captain, however, does not have command over the fighters in any way. He can't technically order them to do anything (but if the captain were to ask the CAG/Wing Commander (depending) would normally do so...) The example I can think of right now is in False Colors, with lil'Tolwyn hating the fact that his Captain was treating his pilots (as flyers, not as dwellers upon his ship) as if they were his own. Now of course the captain has control over the pilots while in the ship, but he can't order any action, or lack of action related to flying.
Now I think I've confused myself... but there you go.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
The Captain, however, does not have command over the fighters in any way. He can't technically order them to do anything (but if the captain were to ask the CAG/Wing Commander (depending) would normally do so...) The example I can think of right now is in False Colors, with lil'Tolwyn hating the fact that his Captain was treating his pilots (as flyers, not as dwellers upon his ship) as if they were his own. Now of course the captain has control over the pilots while in the ship, but he can't order any action, or lack of action related to flying.
Now I think I've confused myself... but there you go.
TC
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
So we don't know wo the all time #1 ace in confed is? Somehow I think that's gonna be Casey in the future. So many bugs...
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The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.
Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares
I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara
[This message has been edited by No Regret (edited August 12, 2000).]
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The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.
Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares
I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara
[This message has been edited by No Regret (edited August 12, 2000).]
TC
SubCrid
no... it was the right thread
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
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