Real Life Mandarins

Originally posted by Ender
Just a quick poll in the framework of this thread, two questions, aye or nay:
1) Are you military age in the USA, and registered for selective service? (if you are over 18, a US citizen or resident alien and have not, then yu are a felon)
2) If it comes to a draft, will you evade?

AYE
NAY
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After reading today's news about the joy terrorists have over the Bali bombings, I would be willing to fight. As far as terrorists who get kicks from killing innocent people, I feel that those who are fighting should disintegrate. They should annihilate. They should maim, rape, pillage, slaughter and burn those who have no qualms about murder on such a grand scale as Richard Marcinko's novels, if what he's written is meant to be from real life. (One such incident had terrorists who were willing to spread a lethal anthrax, killing millions, maybe tens of millions).
 
I have a big flag poster with "These Colors Don't Run" under it, circa Sept. 2001, on my wall.

I'm a patriot, and I'm not scared to show it.

Every day I look around and thank my ancestors for moving to the US... People here take so much of what we have for granted; all they have to do is spend some time in some African country and they will have a new apprecation for the United States.. It makes me sick that 70% of the population doesn't vote, that so many people don't even care about who gets elected and how the country is run.

Your right, the flag does deserve to be inverted. We live in a time when our very government is threatened not by any one faction but by simple lack of participation - how many people my age will vote next election when we are all old enough? Less then half. Not only that, but they don't vote and then they complain about stuff later. If you don't exercise your right to vote and influence the election of our government, don't complain about it two years later...
 
I was thinking more along the line of "dismanteling the republic in order to save it," but Jumper'sopinion also works.

Re: Bali. I wouldn't be surprised if the Indonesian police broke out the thumbscrews for those "interviews," think about it, you're a terrorist who's just pulled off what you consider a major victory. This "victory" (yeah in this instance the word applied to this act gives me a bad taste in my mouth too, but bear with me, plz.) was achieved in majoer part due to secrecy and being able to trust those you worked with. Now the police pull you in for questioning and you not only admit to the act, but implicate your friends, family and co-workers. Just because they asked you to.
Right. It makes me think of HUAC with assault weapons.

Not that I'm defending these sick bastards but think of it this way. If the cops beat a confession out of an innocent person, the guy who really did it gets off. And, you can bet he'll do somehting else nasty in the future.
 
Yeah, that's probably true. Two things though.

1. Diffirent countries have diffirent police\suspect contact laws. In Russia, for example, Rodiney Kingsky is the rule rather than the exception.
2. Terrorists are generally willing to explain everything they do, or have done, either in an interview\shakedown or in the form of a letter or audio\video tape or some other means. Remember that kid who flew a plane into a building? Why did he leave a note explaining his loyalty to the Taliban? Maybe, like others who have left such messages, it gives them a feeling of immortality. Maybe it justifies their actions. (As if the murder on a scale that these terrorists have a hard on for could ever be justified). I don't remember ever looking at the mind of a terrorist when doing psychology or philosophy, but I do have some information on the terrorist mind. I could try and chase that down.
 
Yes, other countries have different laws governing criminal procedure. But this could get us into some topics that are such big, ugly cans of poisonous snakes that even I won't tread there.

Yes a terrorist act has no real impact for the group unless people know who they are supposed to be afraid of, but there is a difference between saying, "We did it," and "Oh my buddy Marty made the timers, Jeff made the bombs, his wife rented the truck, Dave got us the waiter uniforms..."

Terrorism is an irrational act carried out in a (with the exception of a guy on an Egged bus in a Semtex vest) fairly planned and rational manner. That's what makes it so effective at spreading fear. Thus, I find it difficult to believe that any terrorist would hamper his organization to the point where future strikes would be jepordized without a little "incentive."
 
I don't know about them saying who did what, as far as I know terrorists wouldn't implicate others. but they will take credit for such attacks. Richard Marcinko (the former SEAL Captain and author you may have read about when he was court martialed) even said how the IRA took credit for a gas explosion. And yes, terrorism may or may not be seen as rational (I feel that it is rational to them), but it is an effective method of spreading fear. And that is what it's all about. Just the same as the UN are trying to get Saddam Hussain to disarm, terrorist cells like the Taliban and Al Quada will scare and force others into believing Allah (whatever rocks your religious boat) and joining Jihad and holy war against the evil Empire of America, it's allies, and the entire Western world, and all those who betray the East by not believing in Allah and fighting the West. (Not my political views, on the contrary I'd probably turn a blind eye to those who show these terrorists what real terror is, but these cells have said as much).
 
Originally posted by Phillip Tanaka
Just the same as the UN are trying to get Saddam Hussain to disarm, terrorist cells like the Taliban and Al Quada will scare and force others into believing Allah (whatever rocks your religious boat) and joining Jihad and holy war against the evil Empire of America, it's allies, and the entire Western world, and all those who betray the East by not believing in Allah and fighting the West.
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tell me, what rock were u hiding under? a) taliban and terrorist cell go together like yoghurt and punch in face the taliban was the government in afghanistan and in many ways has a hell of a lot more of a legitimate right to rule the country than the country habberdasherie that the USA kindly helped set up.

secondly these "cells" that you so knowlegeably talk about, what you actually describe are terrorist organisations, a cell is a small section of said organisation who operate in a particular area.

finally none of the groups you mentioned have any desire to "convert us to islam" for the very simple reason that a) hussein doesnt believe
b) they believe u can only be BORN muslim
c)they are fighting against what they see as oppression by the USA/europe they have at no point claimed to target the entire western world, and i very much doubt they ever will

so what you actually said made no sense whatsoever, the current wave of terrorism isnt new, it isnt funny, its just some bearded guy tellin his muslim homies that we should kick american ass for some reason everyone forgot, without realising the entire history repeating itself and the fact that his MASSIVE oil empire is funded entirely by the states since they, after all, buy his oil.
 
Originally posted by Madman
so what you actually said made no sense whatsoever, the current wave of terrorism isnt new, it isnt funny, its just some bearded guy tellin his muslim homies that we should kick american ass for some reason everyone forgot, without realising the entire history repeating itself and the fact that his MASSIVE oil empire is funded entirely by the states since they, after all, buy his oil.
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The pot calling the kettle black.
 
Originally posted by Madman
tell me, what rock were u hiding under? a) taliban and terrorist cell go together like yoghurt and punch in face the taliban was the government in afghanistan and in many ways has a hell of a lot more of a legitimate right to rule the country than the country habberdasherie that the USA kindly helped set up.

secondly these "cells" that you so knowlegeably talk about, what you actually describe are terrorist organisations, a cell is a small section of said organisation who operate in a particular area.

finally none of the groups you mentioned have any desire to "convert us to islam" for the very simple reason that a) hussein doesnt believe
b) they believe u can only be BORN muslim
c)they are fighting against what they see as oppression by the USA/europe they have at no point claimed to target the entire western world, and i very much doubt they ever will

so what you actually said made no sense whatsoever, the current wave of terrorism isnt new, it isnt funny, its just some bearded guy tellin his muslim homies that we should kick american ass for some reason everyone forgot, without realising the entire history repeating itself and the fact that his MASSIVE oil empire is funded entirely by the states since they, after all, buy his oil.
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I'm going out for a few hours, but when I come back I'll be ready to discuss this issue in earnest. Before I do though I have a question. Now, don't get upset over this, but I have to ask. Do you support the Taliban at all?
 
given the stunning lack of evidence as to why the taliban is so "illegitimate" then i see no reason for there deposition, in fact i see in the very act of deposition an intriguing return to communism, i dont support al'quaeda because they have no warranted reason for their attacks, quoting the most recent "communique" from bin laden " you shall be bombed as we were bombed" which i feel is pretty damn fair, i aint bombed any muslims so he cant bomb me, but then, i didnt see the people in WTC flying planes into mosques, of course not, because bin laden is merely promoting mindless violence.
 
Good. I had to ask you see, because I have learnt long ago that it is impossible to debate with those who have fanantical beliefs, and the Taliban and those who support them, if nothing else, have fanantical beliefs. Now, for the points you've raised.

Originally posted by Madman
...the taliban was the government in afghanistan and in many ways has a hell of a lot more of a legitimate right to rule the country than the country habberdasherie that the USA kindly helped set up.
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You're talking about a puppet government by the US I believe. Well, yes, they did. But the Northern Alliance had been fighting to overthrow what they saw as a dictitorial rule. Television was not allowed, to stop freedom of speech I 'think', I'm not sure. Being clean shaven was outlawed. I think that America and it's allies saw themselves as no diffirent to overthrowing the Nazi regime in Germany.

Originally posted by Madman
secondly these "cells" that you so knowlegeably talk about, what you actually describe are terrorist organisations, a cell is a small section of said organisation who operate in a particular area.
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You will find that many acts that the Taliban take credit for are either committed by smaller cells or the cells that commit them are diffirent terrorist organisations with ties to the Al Quada.

Originally posted by Madman
finally none of the groups you mentioned have any desire to "convert us to islam" for the very simple reason that a) hussein doesnt believe
b) they believe u can only be BORN muslim
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Actually this isn't the case. One can become musilem. NBA basketball player Chris Jackson did it in the 90's, when he changed his name to Mahmmend Abdul-Rauf, and there are hundreds of cases like this.

Originally posted by Madman
c)they are fighting against what they see as oppression by the USA/europe they have at no point claimed to target the entire western world, and i very much doubt they ever will
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But the problem is they are indiscriminate. If they were only targetting America and it's allies, why did they attack Moscow, when Russia had not gone into supporting anti terrorism beyond their already established Spetznaz? (And where the Taliban would have gotten ex Soviet weaponry, I might add). Why hijack an Israili aircraft if they were waging war against the unholy alliance of the evil American Empire and the European colliation?

Originally posted by Madman
its just some bearded guy tellin his muslim homies that we should kick american ass...
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Without provocation, I might add.

Originally posted by Madman
...without realising the entire history repeating itself and the fact that his MASSIVE oil empire is funded entirely by the states since they, after all, buy his oil.
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Hence, the debate that the War on Terror is all about oil. If America and it's allies are waging war for oil, then they deserve what they get. But as we all saw, Dubya didn't give a rusty you-know-what about oil after September 11th. I'm sure he still doesn't.

Originally posted by Madman
given the stunning lack of evidence as to why the taliban is so "illegitimate" then i see no reason for there deposition,
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Let's see. There was their attacks on the US Embassies last decade, which if the shoe was on the other foot and Afghanistan's interests were attacked, they'd be fighting for hundreds of thousands of years until that race was wiped out. There was the attack on the USS Cole that killed 17. There was an attempted hijacking where the plane crashed in Pennsylvania, and oh yes, the suicide bombing of the Pentagon and those two buildings in the North East of America. All done without provocation. Plus, they had been flooding the world with drugs for years, in a bid to destroy it from the inside.

Originally posted by Madman
in fact i see in the very act of deposition an intriguing return to communism,
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Communism was the idea that everyone should be entitled to the same amount, wasn't it? Forgive my somewhat spotty knowledge on it, but it's an idea that I would follow if it worked (unfortunetly, it doesn't, as shown in the former Soviet Union), and frankly, I think baseball players complaining that they only get paid fifty million a year, if you'll excuse my language, is bullshit.

Originally posted by Madman
quoting the most recent "communique" from bin laden " you shall be bombed as we were bombed" which i feel is pretty damn fair,
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Except, the only time his country has been bombed was after the September 11 attacks. He virtually got off scot free for the attacks on the Embassies and the USS Cole. I remember him crying that we leave him alone. Well, he attacks thousands of innocent lives and intends to kill millions more. The world's leaders, if they were men...no, if they were human beings, can not loet something like that slide.

Originally posted by Madman
i aint bombed any muslims so he cant bomb me, but then, i didnt see the people in WTC flying planes into mosques, of course not, because bin laden is merely promoting mindless violence.
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EXACTLY! Terrorism is indiscriminate. Terrorists want the murder on a scale that has never been seen. Or, as Brookfield said in Richard Marcinko's novel Green Team, "The Jihad has already claimed three millions lives, and if it must, it will claim three million more."
 
why the hell would the taliban make claims to terrorist attacks? and why would they "destroy the world from the inside" with drugs, as far as i can tell, the stupid laws which get ever slacker are doing that fine themselves, and if you honestly believe that ol georgy has no personal and financial reasons for the random bombing of middle eastern governments then you must be insane.

the fact is that george either didnt or SHOULDNT have won the elections 2 years ago, and the september 11th attacks fell neatly into his palms, he couldnt have asked for a more suitable decoy for the failing US economy and his own governmental downfalls. a year later and hes still riding the storm. a successful bomb everything belonging to the red cross campaign (as happens everywhere the US bombs) in afghanistan and a desposition of a government which yes, was dictatorial and yes banned gillette ;) but at the end of the day hardly harmed anyone except for refusing to accept that bin laden was a criminal but then would the US accept that george W has in effect committed war crimes? or indeed that all american pilots need glasses and a quick chat pointing out that just cos theres a red cross on the map showing the target doesnt mean you should bomb the big green tent with the red cross on it.

the fact is that its in george W's interest to keep this war going as long as possible, and its a sad fact that as of yet the majority of americans havent clicked the 1984 similarities here.

and yes before people start, i agree that tony blair is equally misguided, although his reasoning is that we should stand by america. personally i think that he should crawl back out of george W's arse and stand before his country for what he is, a pathetic snivelling idiot who doesnt deserve to fill the one time home of greats like churchill, pitt (either), asquith or even maggie thatcher.

its an unfortunate fact that politics no longer has anything to do with what the public want, and is more about doing one thing every term that mite be a popular thing or more regularly that mite just suck up to the states a little bit more.

if this is what the western world is coming to then i for one would prefer to go join the communist party in russia, at least among all the poverty there is no sense of favouritism, noone cares about the petty squabbles of the states. maybe thats the true "land of the free" and sometimes im certain its full of more "hope and glory" than this belle isle
 
After reading your latest comments, all I can say is that while I have no problem with you voicing your opinions, I will say that I hope you are wrong. If Dubya moves past Iraq, that is if war happens in Iraq, then the whole world should question his actions. I will not deny that the whole thing scares me no end, and that Dubya is a war hungry President, but if you're right in that he will try and start a war with another country, and I hope you're not, then someone should impeech him, because to me moving on from Iraq to attack another country with newly discovered ties to the Taliban is an excuse the world should not swallow after Iraq.

While I'm being objective, and with apologies to those who support Dubya, I'd like to call your attention to one portrayal of the AntiChrist. Now the AntiChrist was said to pretend to be a man of good, be a powerful speaker, and have access to the world's weapons. He will use the media to gain billions of followers, and use forbidden science to further tighten his grip on the world. Does this sound like Dubya to you? My comments are, that Adolf Hitler was the closest we've seen to the AntiChrist. Some say he WAS the AntiChrist. But Bush being the AntiChrist is unlikely, for the AntiChrist is supposed to be European.
 
Quick note on casualties suffered by the US Navy:
USS Cole-hit by terrorist boat while on a port call, 17 dead. No retaliatory action taken. ("Liberal" president later accused of, "being soft on Terror [which is now capitalized for some odd reason].")
USS Stark-hit but Iraqi air to surface missile in 1988 while on patrol in the Persian Gulf during the Iran-Iraq war. 41 sailors killed. No retaliatory action taken. (Hawkish Republican president, but Iraq was our ally, oops, the pilot made a booboo, thinking a US Navy vessel-which at the time was probably sending out enough rf energy to give a guy two headed kids- belonged to Iran-which has no blue water navy!)

The antichrist bit, it was revealed several months ago that W has genetic links to the British crown. My response: Weren't we rid of them 200 years ago?

The war on terror=war to get Shrub's oil buddies even richer-oh yeah, most definitly.
 
Originally posted by Madman

if this is what the western world is coming to then i for one would prefer to go join the communist party in russia, at least among all the poverty there is no sense of favouritism, noone cares about the petty squabbles of the states. maybe thats the true "land of the free" and sometimes im certain its full of more "hope and glory" than this belle isle
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I'm only going to quote this last part, because I think it illustrates best what ridiculous ideas you have. If you were to be born in a communist country, they don't let you leave...ever. They don't let you travel around the country you're in, unless you're part of the "elite." They don't pay you real money, they pay money that you can only use in that country. They don't let you speak your mind. For instance if England was a communist country you'd be summarily executed for speaking out against Tony Blair. Why do you think there was a Berlin Wall, it wasn't to keep us out, it was to keep them in. But hey, if that's the kind of "freedom" you want, then go for it. Enjoy living in your hovel, with no heat, no food, and no say in how things get done.:rolleyes: The rest of us will enjoy the freedom that we have now. :) It ain't perfect but it's better than the alternative.
 
Socialism, and it's little bro communism have not existed in a pure form ever since mankind settled down and started building cities.

The Soviet Union was not real communism, it was corrupted by greed and by guys like Stalin and Beria. Cuba's probably the closest we've got, but then again, no elections.

Just remember that nations of a leftist persuasion certainly do not hold a monopoly on mass murder and repression. The circumstances that led people to support communistic regimes were often brutal and repressive in their own right, but since those governments let multinational corporations have the run of the place, nobody seems to care.
 
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