Real Life Mandarins

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Ender
Ultra right wing ppl are not anti-war, they are very pro-war.
It goes like this:

Yeah, that's who I meant. It was midnight and I had just some a weights workout. Didn't know my right from my left.

Originally posted by Ender
Extreme left- Anarchists (Black Block and others), Communism (Not an altogether bad thing, just unworkable IMHO)

I'd love it if Communism, or more accurately Marxism, was something that worked. And, if you've played Red Alert. having Zofia would be nice too.

Originally posted by Ender
Center- Moderates, people on the fence, taking a bit from both sides, the majority of people in any decent democracy.

I try to be that. Objective. Sitting on the fence. The Devil's advocate and personal mercenary, as I like to say.

Originally posted by Ender
(Beware generalisations in the above)

Oh that's great advice, and something that, unfortunetly, many people forget by accident or design in their arguements.

Originally posted by Ender
No, no problem, you don't have to ask me. (Or anyone else for that matter.) Just please don't let your emotions run away with you and ruin the point. (Yeah I know, I've done that.)

Yeah, I have too. It's hard not to, as we have seen. I think I do a lot better job of it than I used to.

Originally posted by Ender
I believe I know the groups you have in mind, and I'm not a fan either. I think it gives activism a bad name, brings down the wrath of the authorities on others who don't deserve it, and generally pisses off people who may have supported the cause.

Yeah, that's pretty much the sort of people I had in mind. The Sociallist Alliance is the name they give themselves, the people I know of. If you haven't heard of them, well, think of the people who shit on the soldiers who fought in Vietnam.

Originally posted by Ender
I would prefer howeverm that you did some research and found out what some of these groups call themselves, and using those names. You'll learn more about their motivations, and avoid pushing the big red button of comparing activists with traitors who sold out humanity for personal gain.

I know quite a lot, actually. I have attended some of their anti war protests, and they are similar to the people you mentioned. The Socialist Alliance's motivations is peace by stopping action against terrorism, their main focus at the moment the averted war on Iraq. They claim it's all about oil and how that's their excuse for going to war. This has been debated to death I believe. They also think that countries should not detain people who come to this country illegally, and have actually attacked detention centres to break out these migrants.

Now, for the point I was going to make. I attended a Christmas parade with my neice which was very lovely, until there was a float protesting the war on Iraq, which as you know is not a threat at the moment with the weapons inspectors. I was disgusted, but made no move to make my feelings public. Sometime later, I was going over the script for Wing Commander and read how Tolwyn said how the Mandarins had gone from misguided pacisfism to passive treason to outright collaboration. And then yesterday I read in the paper that the group who were protesting war on Iraq had no reason to be in the parade, but they went and did it anyway. Now, there is no denying that these people are pacifists. So that you know, I was as big a pacifist as Evangelion's Maya Ibuki (a big one) before September 11. They do not want war on Iraq. I don't want war either, but I will support it if war has to take place. They do not want actions taken to stop terrorist acts. This view will probably get their heads kicked in, but I respect their right to free speach and would not be the one to do it. What concerns me, however, is when they take that next step. Burning of flags, violent protests, putting themselves in harms way, breaking out illegal immigrants.

 

[Ender]

I haven't heard of that particular group. Under the circumstances they may have been better off with a generic "Peace on Earth" float. It's seasonal after all. Not having seen the float, I'm not sure what to think, without background it's hard for me to determine whether or not you may be over-reacting. Since you seem to be fairly level headed, I'm leaning towards not, but I don't have enough info either way.

I have some suggestions for you:
First, I think a link to this group's website might help the discussion. Second, I'm kind of bugged by how you identify yur views with fictional characters. However valid the comparison might be, the writers for those characters got the ideas from somewhere. If you use the original source, that will make you more credible in other debates. I think it's fine here, and shows where a lot of people assimalate thier ideas from, but in other debates, you will find that people just won't take you as seriously.

You raised an interesting point that before 9/11 you had very different views than you have now. I'd like to know more about that. Why exactly did you change your mind, fear? Anger? Rightous indignation? I think it's important to understand why because many Americans have re-thought their outlook along similar lines.

And, thanks for asking, but that was hardly as inflamitory as I had originally thought. Post what you want, I'm content to let the mods decide if something's appropriate or not. If it pisses me off too much, I just won't read anymore. But don't let anyone tell you to shut up, just because they don't like what you say. It is your right, and your duty to speak your mind.

 

[Phillip Tanaka]

Originally posted by Ender
I haven't heard of that particular group. Under the circumstances they may have been better off with a generic "Peace on Earth" float. It's seasonal after all. Not having seen the float, I'm not sure what to think, without background it's hard for me to determine whether or not you may be over-reacting. Since you seem to be fairly level headed, I'm leaning towards not, but I don't have enough info either way.

Thanks. I can over react, believe me , but seriously I felt, well, what a message to put out to children, at Christmas. Other people feel the same way, but others still argue that Christmas is a time for peace on Earth and goodwill towards men. I can live with that. I just want to forget about politics at Christmas, or more specifically, at things such as Christmas parades and when I'm enjoying the spirit of Christmas. (Pun most certainly intended).

Originally posted by Ender
I have some suggestions for you:
First, I think a link to this group's website might help the discussion.

Well this seems to be their big web site. http://www.socialist-alliance.org/
There's also another one they told me about earlier in the years, when they were making a lot of noise. This one was basically full of conspiracies and how the world would end if Bush stayed in power. I threw that one away, disgusted, so comment on it really probably wouldn't be much good without the actual source.

Originally posted by Ender
Second, I'm kind of bugged by how you identify yur views with fictional characters. However valid the comparison might be, the writers for those characters got the ideas from somewhere. If you use the original source, that will make you more credible in other debates. I think it's fine here, and shows where a lot of people assimalate thier ideas from, but in other debates, you will find that people just won't take you as seriously.

Sure. I mean, I make those referrences because I know I can get away with it here. If I was writing something for, say, politics, or a proper discussion that I wish to put out across globally, I wouldn't do it. Not on your life. You could be the biggest egghead in history, but being flippent will make you fail.

Originally posted by Ender
You raised an interesting point that before 9/11 you had very different views than you have now. I'd like to know more about that. Why exactly did you change your mind, fear? Anger? Rightous indignation? I think it's important to understand why because many Americans have re-thought their outlook along similar lines.

Well, for the first half an hour I firmly believed it to be a stunt for a movie or a game. But after being able to grasp that this was happening, well, I thought of what had to be done. I could imagine tanks rolling through the streets, soldiers forming blockades, I actually thought there'd be full on war on the spot. I stayed up for hours that night (it happened about 11:00 PM here) informing everyone I could on what was happening. I had the TV going in the next room and was frantically looking up Internet resources as I listened to the radio. But getting back to your question as to why, I think it was all of those things you pointed out. After everything started to sink in, I felt that, yes, something had to be done otherwise there will be more attacks. And then to have Binladen gloat about achieving the murder of wives, children, families, on a scale that had never been achieved before, I felt like Blair, with Thrakhath. (Yeah, sorry, it's the best description I can think of). But certainly, I felt that we had to stop these terrorists from killing, and I felt that the means to do so, as well as the punishment of either death for those found guilty of murder or life inprisonment for those who have killed and would consider it an honor to die for Allah, to be justified. I still do.