Pardon my ignorance but....

[Bandit LOAF]

I'm confused here, how am I starting a fight.

Are you familiar with the concept of 'trolling'? Essentially, bringing up a topic knowing that there will be a violent reaction. I'm not accusing you of anything, but know now that the "movie versus game" issue is one of these topics -- it has been done to death dozens of times, and there has been an unspoken agreement *not* to keep arguing it.

Blair in the games is not a pilgrim.

Answer me this, then. How do we know that he is not a Pilgrim? Is there any scene in the games that would in any way imply that he is *not* a Pilgrim? I'm aware that you cannot prove a negative, so will give you a chance to do the opposite -- is there any scene in the games where Blair's religion is stated?

There are no pilgrims in the game.

There are no toilets in the game. Are you so incredibly anal that you honestly believe that just because something dosn't appear in the game means that it cannot exist?

Therefore the movie contridicts the most important canon of WC. The Games. Acadamy and the books don't contridict much, so they count, except in those instances where they contridict.

This statement is meaningless, as you have provided no reason why Pilgrims cannot exist in the game. If Academy can tell us that Archer served on the Tiger's Claw, why can't the movie tell us that Pilgrims exist? Nay, rather, I think you just don't like the movie.

This is how all multiple formats are done. The original format is Absolute canon (like the star wars movies for example). Books then are generally canon as long as they don't contridict the movies (star trek books contridict the series and movies regularly, so are not considered absolute canon.)

My good sir, you are mistaken. Star Wars and Star Trek have had their definitions of canon explicitly layed out by the owners of their respective copywrites -- as has Wing Commander. Each one is different.

[Delitia]

Ok, so the kilrathi can both be hairless and furry at the same time. the ships can be straight out of starlancer and not resemble WC game ships at all and be the same.

It has already been pointed out that the Kilrathi look different in every game, but I note further that the Kilrathi in the movie are not hairless -- they're just not as hairy as the ones in the games. Is it impossible to believe that a creature could be capable of both having and not having facial hair (to drive home the point, Kilrathi with little facial hair *do* appear in the games)? If it would help prove your point, I would be more than happy to shave off my beard...

Although I would like to go with the obligatory 4dfx card joke, I must note that most of the ships seen in the movie are *not* the same ships seen in the game.

Blair is a pilgrim yet for the entire run of the games no one feels that they have to mention it.

Amazing, no one ever talks about Blair's religion? Pray tell, do we ever hear about *any* of the characters discuss any such things in relation to any of themselves?

[Delitia]

Starlancer has been in the works since DA was formed pretty much. It has a very strong ww2 look and feel.

I must note that Starlancer was developed by the UK-based Warthog, not in-house at Digital Anvil's Austin studio -- where most of the movie's 3D work was done. I also note that a little-known gaming series called Wing Commander also has a 'very strong ww2 look and feel'... I wonder, if they tried to make a movie of Wing Commander, would it have a 'very strong ww2 look and feel'?

WC movie also was in the works from the beginning pretty much. It has a ww2 look and feel.

Ahh, I see! Thanks!

It was pretty much a mutual thing probably, but the point is that the WC movie does not have a WC game feel.

Now I don't see -- the game and the movie are both based on the concept of WW2 in space... so why aren't they the same? Rather, I think you're admitting that your personal distaste for the movie has come into play during your argument.

It does not look nor smell and barely acts like WC.

You're just being overly-verbose in the hopes that no one will realize you have no actual argument. Please, the movie didn't smell like Wing Commander? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

The differences in the feel of the games and the movies is almost as bad as the difference in Highlander 1 and 2.

And we all know Highlander 1 and 2 weren't supposed to be related to eachother!

I have no problem using my imagination,

Be very, very thankfull that I'm not one for taking the obvious joke.

it is just obvious that they are two completly seperate worlds.

Oh, here's the argument of the century -- It's obvious that I'm right and you're wrong! Oh dear, the bucket I keep under my chair to catch extra sarcasm is full...

The Blair of the computer games was not a stupid pilgrim.

To simplify my earlier request: prove it.

They did not fly around in carriers that looked exactly like subs and fired broadsides (which in space is a fairly stupid idea anyway). He did not battle hairless hamsters.

Oh, now you're just being mean. Remove that and you get a description of any early Wing Commander game. They *did* battle Kilrathi and they *did* fly around in WW2-esque ships.

If someone had written a fan fiction that had the EXACT same story as the movie, everyone would have laughed their butts off at it. Why?

Recall that new term I introduced you to above... trolling.

Because it has nothing to do with WC.

Oh, Vondoom, you're *so* right, Wing Commander has *nothing* to do with Wing Commander. And now I've got sarcasm all over this nice rug.

The writer of the WC movie did not want to copy the games but create a world based off of them.

Uhm, no, *you* didn't want to have to accept the fact that the movie told a perfectly adequate story in the Wing Commander universe and so wrote it off as being some sort of alternate-whatever. Don't put thoughts in the heads of others -- unless you've spoken with the writer of the Wing Commander movie.

The same way the writer of the X-men movie did not copy the comics but used elements of them to create something new. The X-men history is not any different because of the movie, the movie is a seperate entity that stands seperate from them. Same as the Batman movies. As should the WC movie.

But it's not.

In every game they look a bit differant, but they all had hair at least,

You're rather hung up on this hair thing... dare I make the obvious fetish joke? Rather, take a look at the guards in WC3's intro scene. Or several of the Kilrathi ace cards in the CCG. The moral of this story is that cats can shave, presumably.

and the pilgrims were humans who thought they were better than normals because of their abilities.

Oh, gee, I don't know anybody like that, do you? *cough*

They were not humans who thought the kilrathi would win so it would be best to side with them (Mandarins) or frontierspeople who have moved to the fringe of human space to start new colonies (border worlds).

And we *all* know that there are only two kinds of people in the universe -- Mandarins and Border Worlders. Oh, yuck, there's like a half-inch of standing sarcasm on the floor.

The reason Blair in WC2 was sent off to a nowhere post is becasue Towlyn thought he was a traitor and had made up the cloaking kilrathi ships because no one else had seen them.

Hey, you understood the introduction to Wing Commander 2! I'm so proud... you deserve a refreshing Coke(tm).

It had nothing to do with him being a Pilgrim. It would have been mentioned by many of the people who didn't trust you if he would have been. Someone would have used it as an insult.

Yes, I'm sure it's *very* legal to argue in a court that someone should be put to death because of their RELIGION! Sarcasm joke #4 goes here.

Its just weak to say that it could be when it is obvious that the movie was not intended to be ripped straight from the games but was meant to be an entity of its own, seperate from them.

Come now, don't resort to personal attacks.

Why doesn't Tolwyn mention it, or Jazz, no one feels like mentioning this important fact in any way shape or form.

Again, has the topc of religion ever entered into any discussion in Wing Commander?

And I said the books COULD be considered AS LONG AS they DID NOT CONTRIDICT the games. The WC3 and 4 novels are not canon since they are based off of the games, inspired by those specific games, they are not official history.

Provide examples or do not try to start fights. Simple?

This will be my last post on the topic since nothing is being resolved anyway.

YOU WON'T AGREEE WITH ME! OH BOO! BOOO!

This is a case of differing opinions and no one is getting theirs changed so we're just wasting space. I leave you to your opinions and myself to mine.

Actually, I'm rather excited by this thread... people who once violently disagreed have changed their minds. IT COULD HAPPEN TO YOU!

(Wait, no, I know you...)

(I wholly apologize for the sarcasm/bedpan thing. That was absolutely disgusting. I blame the fact that FX runs like 12 hours of M*A*S*H a day.)

 

[Mad Hatter]

Just one more arguement about hairless Kilrathi: I suppose you`ve noticed that Blair in the 1st and 2nd games doesn`t look like Blair in the later games, and the same thing goes for Maniac, Angel and... you get my point. Does that mean that WC3, 4 and P aren`t canon? I think not. I also would like to add that the WCM Kilrathi look more like the games` Kilrathi than WC1 Kilrathi do, so I think you can flush that arguement down the toilet.

 

[No Regret]

We can clearly establish to no party here will EVER change his opinion SO WHY DO WE KEEP YAPPING ABOUT THIS EVERY TIME! aaargh! can a glue gun be modified to shoot bullets? I want to end my misery.

------------------
The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.

Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares

I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara

 

[Dralthi5]

Hey, why not discuss it? It's not like there's an overflow of conversation here.

I fully agree with LOAF here for once. And I think FX should show more MASH, at least eighteen hours a day!

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Shane]

For what it is worth I do think it is a bit strange that no one mentions the Pilgrims at all in any of the games, and there is some overlap that does seem problematic. However, I haven't read the Movie novels (I have been looking for them but can't seem to find them at the bookstores here in the District, nor can I find the Confederation Handbook) so I really can't make a truly "informed" comment on that aspect of the argument. I would think that Maniac of all people might make a Pilgrim dig at Blair.

When it comes to the other novels, I will say that Vondoom is right, at least with an aspect of the Price of Freedom. The case that comes to mind is the relationship between Blair and Sosa. I don't think a realtionship between them was ever hinted at in the game (though they did seem close during the candle scene after Telemon). The game clearly had her hooking up with Catscratch. I can understand WCIII, where someone chose Flint over Rachel and had a minor problem with that in the novel, or the Kilrathi skip missles getting through and wiping out Flint's homeworld, which didn't happen when I played

. Still it helped explain the reason for COnfed pushing out a weapon like the Behemoth that was not ready to be deployed. It helped move the story along. The Sosa & Blair thing I didn't like and I didn't think was necessary, especially since it veered away from the game. I thought WCIV was great without a love interest for Blair. In fact, it was a nice change of pace.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 21, 2000).]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

To be fair, it's not really right to claim that you actually find it *strange* that no one mentions the Pilgrims in the games... the games were, after all, made years before the concept was introduced. We can't really gauge this issue until another game is released -- then we'll see whether or not the subject appears.

To touch on several of your specific examples...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Recall from the movie's story that Maniac was the one person Blair confided in regarding his Pilgrim heritage -- and that they are basically friends who get serious about competing with one another. Maniac just isn't the sort to reveal something like that about Blair as an insult...
<LI>To be fair, Blair and Sosa never actually have a 'relationship' (in that sense) in the novel -- there's just a lot of sexual tension between them...
<LI>Regarding your two WC3 'choice' examples, I feel I must note that both of these 'paths' are supported by later games... the destruction of Locanda is spoken of on the Kilrathi Saga calander and the Rachel descision is mentioned several times in the related WCP fiction.
</UL>

 

[Dralthi5]

Candle scene after Telamon? Damn, I really need to get the PC version!

Well, I must say, however, that the WC4 novel's a little iffy. When I play, Catscratch always defects with me and Vagabond if I choose to defect first, but both were killed when Blair destroyed the Lex in the novel.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[TC]

I also would like to add that the WCM Kilrathi look more like the games` Kilrathi than WC1 Kilrathi do

What the hell are you talking about???

AFAIK WC1 is a game... and therefore the Kilrathi in it are game Kilrathi, so how can game Kilrathi not look like game Kilrathi?

TC

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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.

 

[Vondoom]

It's been a while LOAF but isn't Sosa in Blair's room at the end of the book, waiting for him? That does go beyond sexual tension probably. WC4 was a strange book anyway. I enjoyed it, but while WC3 book took mission pathways through the book and made a dicision from them, WC4 came up with alot of stuff on its own. I must say the Manaic in the book rocked though. It was the most mature Maniac that we'd ever seen. Also got to see him being one of confed's greatest pilots.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[Wedge009]

I think it's unfair to compare the movie's Kilrathi with WC1/2's since the games weren't exactly film-quality standard. Besides, just check the poll for people's opinion on the Kilrathi appearances. And how difficult would it be to find actors who looked the same as the characters in WC1/2?

About the Pilgrims... well since the only WC stuff outside of the games I've been fortunate enough to play/read/see/whatever is the Academy TV, I guess I don't have an opinion. But as was mentioned before, there's no way they could mention anything of Blair's alleged Pilgrim background since it was only developed for the purposes of the movie. Wasn't it?

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Sosa *is* in Blair's room at the end of the game... and she tells him Wilford's appointed her as his Border Worlds liason.

Dralthi5... Blair destroyed the Lexington and killed his friends? What WCIV novel did *you* read

?

 

[Mad Hatter]

You all missed the point about what I said about the Kilrathi, so I`ll try and explain it in a way everyone, including TC, understands.
I have absolutely no problem with the way WC1 or WCM Kilrathi look. But, You would have to agree that the Kilrathi in WC1 look very different than the rest of the series` Kilrathi, IMO, even more than the Kilrathi in the movie. In WC1 they are slim and more or less the same height as humans are, plus, their faces look more like cat faces than lion faces. or to make things clearer, they look a lot like the Mrrshans in Master of Orion 1 (it`s the other way around, of course).
My whole point was to show that WCM Kilrathi are perfectly acceptable in appearence in the WC uinverse.

 

[Vondoom]

That's in the dark ending though, I wonder which ending, "hopeful" where Blair becomes a pilot trainer, or the "dark" where you follow Tolwyn's earlier path. It seems in Prophecy that you followed the latter but not sure.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[Shane]

To be fair, it's not really right to claim that you actually find it *strange* that no one mentions the Pilgrims in the games... the games were, after all, made years before the concept was introduced. We can't really gauge this issue until another game is released -- then we'll see whether or not the subject appears.

And that'll happen...

To touch on several of your specific examples...

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Recall from the movie's story that Maniac was the one person Blair confided in regarding his Pilgrim heritage -- and that they are basically friends who get serious about competing with one another. Maniac just isn't the sort to reveal something like that about Blair as an insult...

I don't know, he ripped the hell out of him for being Farmer Blair, gave him grief about his love life in WCIII (mainly due to jealousy), as someone else pointed out, he had a good old time with Blair when Hobbes became his true self. But as you point out these were made before the movie. Which, I think, is why somefans are unhappy with the movie. It added new elements which they didn't think were necessary for the movie, and which seemed to come out of the blue. However, there is anything that can be done about it (other than bitch and argue) if anything needs to be done about it. It might be nice to see them finish up the novels and tie the loose end up, but again, when will that happen?

<LI>To be fair, Blair and Sosa never actually have a 'relationship' (in that sense) in the novel -- there's just a lot of sexual tension between them...

Artistic license by Forstchen, I'm assuming. The hero has to have a love interest, etc. Still it is an example of the book and game being out of sync.

<LI>Regarding your two WC3 'choice' examples, I feel I must note that both of these 'paths' are supported by later games... the destruction of Locanda is spoken of on the Kilrathi Saga calander and the Rachel descision is mentioned several times in the related WCP fiction.
</UL>

I agree, and you'll note, I mentioned I thought I could see someone having a minor problem with it. What I should have went on to say was they would have a problem at the time the novel came out (when there was no other supporting evidence.), and even then only a minor problem at best. I liked the decision to have the book follow the losing path in Loconda (sort of hard to imagine Confed being in that much trouble if the Victory has nothing but successes, and it adds to the plot) I also like the choice of Rachel over Flint. I think she and Blair had more to build on than Flint and Blair did. I remember one of the old arguments used to be who was the best choice for Blair.

Which brings me to another wholly unrelated gripe. What is with Rachel? Granted we saw WCP from Casey POV, but I was miffed with Rachel and Blair for that matter. Paladin's note mentions he's glad to hear the two are getting along. However, she doesn't seem phased when he disappears the first time. I know that the game can't cover every detail of every crew member's life, but it would have been nice to see she still cared about Blair. Hell even having her mad at Casey for "losing" Blair and then an apology later. I could have also done without her flirting with Casey. Choosing between Finley and Stilleto should have been enough. Plus she's probably almost old enough to be his mother.

 

[No Regret]

she doesn't seem phased when he disappears the first time. I know that the game can't cover every detail of every crew member's life, but it would have been nice to see she still cared about Blair. Hell even having her mad at Casey for "losing" Blair and then an apology later.

Maybe she's glad she's rid of the old bastard

------------------
The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.

Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares

I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara

 

[Shane]

I'm a romantic at heart. I also believe you marry once and you marry for life, so you better be darn sure you've made the right decision. I know that puts me in the minority in a lot of places...

 

[Dralthi5]

LOAF: What WC4 novel did I read? Uh... Obviously not the same one you did. Sorry, it's been a while, but I know Vagabond didn't defect in the novel and he was basically in only one scene here, too.

Uh... When is Sosa in Blair's room during the game?

------------------
If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Wedge009]

I'll back you completely on that one Shane.

And I wish I could get my hands on some of these novels... though I think it's a bit strange for Blair and Sosa to hook up, Sosa seems different - and younger. That's why she was paired with Catscratch in the game (as well as giving an excuse for another mission decision)

 

[Vondoom]

There are tons of differences in the WC4 novel compared to the game. Right from the start straight on till the finish. Blair gets manhandled at the beginning where in the game you stand up to him and he leaves. At the end it takes both you an Maniac working together to take out seether.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

 

[Shane]

For the most part they are minor differences, or things I understand because they are there to help with the plot. One theme Frostchen built on in the novel that wasn't as clearly laid out in the game, was that Blair was getting old and his his "farming" experiment had gotten him out of shape, both physically and mentally. That's why Seether was able to take him in the bar. That scene was also there, I feel, to help better differentiate the GE folks, like Seether, from normal people, like Blair. Blair, who had great reflexes or he wouldn't have had the career he had, had never seen anyone with reflexes that fast and he wasn't sure even when he was at his prime if he could have come close. The age issue also comes up in regards to Sosa. Blair feels kinda like a dirty old man since Sosa is much younger than he is. I think Forstchen wanted to focus on that aging hero aspect, which is why he set up the Sosa Blair tension and why the problems with Seether, talk about him needing to lose some weight and other things occured. Also while the game would be less pleasing if you had to rely on another pilot to handle Seether, in the novel it is nice to see Blair and Maniac fighting together against a common enemy.

In the novel the Lex was not destroyed, but Blair did damage a launch bay which effectively took her out of the fight. In the game that was not an option. Would have been cool if it was though. Especially if it was a hidden option. That is Eisen doesn't offer it to you, but if you do it he tells you that was a clever strategy, the mission is a success and maybe it helps you later in the game somehow.

As someone mentioned Vagabond and Ctascratch were barely in the novel, the latter for the reason I already mentioned, Forstchen needed Sosa to help show how old Blair was, and Vagabond didn't have a huge part in the game (other than to help Maniac grow up a bit, anyone could have done the mission with Sosa) so he could be dropped from the novel without too much trouble. The novel for WCIV did stray quite a few more times than WCIII's did.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited August 23, 2000).]