Pardon my ignorance but....

Aha, further insight as to why LOAF dislikes Vondoom
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The classic "WC movie"-issue

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The time is near.
There are still quite a few days remaining.

Hail to the king, baby.
-Ash, housewares

I don't care for fame, power or money...
I just want to FIGHT!
-Sanosuke Sagara
 
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LOAF says:
We know that Tolwyn was in command of the Tiger's Claw during the end of Wing Commander 1 because this is when all but one of the Academy episodes take place.
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Just how did you arrive at that conclusion? The press release states that this is a "prequel".
 
Don't start fights, Vondoom, it doesn't suit a man of your stature.

Academy is, however, fairly similar to the original Wing Commander... they even used the same ship designs and such (hell, SWC couldn't do that). Check out the Academy Press Kit we posted a few days ago for some insights into the series...
 
I'm confused here, how am I starting a fight. Blair in the games is not a pilgrim. There are no pilgrims in the game. Therefore the movie contridicts the most important canon of WC. The Games. Acadamy and the books don't contridict much, so they count, except in those instances where they contridict. This is how all multiple formats are done. The original format is Absolute canon (like the star wars movies for example). Books then are generally canon as long as they don't contridict the movies (star trek books contridict the series and movies regularly, so are not considered absolute canon.) If you watch the WC movie it is obvious that it is not based in the Wing Commander games universe, but is based off of. A very important distinction.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

[This message has been edited by Vondoom (edited August 19, 2000).]
 
I read a peice of fan fiction last night which pieced the movie and games together almost flawlessly. Anyway, you just have to stretch your imagination a bit in order for it to work. I was arguing with LOAF over this a while back, saying you can't fit a square peg in a round hole, but, after thinking about it a bit... you can.
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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
 
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Ok, so the kilrathi can both be hairless and furry at the same time. the ships can be straight out of starlancer and not resemble WC game ships at all and be the same. Blair is a pilgrim yet for the entire run of the games no one feels that they have to mention it. The WC movie was inspired and loosely based off of the games but is a new entity. Just as WC Academy was but Academy was far more faithful to the source material. When deciding history, the source materiel (the Games) are always right and anything that contridicts that is disregarded.
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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.

[This message has been edited by Vondoom (edited August 19, 2000).]
 
Whoa, whoa! Let's get one thing straight right now, Vondoom!
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None of the ships in the WC Movie came from StarLancer. Vice versa, maybe.

...Unless of course, Chris Roberts has discovered the secret of time travel.
 
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Things barely need to be disregarded. Almost anything can be argued/explained away if you think about it enough.

TC

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CAG of the Blacklance HQ
"Canadian and proud of it"-TC
You are in no way entitled to any WC games, if you don't have them its your own damn fault.
 
Starlancer has been in the works since DA was formed pretty much. It has a very strong ww2 look and feel. WC movie also was in the works from the beginning pretty much. It has a ww2 look and feel. It was pretty much a mutual thing probably, but the point is that the WC movie does not have a WC game feel. It does not look nor smell and barely acts like WC. The differences in the feel of the games and the movies is almost as bad as the difference in Highlander 1 and 2.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
 
Like I said, Vondoom, you just have to use a little imagination.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
 
I have no problem using my imagination, it is just obvious that they are two completly seperate worlds. The Blair of the computer games was not a stupid pilgrim. They did not fly around in carriers that looked exactly like subs and fired broadsides (which in space is a fairly stupid idea anyway). He did not battle hairless hamsters. If someone had written a fan fiction that had the EXACT same story as the movie, everyone would have laughed their butts off at it. Why? Because it has nothing to do with WC. The writer of the WC movie did not want to copy the games but create a world based off of them. The same way the writer of the X-men movie did not copy the comics but used elements of them to create something new. The X-men history is not any different because of the movie, the movie is a seperate entity that stands seperate from them. Same as the Batman movies. As should the WC movie.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
 
I disagree, Vondoom. There are a lot of similarities between the movie and books and the games.
The way I see it, the Pilgrims and the society of mandarins have a lot in common. The name maybe different, but all in all their role in the WC univerese is practically the same. You could also find similarities between the Border Worlds and the Pilgrims. Of course the games never talk about them having special powers, but nothing about the powers is really official.
I am not saying Pilgrims are necessarily Mandarins or Border Worlders, but they could be part of them.
And another thing: Maybe part of the accusations about Blair being a traitor during WC2 were because he was a Pilgrim. I don`t see how anyone could accuse him of that if he weren`t.
 
And the Kilrathi look different in *every* single game they're in. Complaining about how something looks is really weak. Different media require differently looking objects/beings for the best result.
 
In every game they look a bit differant, but they all had hair at least, and the pilgrims were humans who thought they were better than normals because of their abilities. They were not humans who thought the kilrathi would win so it would be best to side with them (Mandarins) or frontierspeople who have moved to the fringe of human space to start new colonies (border worlds). The reason Blair in WC2 was sent off to a nowhere post is becasue Towlyn thought he was a traitor and had made up the cloaking kilrathi ships because no one else had seen them. It had nothing to do with him being a Pilgrim. It would have been mentioned by many of the people who didn't trust you if he would have been. Someone would have used it as an insult. Its just weak to say that it could be when it is obvious that the movie was not intended to be ripped straight from the games but was meant to be an entity of its own, seperate from them.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
 
***Originally posted by Vondoom:
Blair is a pilgrim yet for the entire run of the games no one feels that they have to mention it.***

Why should anyone mention it? Maybe Blair prefers to keep it a secret and dosen't talk about that with anyone that we didn't see in the movie. You should check out the Confederation Handbook and learn a little about the Pilgrims. If you do so, placing them in the WC universe should be much easier.

***When deciding history, the source materiel (the Games) are always right and anything that contridicts that is disregarded.***

Yet you say that the books are canon as long as they don't contradict the games. But since they do contradict, shouldn't they be disregarded too?
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And what about HOT and TPOF? Those two novels, especially the last one, contradict with the games they'r based on at least as much as the movie does.

***The Blair of the computer games was not a stupid pilgrim.***

How can you know that? Pilgrims look just like "normal" people. And it fits with a lot of the missions in WC2 where Blair gets send through jump points by himself.

***They did not fly around in carriers that looked exactly like subs and fired broadsides***

We haven't seen the WC1/WC2 ships fire any torps if I remember. Anyhow, the diffrences in ships are completly unimportant. Do you remember how much the capship design changed from WC2 to WC3? And why does the Fralthi from WC3 and Prophecy look so much different than the one in WC1?

***(which in space is a fairly stupid idea anyway).***

I completly disagree.
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***He did not battle hairless hamsters.***

Neither did he do it in the movie. Maybe you saw the Freespace movie instead of WC?

Anyhow, this is a very oooooold subject that has been discused to death hear and on AGWC. Let's just stop now before any searious fights start.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
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Why doesn't Tolwyn mention it, or Jazz, no one feels like mentioning this important fact in any way shape or form. And I said the books COULD be considered AS LONG AS they DID NOT CONTRIDICT the games. The WC3 and 4 novels are not canon since they are based off of the games, inspired by those specific games, they are not official history. This will be my last post on the topic since nothing is being resolved anyway. This is a case of differing opinions and no one is getting theirs changed so we're just wasting space. I leave you to your opinions and myself to mine.

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There is no God but myself. No destiny but what I deem for me. I walk my path and no others, for I am free.
 
***Originally posted by Vondoom:
and the pilgrims were humans who thought they were better than normals because of their abilities. They were not humans who thought the kilrathi would win so it would be best to side with them (Mandarins)***

And the Pilgrims wanted to destroy humnans, which would be a good reason for them to side with Kilrathi. It's perfectly possible that the Mandarins were Pilgrims.

***The reason Blair in WC2 was sent off to a nowhere post is becasue Towlyn thought he was a traitor and had made up the cloaking kilrathi ships because no one else had seen them. It had nothing to do with him being a Pilgrim.***

Blair's story wasn't really belivable, but there was nor real proof against him. Tolwyn might have been convinced of Blair's guilt, but the fact that he was a Pilgrim deepend his belief.

***It would have been mentioned by many of the people who didn't trust you if he would have been. Someone would have used it as an insult.***

Except that Blair has many times proved that he can be trusted. Besides did you witness Blair's entire life? We don't see him that much outside of the cockpit. Who knows, maybe he was insulted.
 
***Originally posted by Vondoom:
Why doesn't Tolwyn mention it, or Jazz, no one feels like mentioning this important fact in any way shape or form.***

Ask them, not me. Maybe they do mention it, but it's not shown to us.

***And I said the books COULD be considered AS LONG AS they DID NOT CONTRIDICT the games.***

Yes, I know. So why can't the movie be considered as long as it doesn't contradict?

***The WC3 and 4 novels are not canon since they are based off of the games, inspired by those specific games, they are not official history.***

That's complete BS. Those novels are canon. They tell as about hundreds of things that we don't witness in the games.

***This will be my last post on the topic since nothing is being resolved anyway. This is a case of differing opinions and no one is getting theirs changed so we're just wasting space. I leave you to your opinions and myself to mine. ***

Very well. But it's not only a case of different opinions. Like I said earlier, you should get to know some of the WC movie based literature. Find out more about the Pilgrims and other things, then your opinion can change.



[This message has been edited by Earthworm (edited August 20, 2000).]
 
Wow, Earthworm's back with his really, really long replies!
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Personally, the way I see it, Blair sort of purposely neglected his whole Pilgrim past after being traumatized by the whole Aristy Amisty debacle in Pilgrim Stars/Truth (although we'll never get to read the latter novel, unfortunately!), which is why he's yet again called Maverick and not Pilgrim in WC1. But that's just my opinion.

Perhaps the reason we never see any other Pilgrims subsequent to the movie/movie novels is that there's a catastrophe in Pilgrim Truth which illiminates all the Pilgrims save for Paladin and Blair. That's stretching it a bit, but, ya know...

The Batman/X-Men comparison is pretty weak, because there was decades of information to work off of, and it'd be hard to put the film in a specific timeframe, hence the non-canonical nature of those two films.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!
 
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