New Saga Rapier!

[LeHah]

On the contrary, it's pretty much on the same level, don't make yourself believe that this is the only dedicated fan community that exists.

Being on the internet for going on 13 years, I can safely say that this forum is a singular, solitary board that has far more strength than simple "dedication". There is no "same level" with the CIC; show me someone who thinks there is a board equal to this one, and I'll show you a fool on the internet.

Besides, most forums on the internet confuse "dedication" with "being an over-opinionated, undereducated jerk"

Does this mean that i will have to justify my personal aesthetic taste if i say for something that its ugly/pretty?

I believe the writing on the wall is that if you're not going to bother explaining your thoughts, then don't bother posting them.

 

[Thunderbolt]

The thing that amazes me is how such a large amount of useless dialogue spews from such a small issue that could have been so easily resolved. Ok so the original poster was a bit over-excited and obviously not familiar with the very conservative and formal nature of these forums (which I will agree are among the dedicated I've seen) and made an inappropriate comment.

However I would like to see the moderators at this forum defuse situations without having to refer to insults. Everyone has said and done stupid things from time to time and there are ways to reproach people that are a lot more productive than what has happend here. Geez people we're not curing cancer or anything. Just live life and put petty differences behind us.

On a better note great work on the Rapier - was always my favourite WC2 fighter

 

[LeHah]

I'm going to split your paragraph because it garners two seperate reactions.

However I would like to see the moderators at this forum defuse situations without having to refer to insults.

But you don't deny that they were correct in their insults? Just that they shouldn't have *said* them? I don't know about you - but I'd rather know when I'm being stupid and where someone stands than have to play dentist and pull teeth about any sort of topic.

Everyone has said and done stupid things from time to time and there are ways to reproach people that are a lot more productive than what has happend here.

I don't disagree with the first part of your statement - but its a *good thing* when someone corrects you when you're wrong (or simply being a jerk). This is how we learn what is appropriate and inappropriate and all we see here is nothing more than wounded pride from Ricochet and Spertallica.

It is very productive to help new members feel their way into the community. All are welcome but some find it daunting that we expect more from them than what the usual internet site asks of someone.

 

[Delance]

Here's a shot of the SWC Rapier in roughly the same posture as "Flight Ops" (poorly composed and lighted as this shot may be.)

Klavs's Rapier is somewhat sleeker and more rakish, and has a shorter wingspan, but it retains the more bulbous nose and overall more integrated design as compared to the WCII model.

Thanks for that pic, Bob. It'll be interesting to contrast all availabe Rapier II models. And I do like the new Arena Rapier. I guess my sig make that obvious.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

However I would like to see the moderators at this forum defuse situations without having to refer to insults.

There's that percieved authority again - I am not a moderator.

 

[Houkiboshi]

There's that percieved authority again - I am not a moderator.

20.000+ posts do make that impression

 

[Frosty]

On the contrary, it's pretty much on the same level, don't make yourself believe that this is the only dedicated fan community that exists...

You misunderstand - he was speaking to the quality of discussion, not the type.

A lot of people who failed to meet the intellectual benchmark around here have fallen by the wayside over the years, and many more will. We may not be the only fan community on the web, but we're certainly one of the most dedicated and exacting.

 

[LeHah]

A lot of people who failed to meet the intellectual benchmark around here have fallen by the wayside over the years, and many more will.

It should be said though - that if *I'm* still here after seven years, a person can certainly change, grow and eventually fit into the community.

Also - great avatar Frosty.

 

[Dundradal]

It should be said though - that if *I'm* still here after seven years, a person can certainly change, grow and eventually fit into the community.

Also - great avatar Frosty.

This community is one that is definitely open to redemeption. As another person who has been here for a while some of us take longer than others sometimes. But eventually everyone has a niche here for them.

If anything can be said of this thread hopefully it highlights the possibilities someone can have here if they take a few seconds to think before posting.

 

[Thunderbolt]

But you don't deny that they were correct in their insults? Just that they shouldn't have *said* them? I don't know about you - but I'd rather know when I'm being stupid and where someone stands than have to play dentist and pull teeth about any sort of topic.

I don't disagree with the first part of your statement - but its a *good thing* when someone corrects you when you're wrong (or simply being a jerk). This is how we learn what is appropriate and inappropriate and all we see here is nothing more than wounded pride from Ricochet and Spertallica.

I agree that a rebuke can be one of the best things someone can do for someone else if they've said/done something stupid. But I still stand by what I said in that there are better ways to deal with situations like this than insults. Instead of calling someone an idiot you could have said that was a stupid thing to say because it is disrepectful to the community and to Wing Commander etc... Its just putting more emphasis on what they said/did that was wrong rather than attacking the person. But thats just my opinion.

 

[Thunderbolt]

There's that percieved authority again - I am not a moderator.

Ok but you still carry more influence than most other people here
So I guess what I said should'nt be just directed at moderators but everyone.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

I agree that a rebuke can be one of the best things someone can do for someone else if they've said/done something stupid. But I still stand by what I said in that there are better ways to deal with situations like this than insults. Instead of calling someone an idiot you could have said that was a stupid thing to say because it is disrepectful to the community and to Wing Commander etc... Its just putting more emphasis on what they said/did that was wrong rather than attacking the person. But thats just my opinion.

Well, I suppose I actually agree with you. My feeling was that the explanation included in my post made clear exactly what the problem was. If the problem is that I called him an idiot instead of said he had done something idiotic, then I apologize.

Still, even in that light a lot of this seems more thunder than lightning - Kavok himself hasn't really complained about it, just others who've chosen to be offended in his place. That's not exactly right, is it?

As for the rest of you - I would caution against the kind of exceptionalism you're showing off. We do have a very good community, the best in the worldin my book... but I think simply stating that to new users demeans us all somewhat. If you want to explain what a great group this is, it *absolutely* has to be done through actions rather than self-annointed superlatives.

 

[McGruff]

Speaking of other online fan communities, I haven't explored any of them because in my opinion there is no game which can rival Wing Commander, so this is an honest question. Are there any out there that are comparable in quality, talent, and overall dedication to the CIC?? Even though I'm not speaking from experience from other sites, I always got the feeling that this place is special.

Ricochet/Kavok - as anyone who has been around here for awhile knows, I have been kicked around quite a bit for statements and opinions. Many times deservedly and a couple times not so much. Regardless of that, I've always stuck it out just because this is such a cool place - it is after all all about Wing Commander! Anyway, don't feel like everything you'r saying is falling on deaf ears.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Well, I suppose I actually agree with you. My feeling was that the explanation included in my post made clear exactly what the problem was. If the problem is that I called him an idiot instead of said he had done something idiotic, then I apologize.

Still, even in that light a lot of this seems more thunder than lightning - Kavok himself hasn't really complained about it, just others who've chosen to be offended in his place. That's not exactly right, is it?

Well I wouldn't ay that I'm offended and I'm not saying that anyone needs to apologize. But its easy to notice how things like this seem to blow up far more than what they should. I have seen similiar things like this happen on other threads here as well. So maybe its something that should be resolved. I don't want to see this community tear itself apart over such a small and insignificant issue. If I can speak up here to help improve the way people communicate with each other especially if someone says/does something that is disrespectful to other people than I will gladly do it.

This is one of - if not the best online community which has a large number of talented people working on a huge range of diverse and exciting projects. This forum brings all of these projects together hence why I hate to see people attacking each other here. Because it hurts the morale of not just the members but also the fan projects. And the projects keep these boards going. If issues like what we've seen on this thread can be solved or even better prevented through effective and fair communication than nobody can compain

 

[Ricochet]

^ I completely agree with the above mentioned.

It is not about rebuking someone, that's absolutely fine. It is that you're sort of ambassador of this community if you're a veteran member, you should make an example with your behavior. Or for that matter, any kind of member.

I know that Kavok didn't make any comments, but it is a matter of common courtesy. It might have happened to someone who would take a real offense.
It costs nothing to be polite in your critics.

That said, i'm glad to see that most of you are reasonable people, and understand my point of view.

I'm glad that i didn't post what i intended to post yesterday, but waited for more people to voice their opinion.(Not that it would be insulting, but it would probably stretch this debate without point)

I will just direct your attention for a sec: have it occurred to you that it might have been a 15 year old new WC fan, whose experience was ruined by impolite member? I'm not saying that's what happened, but that was also a possibility.

Isn't that the point of CIC in the first place: to bring WC fans together, not apart?

Speaking of other online fan communities, I haven't explored any of them because in my opinion there is no game which can rival Wing Commander, so this is an honest question. Are there any out there that are comparable in quality, talent, and overall dedication to the CIC??

There are some impressive star wars communities, and online beta games boards i know off, but this community is pretty unique in it's dedication and creativeness it puts out. I don't know of any community that makes so many fan mods and fan art... That's my experience at least, and i have visited quite a few boards in my time. Also i can't say i still have true grasp of things here, but this is my first expression. I guess you people have earned right to be... overzealous.

On the other hand, i just thought of this:
What will happen when Arena comes out and the board gets swarmed with teh n00bs, kids and everything?

 

[Dyret]

I will just direct your attention for a sec: have it occurred to you that it might have been a 15 year old new WC fan, whose experience was ruined by impolite member?

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Norway 15 year olds call eachother idiots and worse all the time.

On topic LOAF shouldn't have to apologize for calling someone what they're behaving like. All this moaning doesn't make you people look as good as you think.

 

[sheldo86]

I don't know about the rest of the world, but here in Norway 15 year olds call eachother idiots and worse all the time.

On topic LOAF shouldn't have to apologize for calling someone what they're behaving like. All this moaning doesn't make you people look as good as you think.

By the same token I would say that LOAFs behaviour equally does not reflect well upon him or the Wing commander community.
An in reference to LOAFs comments above: An apology is not an admission of guilt; legally it is an expression of empathy.
This thread was "dragged down" the moment LOAF harshly critiscised a member for making an emotional remark that compared art work of one party to that of another party. LOAF retaliated with an equally emotional outburst of his own, with words like "idiot" and "you deserve much more than this". LOAFs failure to apoligise in the same manner Kavok did highlighted his immaturity and ignorance towards the true issue.
LOAF then attempted to mount a defense under the guise: It's not what Kavok said but how he said it.
Disagreeing with someone’s point of view, their tone, language used or manner in which they express such a view is not justification to persecute them. It is nothing more than a ruse of an excuse to attempt to destroy an opinion that does not align with their own.
Perhaps LOAF should read back over his own posts in this thread (and many other threads) and evaluate the manner in which he has expressed himself. It would seem that a large number of people deem LOAF's responses to be inappropriate.
There is a diference between being well known and well respected LOAF.....

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Gentlemen, may I present the quintessential devil in these affairs.

As soon as the thread winds down - again - we have the same anonymous troll who revived it under the guise of feigned offense in the first place, the same no-post genius who assures us he holds no allegiances and has the purest of hearts towards the fandom... this time featuring an even clearer petty air of desparation.

Before they cart you off to bucket land, I offer you some sound medical advice - you should get that chip on your shoulder fixed, it's clearly deep enough that the marrow will become infected.

 

[LeHah]

(I had written something very long, and very exacting towards sheldo86 - but LOAF not only beat me to the punch but said it far better than I ever could, as usual.)

 

[Thunderbolt]

By the same token I would say that LOAFs behaviour equally does not reflect well upon him or the Wing commander community.
An in reference to LOAFs comments above: An apology is not an admission of guilt; legally it is an expression of empathy.
This thread was "dragged down" the moment LOAF harshly critiscised a member for making an emotional remark that compared art work of one party to that of another party. LOAF retaliated with an equally emotional outburst of his own, with words like "idiot" and "you deserve much more than this". LOAFs failure to apoligise in the same manner Kavok did highlighted his immaturity and ignorance towards the true issue.
LOAF then attempted to mount a defense under the guise: It's not what Kavok said but how he said it.
Disagreeing with someone’s point of view, their tone, language used or manner in which they express such a view is not justification to persecute them. It is nothing more than a ruse of an excuse to attempt to destroy an opinion that does not align with their own.
Perhaps LOAF should read back over his own posts in this thread (and many other threads) and evaluate the manner in which he has expressed himself. It would seem that a large number of people deem LOAF's responses to be inappropriate.
There is a diference between being well known and well respected LOAF.....

You know If I didn't come across in such a polite manner before in trying to resolve these issues in my posts above then I would be very tempted to call you an idiot. Hence I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say that.

However I'm going to be a lot more blunt here because maybe thats the only way I can get my point across. Kavok apologized which was the most wisest and sensible thing that anyone could do. LOAF also acknowleded above that there are better ways in future to communicate with people posting insenstive comments and even went as far as apologizing for calling Kavok an idiot.
I never asked him to apologize - I simply stated that Kavok probably got a bit over excited and said something a bit irresponsible. Reproaching someone for what they did rather then attacking the person would be a better way of handling such a situation in future. Unless of course that it is obvious that the person is continually and deliberately trying to cause trouble.

The matter was resolved and now you come back trying to ignite it again. You know that is really sad and does nothing to support what you are trying to do.