I would like to be the first person to express my grave reservations about

[LeHah]

Because I want Arena to be better.

Better than what, exactly? Hopefully, you don't mean "better than it looks", because the "don't judge a book by it's cover" axiom comes to mind.

Because I somehow hope one of the developers or EA people stumbles over this and steps forward to assure us that Arena is actually better or at least ensures that the successors to Arena will be better.

You're getting a little ahead of yourself here.

EA is very proud of the Wing Commander franchise. It was one of the biggest games of the 1990s and the fact that they're bringing it back is somehow a *bad* thing to you?

Because others have voiced the same concerns and probably feel well knowing they're not alone.

All offense intended, but since you haven't played it yet, what you just admitted to is nothing short of mob mentality. "Other people agree with me - I must be right!" is the same goose-stepping nonsense that lends it's self to lynchings and people brandishing pitchforks and torches.

Are my reasons for posting relevant to our reservations towards Arena in any form?

Absolutely, considering you're posting about Wing Commander in a Wing Commander forum with fans of Wing Commander.

 

[Steltek]

EA is very proud of the Wing Commander franchise. It was one of the biggest games of the 1990s and the fact that they're bringing it back is somehow a *bad* thing to you?

No, not the fact that they're bringing it back, the WAY they're bringing it back, again based on what we see so far. And about judging a book by its cover: How can you be so sure that the game will be all that great or appeal to WC fans?

 

[LeHah]

No, not the fact that they're bringing it back, the WAY they're bringing it back, again based on what we see so far. And about judging a book by its cover: How can you be so sure that the game will be all that great?

So, the fact that they're not bringing it back in the way you want it makes it wrong? Don't you consider that a little conceited?

How can you be so sure that the game will be all that great or appeal to WC fans?

The people who have played it have had very good reactions to the game. What more do you need?

 

[Deacan]

A few questions...

How many fanmade mods of Wing Commander exists? How many people downloaded mods like "Standof", "WC Saga" and on...

EA needs to "test" the market? Oh well, my dear...

Deacan

 

[remo]

All offense intended, but since you haven't played it yet, what you just admitted to is nothing short of mob mentality. "Other people agree with me - I must be right!" is the same goose-stepping nonsense that lends it's self to lynchings and people brandishing pitchforks and torches.

Wow, the vitriol in this thread is quite amusing. So now if we prefer traditional WC we're Nazis? Too funny, seriously didn't expect that attitude on a WC board.

I realize it's exciting to see a new game in the franchise, but that alone is not enough for some of us. We don't need to play it in order to see that it lacks many of the features that made Wing Commander a favorite for many of us.

It may or may not be a good game in its own right, but that's beside the point. WC was primarily a single player dogfight simulator/interactive movie, and those mechanics have been thrown completely out the window for Arena.

I may give this a whirl when it hits Xbox Live, but I'm not naive enough to think that it's going to lead to a rebirth of the franchise as we knew it. It simply won't.

 

[Quarto]

How many fanmade mods of Wing Commander exists? How many people downloaded mods like "Standof", "WC Saga" and on...

EA needs to "test" the market? Oh well, my dear...

I vaguely recall UE getting several thousand downloads. I don't know how many people downloaded Standoff - hopefully more, but it could have been less for all I know. Saga seems to be more successful in light of all their press coverage, but I doubt it gets that many people either - merely appearing on a coverdisk doesn't mean that everybody who buys the magazine in question will play it. So, hopefully Saga has crossed the 10,000 barrier, but it's doubtful they got much further than that.

And how many WC mods exist, you ask? Well, how many Half-Life mods exist? How many Oblivion mods exist? How many Quake or Unreal mods exist? The three or four WC mods that have been brought to comparison fade into insignificance compared with just about any other moddable game out there.

I mean, I really, really hope all those people who have downloaded our mods have enjoyed them... but regardless, all our efforts are fairly meaningless in the greater scheme of things. Because a mod getting a few thousand downloads is not a reason to finance a multi-million dollar game that you want to sell millions of copies.

So... yeah, EA does need to test the market.

 

[Howard Day]

and the rising star Howard Day, who has bent over backwards to make Pioneer everything that we hoped and more.

Whoa-ho-ho. All you've seen from us is VISUALS. Sure, we can talk a good game, but until you've played it, there's no basis in reality for any statements on way or another! When it comes right down to it, you should be much more skeptical of Pioneer than you ever should be about Arena. You've seen that game in motion, seen actual screenshots showing the interface and you have a pretty-much-carved-in-stone description of what the game is and how it will play. You have none of that from Pioneer.
You do have positive reviews and hands-on-experiences of Arena, something else you don't have from Pioneer.
So don't bring us into this discussion - we simply just don't compare in any way to Arena. It's an actual game....we have plans for a game. See the difference?

 

[Mav23]

And who said Howard couldn't take a complement?

 

[Quarto]

Wow, the vitriol in this thread is quite amusing. So now if we prefer traditional WC we're Nazis? Too funny, seriously didn't expect that attitude on a WC board.

Oh, don't mind LeHah, he's... just being LeHah .

However, he does speak for a lot of people here, in the sense that we have a really, really hard time understanding this kind of attitude. The franchise has been dead for nearly a decade - even if Arena isn't the game you're waiting for, how can you possibly not find this exciting? Two days ago, there was no reason to believe EA would ever develop any WC game - now the situation has changed, but you're not happy because it's not the game you want? I understand not being happy about Arena as such - but shouldn't you at least be overjoyed about the fact that the probability of ever seeing a full-size WC game has just gone up through the roof? Because, you know, two days ago it was pretty close to zero...

 

[Howard Day]

And who said Howard couldn't take a complement?

Yeah, that may have been a bit harsh. I just didn't like seeing our project being used as a justification for distrusting Arena.

 

[LeHah]

Wow, the vitriol in this thread is quite amusing. So now if we prefer traditional WC we're Nazis?

Goodwin's Law.

I realize it's exciting to see a new game in the franchise, but that alone is not enough for some of us. We don't need to play it in order to see that it lacks many of the features that made Wing Commander a favorite for many of us.

As a WC fan, you are part of a greater whole. The fact that there is a discerning minority of misenthropic pesimists does not undo the positive attitude of the board.

What you are doing is raining on the parade simply because it's the "internet thing to do". Pessimism without a foundation is generally willful ignorance. Saying you don't need to play it to know that it lacks is answered in my saying you're not a Wing Commander fan if you're saying this before playing the game.

It may or may not be a good game in its own right, but that's beside the point. WC was primarily a single player dogfight simulator/interactive movie, and those mechanics have been thrown completely out the window for Arena.

Which were thrown out the window for the cartoon, movie, CCG, Armada Campaign mode, several novels, toys, posters and various other tie-ins. You do not choose what is right and wrong for the whole.

I may give this a whirl when it hits Xbox Live, but I'm not naive enough to think that it's going to lead to a rebirth of the franchise as we knew it. It simply won't.

Way to make a statement and base it on absolutely nothing logical.

 

[Dundradal]

I can agree with having some reservations. So the game isn't what some of us expected, we can live with it. Any WC is better than no WC and who knows this game could possible open the doors for full blown WC games.

I'm not really a fan of this type of aracade game, but I'm willing to let it try and grow on me, and we just need to be open about it. I mean COME ON the first new WC game in a decade and the news is less than 24 hours old and people are already blasting it out into the same universe the Steltek live in.

I think this is the start of something new, as Coach Dikta loves to say, "Cowards live in the past."

 

[remo]

Oh, don't mind LeHah, he's... just being LeHah .
However, he does speak for a lot of people here, in the sense that we have a really, really hard time understanding this kind of attitude.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree -- I find it equally mystifying that diehard WC fans are embracing a new WC game that essentially controls like Pac-Man. Arena doesn't deserve blind support simply because it's a new Wing Commander game.

The franchise has been dead for nearly a decade - even if Arena isn't the game you're waiting for, how can you possibly not find this exciting?

Of course I was very happy, until I found out that it's a Wing Commander game in name only. I just don't see anything here that screams Wing Commander beyond some superficial trappings; I'm OK with arcade shooters, but that's not what WC is about.

I understand not being happy about Arena as such - but shouldn't you at least be overjoyed about the fact that the probability of ever seeing a full-size WC game has just gone up through the roof?

I'm clearly in the minority, but I don't see the correlation there. How would sales of a simple, casual Live Arcade space shooter justify developing a fully fledged flight sim? They're two entirely different genres. That's like saying that the success of Lego Star Wars will help get Tie Fighter 2 made.

 

[remo]

What you are doing is raining on the parade simply because it's the "internet thing to do". Pessimism without a foundation is generally willful ignorance. Saying you don't need to play it to know that it lacks is answered in my saying you're not a Wing Commander fan if you're saying this before playing the game.

So what's your point, that we shouldn't voice our concerns? I enjoyed Wing Commander because it was a 3D flight combat sim with the plot and pacing of a big budget Hollywood movie. I don't blindly consume anything and everything with a WC logo just for the sake of it. If that means I'm not a "fan" then so be it.

Way to make a statement and base it on absolutely nothing logical.

I guess time will tell.

 

[LeHah]

I find it equally mystifying that diehard WC fans are embracing a new WC game that essentially controls like Pac-Man.

Perhaps you'll take the hint at a later date that if the "hardcore" fans are celebrating this news, that its worthy of everyone's attention.

Arena doesn't deserve blind support simply because it's a new Wing Commander game.

Because... you don't like what you've seen? Have you played it yourself?

The people who have played it have said very good things about it, thus far. And your experience with Arena is... your own bitter attitude?

 

[Jesus]

Everyone says EA is just testing the waters. That is absolutely correct, and you should all be scared shitless.

Do you know what EA is testing the waters for?

EA wants to see if we, as WC fans, will fork over $400 just to follow the genre onto consoles (since apparently the Vista thing isn't gonna happen). EA wants to see if we'll forget that WC was a space sim (moreso than an arcade game at least) and buy the game even though it's an arcade game. If we'll forget that WC had depth and plot and character development and memorable scenarios and all that, and just care about mindlessly fragging our online opponents. You know what the single player looks like from the screenshots so far? Destroy X number of asteroids! What the hell kind of Wing Commander game is that?

EA does not care. They are testing the waters to see what they can get away with in terms of screwing over our favorite franchise. Maybe they thought that after ten years, we'd forget what WC was all about. Unluckily for them, this is not the case...to some degree. Apparently, a good deal of you are WILLING to forget. I'm looking at you LeHah. If this game was released on the Playstation store, you would have bought a PS3. If it was a racing game with the Wing Commander name, you would have praised it for staying so true in having the same ships. LeHah is one prime example of someone who is completely willing to let everything slide as long as they get new, official content. If there's anyone here who's trolling (although I fear I have delved into said realm myself) it seems to be LeHah. People voice their opinions, and LeHah seems to find every way to shut them down.

This is EXACTLY what EA wants out of us, ALL of us. Undying loyalty to a franchise that they have just royally screwed. You know why we're screwed now, don't you? If this testing of the water works, EA will stick with it. We will NEVER see a high quality Wing Commander game from EA again, because if Arena works, that's what we're going to be getting out of them. Battlefield is a good example, they found a gameplay system that works, and they stuck with it. The Sims saw a hundred expansion packs before it got a sequel. Making The Godfather for one console worked, so they continued to port it, and they're still doing so today. EA does not like change. You know why they're releasing Arena first? They want to see how low they can go before the fans riot, how little they can do to still make a profit off the WC name. If Arena fails, then yes, we'll see a better WC game, and EA will try something different, because they're forced to. EA will not miss a chance to cash in on so big a name, we've seen it before, and we'll see it again.

There is something we can do. We can say that we won't stand for something so shallow, and so disgraceful to the WC name. We can complain as a community, have that spread across the internet, make it KNOWN that there will NEVER be an "Arena 2" deceiving us into thinking there's a real new WC game from EA ever again. I was excited to see the post on Joystiq a few days ago, "New WC game?" But this is not WC. WC is not a 2d, simplistic, arcade console fragfest. WC is a 3d, heavily strategy oriented, epic, memorable and even deep flight simulator, and EA has proven that they don't care about any of that.

 

[Cardinal]

Overall, I'm fairly positive about the events of the last few days. EA is producing a new WC game, and that's something to be excited about. While I wasn't thrilled with the news, this is what I totally expected the next iteration of WC to be if it ever came out. I knew that EA would want a mostly-multiplayer game, and that they'd want it to be playable on the XBox, Wii, and/or PS3. Because of the latter, the size of game would be severely limited, therefore the file size wouldn't be a behemoth like WC3 (pun definitely intended). Sure enough, that's what we see here.

While I was a little unnerved to see the different camera style, it still looks like a game worth playing. I was a little surprised that they didn't keep with a first-person perspective, but I understood the change when I went to Gaia Industries' website (more on that later), and the game still looks pretty fun. Anyway, for the next few months, I've adopted a "wait-and-see" attitude. Right now, my feelings about the game hinge on two points:

1) "How good is Gaia Industries' other XBLA game?" - According to Gaia's website, they're also making a game called "Street Trace NYC". Even though the game background is completely different from WC (hoverboards instead of spaceships), I can't help but look at the screenshots and see some similarities to WC:Arena, such as camera placement, the map displays, and the way in which the weapons are used. I think ST:NYC should tell us a lot about how good WC:Arena will be.

2) "Will this game be ported to the PC?" - I'll say it right now: If this game is released on the PC, I would buy it in a heartbeat. I'm already saving up for a Vista-capable desktop for work-related reasons, so if they're able to port it using Live for Windows, I would be totally thrilled with the situation.
But if the game is only available for the XBox 360, I will almost definitely not buy it. I can't justify paying $450 to play just a single game, especially since I'm buying the desktop at the same time. And before anyone says it, I would not likely play a ton of games on XBLA; my gaming style has changed since the days of WCs past. EA mentions in their press release that WC:Arena delivers "10 minutes or 10 hours of space combat entertainment". Well, I'm probably going to fall closer to the former category. However, that wouldn't keep me from paying for a subscription through "Live for Windows" or whatever it if it's ported to the PC.

LOAF and Chris mentioned on #Wingnut last night that they sent out some questions to the developers: I'll be interested in seeing if the latter topic was mentioned.

 

[floundericiousMI]

I just had a realization...

LOAF is...giddy!

Personally, I agree with the criticisms of the chosen format... but at the same time, WC has been *dead* in EA's release schedule for so long that I'm positively bubbling at the thought of ANYTHING coming out.

WE, as the wingnut family, can do our bit by wading into the greater XB360/XBLA community and participating. If someone asks "why does such and such ship have that" provide a link back to the CIC and the previous games...offer up some memories for them of the missions that cemented you as a WC fan. Maybe point them to the expanded universe in the books, which are a light read.

I don't know that this will make me run out and buy an XBOX 360 (that's a hunk of cash!), but it'll make me keep a closer eye on prices ;-)

 

[Mav23]

Yeah, that may have been a bit harsh. I just didn't like seeing our project being used as a justification for distrusting Arena.

I understand, I was just giving you a hard time.

 

[Shere Khan]

How would sales of a simple, casual Live Arcade space shooter justify developing a fully fledged flight sim? They're two entirely different genres. That's like saying that the success of Lego Star Wars will help get Tie Fighter 2 made.

how do sales of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance justify making a new major FF for PS3? how does KOTOR justify SW Galaxies? oh ok, how does the success of Lego SW justify a new Tie Fighter (or, realistically, something more general, pilot-any-craft, like Battlefront)?

by making the audience continue to love and live in the setting. game franchises work like that. that's why SW games are still made, and WC games were not for a long time. let the universe live - and maybe we'll see a revival of space sim WC... let it die - and the next action space sim will be set in some other, more well-known universe. Egosoft's? Joss Whedon's? Battlestar Galactica? any other.

the name should be spoken. the audience should be fed. so it's like this: either we tolerate Arena... or we let WC fossilize like Zork, Elite and Loom.