I would like to be the first person to express my grave reservations about

[Steltek]

Yeah yeah, I promised to shut up, and I will eventually, don't despair...

A) consoles are the big thing now.
B) the Xbox 360 is the leader in the current gen.

Both very true.

C) Making a new full sized WC game would cost a LOT of money.

It wouldn't have to be the full size WC game we know (at least not for me). As mentioned in the other thread: A Darkstar One like game would shut me up.

D) There are no big games like WC on the market, hence, the genre is an unknown variable.

Darkstar One, isn't as big of course, but it is in the same market. Developer Ascaron seems to have done quite well with it, and you can hardly say they have anywhere near the budget that EA has.

1) charting the waters and gauging how much interest the WC brand can generate, and how much money they could possibly make with it.
2) raising the WC flag and presenting the brand and franchise to the new generation of players.

The catch is that they're doing that with a game that isn't like the games we (I?) want to see, so the success that this game makes doesn't necessarily translate into the success of the one that follows. As a result of that it could boil down to:

1. Arena flops
2. Arena succeeds, the game after Arena is the WC title we've been craving for but flops. (maybe even because of the same reason that I'm ranting about Arena: the new followers now making the switch because it's too different from what they know)
3. Arena succeeds, the game after Arena is another Arena and makes more money, lather rinse repeat.
4. Arena succeeds, the game after Arena is the WC title we've been craving for and is a hit.

What we fear is 1, 2 and 3, all translating into the death of the series as we know it.

It is plain for everyone with half a brain [...]

Sigh ... More talking down onto people....

Yes, I'm excited Wing Commander is moving at all and hoping for case 4 above.

 

[LeHah]

It wouldn't have to be the full size WC game we know.

You mean like Arena?

 

[Steltek]

No, I mean like Darkstar One, Secret Ops, Tachyon: The Fringe... all single player story driven games close to what Wing Commander is without the hefty FMV price tag.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

There's a human element you're not considering. Pedro can back me up here when I say that at an *individual* level there are a *lot* of people at (and around) EA who want to do a new Wing Commander game in the classic style. The generation of people who's building games today is the one who grew up idolizing WC. I've been involved with two such projects in the past, which both died essentially because people higher up the ladder couldn't risk justifying all that money. The success of this game will mean all these people will have a title to point to as evidence that there's interest in Wing Commander.

For all you've said about Generals, you forget that it was that game's success that was eventually able to convince EA to do a 'compilation' and then a full scale new C&C game. Just lke Prophecy, the last generation of C&C FMV games was a dissapointment in profit terms -- a less expensive game brought the license back to life in a few steps.

Say, EA Replay was a compilation and Arena is a less expensive game...

 

[Steltek]

I just hope you're right, I really really do. We haven't yet seen C&C 3, though.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

The only variable is whether or not this game sells -- and it is, by far, the most advanced Live Arcade game yet... which should appeal to pretty much everyone who plays XBLA stuff.

 

[LeHah]

And should appeal to everyone who posts here at the CZ

 

[remo]

If WC Arena is a big hit (which i think it can be), it will pave the way for a new, BIG wc game.

How so?

If this game is a success, won't it just prove that they can slap the Wing Commander name on any old game and fans will eat it up? What would be their motivation to spend the amount of money it would take to develop a true heir to the WC franchise if the budget route gets the job done?

Quite the opposite -- buying this game tells EA that you're not interested in traditional space flight sims, that arcade deathmatches are all you care about.

PS -- Telling people they're "stupid" if they disagree with you isn't exactly the best way to bring them to your side.

 

[Bandit LOAF]

How so?

If this game is a success, won't it just prove that they can slap the Wing Commander name on any old game and fans will eat it up? What would be their motivation to spend the amount of money it would take to develop a true heir to the WC franchise if the budget route gets the job done?

Quite the opposite -- buying this game tells EA that you're not interested in traditional space flight sims, that arcade deathmatches are all you care about.

PS -- Telling people they're "stupid" if they disagree with you isn't exactly the best way to bring them to your side.

You should probably read the entire thread before you post a response to something earlier on in it. All of this has since been discussed.

 

[remo]

You should probably read the entire thread before you post a response to something earlier on in it. All of this has since been discussed.

I was responding to a post that's barely half an hour old... that's not allowed?

If you're referring to your post about there being an interest at EA in doing a traditional WC, I'm sorry but this game will do little to further that cause. Flight sims don't sell, so EA won't risk it. The success of Arena will simply lead to Arena 2, if anything -- the people who will get into this game would be bored to tears by a true WC title. ("dude, what's the waypoint crap, I just want to shoot stuff")

 

[Panzergrenadier]

I'm reserved for arena. First of all is i don't will buy a xbox only for a wing commander game. Secondly after i saw the video i'm more and more the opinion of steltek and fatcat. That what i've seen looks really arcade. A game with no really depth. And this was a lack in academy and armada, too. This too were not bad games but lack a real story and depth.
Although is the reputation of EA in some games not so good. It's a fact that EA rather creates a sequel of a game every year to make money than to try to create some innovations. And the games are no longer as good as they once have been. A good example is Fifa. The once best football simulation is no longer a great football simulation, there's PES which is at least much better. Need for Speed although is no longer the good games they once have been. They are all no bad games but lack things the series once had.
And all i hear and see about arena looks for me a step backward. Okay i can't at build a real opinion until i see the final result, but what i see until know looks not for a game i'll want to play a longer time.

 

[Justin Alexander]

This has nothing to do with you and me having fun with WCArena, this is about Arena being the MOST INTELLIGENT way EA could revive the WC Franchise.

I dunno about Steltek or Fatcat, but I'm not an EA investor. I have no doubt that (1) slapping the WC logo on something will increase its profitability; and (2) that producing an X-Box Arcade title through a small company primarily known for its mobile phone games was a relatively cheap investment.

But, frankly, I don't care. EA's profitability means absolutely nothing to me.

As a fan there are only two questions I care about: Is this a game I will enjoy playing? Is this really a Wing Commander game or just something with a thin veneer of Wing Commander graphics slathered on?

D) There are no big games like WC on the market, hence, the genre is an unknown variable.

And, if we're talking about games like the classic Wing Commander and Privateer series, there won't be any games like WC on the market after Arena is released, either.

The gameplay videos reveal a game which fundamentally, plays like any of a dozen 3-D Asteroids games released over the past few years.

Perhaps you haven't heard of these games. That's because they've primarily been released in the mobile phone market. Which, almost certainly uncoincidentally, is the market where Gaia Industries has done almost all of its development work.

The addition of multiplayer support and the better graphics possible on a 360 are notable, but they hardly constitute a complete genre shift. (Particularly since similar games have been available on the PC for years.)

I suspect that you're right in your analysis that this will be a popular XBLA download. But I've heard the "this is just testing the waters for what we REALLY want" argument from fan communities time and time again, and it's essentially never been true.

Maybe it is true this time. Maybe EA really is testing out the viability of the Wing Commander trademark by slapping it onto a completely different type of game. And will conclude, from the sales of that completely different type of game, that re-entering the cockpit space fighter genre is a good idea.

If it does, that would be fantastic. But saying that we should all be thrilled with Wing Commander: Arena because it may (or may not) mean something completely different is coming down the pike? No. I don't think so. It could just as easily mean nothing more than that Wing Commander: Arena 2 is coming down the pike.

Now, all that being said: For me, Arena will succeed or fail based on its own strengths and weaknesses as a game. To me, racing out and paying out nearly $500 (for a game console, the Live service, and the game itself) because someone slapped the Wing Commander name onto a 2-D arcade game is as irrational as running out to buy a new copy of Tetris because someone slathered on some WC graphics and called it Wing Commander: Block Squad Leader.

It might be the greatest version of Tetris ever made, complete with shields, armor, multiple gun selections and the like. But it's going to have to do more to convince me of that than slapping the Wing Commander name on itself. And it's never going to justify paying $500 all by itself.

And, with all that being said: If I owned a 360, would I be checking this game out? Yeah. Looks nice. For the probable price point of $10-$20, I can easily see the potential for getting a couple days of fun gameplay out of it.

 

[LeHah]

I was responding to a post that's barely half an hour old... that's not allowed?

Not at all - but the topic had been broached and answered in the interrim. Its hard to keep up with the flow of posts the last two days for obvious reasons.

If you're referring to your post about there being an interest at EA in doing a traditional WC, I'm sorry but this game will do little to further that cause. Flight sims don't sell, so EA won't risk it. The success of Arena will simply lead to Arena 2, if anything -- the people who will get into this game would be bored to tears by a true WC title. ("dude, what's the waypoint crap, I just want to shoot stuff")

Hogwash.

Case in point - I bought a 360 just because of this release. I mean, of course I'll play other games on the system - but I was on the fence about which nextgen system to get and the moment I got the nudge about Arena, thats all I needed to know.

As to the success of Arena and "true WC titles" (an asinine desciption, if ever), you didn't prove your point at all. As it's been said endless times in the last 24 hours, this is a stepping stone to see how things fall. Fiscally, it makes more sense - you said yourself that flight sims "don't sell" (not entirely true, but the market is smaller than it once was) and this is simply testing the waters for the franchise.

After all, WWII shooters had their day with Wolfenstein and then made a huge comeback almost 8 years later thanks to Medal Of Honor (notice the timing?). Who is to say that Wing Commander won't do it for flight sims?

First of all is i don't will buy a xbox only for a wing commander game.

Why though? The PC market is flooded with largely "dead" genres. You have Half-Life and it's spin-offs, a couple of other FPS titles, maybe a RPG or two and thats it.

Now look at what the 360 has banged out since it's been released. You have action, driving, shooters... theres more to be done with it and X-Box Live also helps make something of a community out of all of it.

Secondly after i saw the video i'm more and more the opinion of steltek and fatcat. That what i've seen looks really arcade. A game with no really depth. And this was a lack in academy and armada, too. This too were not bad games but lack a real story and depth.

So even if this game is amazing, you won't buy it because of your nebulous ideas of "depth"? Role-playing games nonwithstanding, games these days are not known for their depth of story. This is a sad fact and it's due largely to the market shifting over time.

Although is the reputation of EA in some games not so good.

The trick about making this statement is to *not* reiterate what every jerk on the internet has said about Electronic Arts. In other words, you're welcome to make that claim - but I'd like to see you back it up in your own words with your own evidence.

It's a fact that EA rather creates a sequel of a game every year to make money than to try to create some innovations.

Thats a strange thing to say. I've seen EA put out quite a few great games with innovations in the last five years. Burnout 3 and Def Jam: Fight For New York are two distinctly obvious genres (racing and fighting) that have big genre innovations in them.

And the games are no longer as good as they once have been.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

The obvious answer to this complaint is to buy a copy of Wing Commander and set-up DOS Box on your PC.

And all i hear and see about arena looks for me a step backward.

Son, you ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[Shere Khan]

sorry to crosspost from another thread, but the post seems to be called for here

---

about all the preliminary negative reaction, especially in the gamespot comments ("we were hoping for a first-person FMV game with Mark Hamill to boot, and they dare to give us this kiddy crap") - funny, really. if a fan game with this level of attention to detail and canon was about to surface, be it a side-scroller, a strip poker or a text adventure, it'd get only positive feedback. hell, Chris Knudsen's Privateer: Ascii Sector is 2D, 3d person and TEXT MODE, for f's sake, and everyone's excited about it (me included

this release will give us Wing Commander-themed fast paced multiplayer gameplay, first since Armada, and it surely can be very addictive in 2D. Star Control anyone?

let's just hope the game doesn't have any gameplay flaws inside its genre margin. while it surely won't be a good first-person space sim (for it's not a sim at all), it still can turn out to be a good top-down 2D arcade shooter.

---

the franchise lives, and it's wonderful. neither Academy nor Armada were the end of story-driven WC titles. 10 years of oblivion nearly were.
I hope this new little game will be releases (unlike several bigger projects like Privateer 3 and WC Online), and it'll bring lots of new blood into our community. in my opinion, this is much better than waiting 4 years more for another big project to be grounded. guys, our numbers wane. there's not much interest in lo-res games 15 years old. if there's no new blood, we'll die off. and with this new addition to the pantheon, the fan base can grow, and we may yet get the next big thing. maybe a rehash of the Kilrathi war, maybe a new freeform or massive-multiplayer thing.

oh, and of course, no one HAS to play this one, of course. I won't, having no XBox and living in Moscow but there's no tragedy, guys, nothing to mourn. things ARE looking up. especially if the game's gonna outshine its XBLA competitors.

 

[Shaggy]

The only problem I have with Arena is it's for XBox 360. I'm not going to buy a systems that expensive for simply one game, unless it was say Prophecy 2 with the old cast and Chris Roberts at the helm.

What I've learned in my long history of waiting for Wc, Red Dwarf, and even The Dark Tower is:
1:Never give up hope
2: Be thankful and enjoy what you do have.

Space sims could sell well again, they just need the right spark to hook new players as well as old, and there will always be that chance.
Not to mention that if EA does pooch the deal with Arena there are still the fan projects that have been outshining many commercial efforts.

 

[remo]

As it's been said endless times in the last 24 hours, this is a stepping stone to see how things fall. Fiscally, it makes more sense - you said yourself that flight sims "don't sell" (not entirely true, but the market is smaller than it once was) and this is simply testing the waters for the franchise.

OK, let's say that Arena is a raging success. EA has raked in a ton of cash by slapping the WC label on a low budget arcade action title. The theory is that this will pave the wave for a new, more traditional WC game, right?

There are two problems with this line of thinking. First, you're assuming that players will be willing to make the jump from a quick, simple, pick-up-and-play arcade-style shooter to a more in-depth flight sim. I think that's a bit of a leap. Of course you would, you're a Wing Commander fan -- I'm talking about the gaming public at large.

The second problem is that, like all companies, EA is in the business of making money. If a budget Live Arcade title makes them a boatload of cash, what would be their incentive to risk an large investment of cash on a new 3D flight engine? Why bother if Arena does the job?

 

[Shere Khan]

as for "slapping labels"... I dunno, in my opinion, any game sporting 18 canon ships behaving like they should deserves this label. maybe even more than the Darkening did deserve a Privateer name, being very, very remotely connected to the franchise (while of course having inherited mechanics and dynamics).

 

[Steltek]

Role-playing games nonwithstanding, games these days are not known for their depth of story. This is a sad fact and it's due largely to the market shifting over time.

And that is exactly why I do not like them and subsequently don't buy/play them any further than the demo! (WC Arena notwithstanding if it turns out to be one of them.)

 

[LeHah]

And that is exactly why I do not like them and subsequently don't buy/play them any further than the demo!

Then I'm forced to wonder why you post here at all...

 

[Steltek]

Because I want Arena to be better. Because I somehow hope one of the developers or EA people stumbles over this and steps forward to assure us that Arena is actually better or at least ensures that the successors to Arena will be better. (This is after all the biggest WC related site that I know.) Because others (like FatCat, Justin Alexander, remo, ...) have voiced the same concerns and probably feel well knowing they're not alone. Are my reasons for posting in any form relevant to our reservations towards Arena?