false colors....

[Quarto]

Is that a Navy Captain, or a Space Force Captain? Then again, why bother asking? If it was Navy, then his rapid promotions probably should be investigated by someone in authority... and if he's a Space Force Captain, then he would have no right to be in command of anything.

 

[Quarto]

Wha? Why? He had two options, either tell the joint chiefs about that, and get Tolwyn, a man that has done a lot for him and the entire Confed, seriously screwd. Or keep quite about an incident, that wasn't the only one of that kind anyhow. Though even if he told the joint chiefs about it they wouldn't do anything about it, not yet.

At the time, he knew nothing about Confed being getting seriously screwed. For all he knew, the Kilrathi were serious, and Tolwyn was jeopardising the whole thing. No excuse. As for the joint chiefs not doing anything about it, that's not up to him to decide. His duty was merely to report it. The joint chiefs' duty is to decide.
Oh, and as for the option of getting Tolwyn, the man who has done so much for him... if the very thought that "this man has done so much for me" had been in his head at the time, then Bear should be court-martialled and shot for treason. Confed officers are supposed to be loyal to Confed, not to Tolwyn. While loyalty to one's commander is all well and good, the moment you start thinking about closing your eyes whenever the commander does something wrong... well, you commit treason.

 

[Earthworm]

If it was Navy, then his rapid promotions probably should be investigated by someone in authority...

So Blair, rising from a 2nd Lt, to Lt. Colonel, should also be investigated.

and if he's a Space Force Captain, then he would have no right to be in command of anything.

Sure he would. He would be the equivlant of 2nd/1st Lt. from the navy. And people with those ranks can already command small capships. And of course he could certainly command a wing from the Tarawa.

At the time, he knew nothing about Confed being getting seriously screwed.

No one said that he did....

For all he knew, the Kilrathi were serious, and Tolwyn was jeopardising the whole thing.

But many incidents like that were bound to happen, and they did.

As for the joint chiefs not doing anything about it, that's not up to him to decide. His duty was merely to report it. The joint chiefs' duty is to decide.

Ah, but that's not my point. It was the joint chiefs that wanted Tolwyn to destroy that carrier, and they would play along with their little plan untill it was time to blame him.

Oh, and as for the option of getting Tolwyn, the man who has done so much for him... if the very thought that "this man has done so much for me" had been in his head at the time, then Bear should be court-martialled and shot for treason.

If that was the case, about half of the fleet would have to be shot.

Confed officers are supposed to be loyal to Confed, not to Tolwyn. While loyalty to one's commander is all well and good, the moment you start thinking about closing your eyes whenever the commander does something wrong... well, you commit treason.

Loyalty to one's CO is very common. It's quite easy to see that many soldiers would rather be loyal to someone that fight with them, and can die at any time with them, than people that you'd never heard off.

 

[Quarto]

So Blair, rising from a 2nd Lt, to Lt. Colonel, should also be investigated.

Hardly. We saw that happen, and it happened on his own merits. As far as I know, Bear was not instrumental to the victory in Vega, or anywhere else for that matter.

Sure he would. He would be the equivlant of 2nd/1st Lt. from the navy. And people with those ranks can already command small capships. And of course he could certainly command a wing from the Tarawa.

Laughs. Laughs again, but harder. Where the hell did you get that from? About the only thing he could command would be a three-crew member patrol craft, or perhaps a garbage scow.

But many incidents like that were bound to happen, and they did.

Oh, so if everybody else around you suddenly decide to go out into the street, and fire their AK-47 at innocent civvies, you'll do the same, Earthworm? Everybody else is doing it, so I guess it's perfectly all right

.

Ah, but that's not my point. It was the joint chiefs that wanted Tolwyn to destroy that carrier, and they would play along with their little plan untill it was time to blame him.

I'm well aware of that, and my point remains very much valid. Bear knew nothing about their little plan. Therefore, it was still his duty to report this. Look, I'm not saying that Tolwyn would have gotten in trouble, which he obviously wouldn't. What I am saying is that Bear's duty was to report it. Had Tolwyn immediately explained the plan to him, that would have been a different story.

If that was the case, about half of the fleet would have to be shot.

You missed my point by a light year

. Loyalty to your commander is all well and good, but what if he decides to go on a rampage through a Confed shipping lane? The man has done so much for you... why should you try to stop him from killing civvies? Of course, in Bear's case, Tolwyn's crime was hardly as significant as that - but it's the principle of the thing. You don't ignore some law breakers while clamping down on others.

Loyalty to one's CO is very common. It's quite easy to see that many soldiers would rather be loyal to someone that fight with them, and can die at any time with them, than people that you'd never heard off.

Of course. And it's perfectly all right, as long as you don't allow your CO to break rules & regs.

 

[Earthworm]

Hardly. We saw that happen, and it happened on his own merits.

So because we don't see Bear save Confed at that time, he can't get promoted quickly.

As far as I know, Bear was not instrumental to the victory in Vega, or anywhere else for that matter.

He did try to save the Kilrathi on the transports, and later helped to take out the *evil* mutaniers. Than he helped Blair and Hobbes defend the Olympus station. And than he flew of the Concordia and could have done many heroic things.

Laughs. Laughs again, but harder. Where the hell did you get that from? About the only thing he could command would be a three-crew member patrol craft, or perhaps a garbage scow.

He he, obviosly I have an access to sources that you don't.

Oh, so if everybody else around you suddenly decide to go out into the street, and fire their AK-47 at innocent civvies, you'll do the same, Earthworm? Everybody else is doing it, so I guess it's perfectly all right

.

You're making stupid point out of what I said. The point is that this single incident wouldn't cause the Kilrathi to drop the armistice, because everyone would expect that kind of incidents on both sides.

Bear knew nothing about their little plan. Therefore, it was still his duty to report this.

But I didn't say Bear shouldn't report it because nothing would happen anyhow. I simply said that if Bear would say anything, and be a model officer nothing would happen, I don't mean it as an excuse for Bear to not say anything.

You don't ignore some law breakers while clamping down on others.

You're not suposed to, but a lot of people do that anyhow. In this case Tolwyn had told Bear about his opinion of the armistice, and Bear said that he felt the same way. To hell with politicians, they got them into this mess in the first place.

 

[Death's Head]

"He did try to save the Kilrathi on the transports"
He hardly did anything, he just acted as any dedicated officer should have.
"and later helped to take out the *evil* mutaniers."
And what did he do that was so groundbreaking?
"Than he helped Blair and Hobbes defend the Olympus station."
Sure but wasn't it the admiral's "suggestion"?
"And than he flew of the Concordia and could have done many heroic things."
As did about a 120 other pilots, and everyone else in Confed, not just pilots did there jobs, all could be judged as heroic.
And Bear wasn't soley responsable for getting to Kilrah, the crew and other pilots deserve as much credit.

 

[Quarto]

He did try to save the Kilrathi on the transports,

No. He simply refused to fire at civilians. You don't normally get promoted for NOT doing the WRONG thing.

and later helped to take out the *evil* mutaniers.

Bullshit. He sat the whole thing out in the brig. All he did was rendezvous with Blair, and probably not of his own volition, either. He was just a messenger.

Than he helped Blair and Hobbes defend the Olympus station.

Whatever are you talking about? He ejects right at the start of the battle. Blair and Hobbes are the heroes. Bear is only there to distract the enemy... which he doesn't do, since he seems to have joined the enemy, and enjoys shooting at your back.

And than he flew of the Concordia and could have done many heroic things.

Just one. Name just one. I would figure that if he indeed did something important enough to get him promoted _that_ fast, then it must have been at least as important as Blair's actions in Vega. Therefore, we would have heard about it.

He he, obviosly I have an access to sources that you don't.

Well, then what are your sources?

You're making stupid point out of what I said. The point is that this single incident wouldn't cause the Kilrathi to drop the armistice, because everyone would expect that kind of incidents on both sides.

No, you're making a stupid point by trying very hard to ignore what I said. See, what you're saying is that the incident was acceptable, because such incidents were expected to happen. Does that really make sense to you? You know, the whole reason for the existence of any Police force is because everybody EXPECTS people to commit crimes. But does that mean that when those people eventually do commit crimes, everybody just shrugs, and gives them a pat on the back? No.

But I didn't say Bear shouldn't report it because nothing would happen anyhow. I simply said that if Bear would say anything, and be a model officer nothing would happen, I don't mean it as an excuse for Bear to not say anything.

So you acknowledge that Bear was wrong not to say anything?
For the record, it matters not whether anything would happen afterwards. We're not dealing with Tolwyn here, but with Bear.

You're not suposed to, but a lot of people do that anyhow.

And that makes it all right?

In this case Tolwyn had told Bear about his opinion of the armistice, and Bear said that he felt the same way. To hell with politicians, they got them into this mess in the first place.

Ah, but that's the crux of the matter. See, nobody pays Tolwyn and Bear to think about politics. They're paid to fight. They can think all they want about war strategy, but the moment somebody mentions politics, they should cover their ears.
Hypothetical situation: The Kilrathi actually meant it. They wanted peace as much as the Confeds did. Tolwyn, filled with his doubts, engages their forces anyway. The Kilrathi diplomats are enraged, and break off all treaty negotiations (note that the only reason they didn't insist on a more proper punishment for Tolwyn was because they knew it didn't matter one bit). So, then Tolwyn would be responsible for the whole thing. And Bear would also be responsible - because had he reported it right away, Confed HQ might have issued an apology to the Kilrathi, and started an investigation quickly enough to appease them.
Yes, I know. That's not what happened, and it wasn't bloody likely. But the point is, as far as Tolwyn and Bear were concerned, it COULD have happened. That's why Bear, by failing to report the matter, soiled his uniform.

 

[Asterix]

Anyway it wasn´t Tolwyn that make the call to shoot the Kilrathis. He was under the orders of some Admiral, don´t remember his name. So it was all part of a secret ops by the Confederation, as we later found out on the book. Tolwyn and Bear where are just soldiers and they just do what they are told.

------------------
"Hasta la victoria siempre."
-El Che

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Good God! Homer, I support, you know, any prejudice you can name, but this hero-phobia sickens me.

 

[Quarto]

Hero phobia? Not really. It's only Bear that I hate

. The others are all right.

 

[Dralthi5]

Good God! Homer, I support, you know, any prejudice you can name, but this hero-phobia sickens me.

Appreciate the allusion,LOAF.

Anyway, Earthworm/Quarto:

Asterix is right, the Free Corps campaign was ordered by Adm. Wayne Banbridge, just before he died in the Kilrathi bomb attack that killed the Joint Chiefs. It was all legit.

And Bear is a hero, period. He was in the game for so short a time, we really didn't get a feel for him. Just because some programming glitch causes him to shoot at you doesn't make him bad.

------------------
If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

Whatever are you talking about? He ejects right at the start of the battle. Blair and Hobbes are the heroes. Bear is only there to distract the enemy... which he doesn't do, since he seems to have joined the enemy, and enjoys shooting at your back.

The way the game plays for you has nothing to do with it. It's Hobbes that usualy shots me down, and who ejects right after Bear.

Just one. Name just one. I would figure that if he indeed did something important enough to get him promoted _that_ fast, then it must have been at least as important as Blair's actions in Vega. Therefore, we would have heard about it.

There are milions of heroic things we don't hear about, that doesn't mean they didn't occur.

Well, then what are your sources?

Where did I see a 1st Lt. in command of a capship? ER, or rather Milk Run.

No, you're making a stupid point by trying very hard to ignore what I said. See, what you're saying is that the incident was acceptable, because such incidents were expected to happen. Does that really make sense to you? You know, the whole reason for the existence of any Police force is because everybody EXPECTS people to commit crimes. But does that mean that when those people eventually do commit crimes, everybody just shrugs, and gives them a pat on the back? No.

Um, you said that the what Tolwyn did could cause the armistice to be broken if it was real, and that should be a reason for Bear to go to the chiefs of staff, except that's BS, because everyone would expect that somewhere incidents like that occured, and no one would consider breaking the armisitice because of that.

So you acknowledge that Bear was wrong not to say anything?

Yes and no.

And that makes it all right?

No, but it doesn't make a situation like that special in any way.

Hypothetical situation: The Kilrathi actually meant it. They wanted peace as much as the Confeds did. Tolwyn, filled with his doubts, engages their forces anyway. The Kilrathi diplomats are enraged, and break off all treaty negotiations (note that the only reason they didn't insist on a more proper punishment for Tolwyn was because they knew it didn't matter one bit). So, then Tolwyn would be responsible for the whole thing. And Bear would also be responsible - because had he reported it right away, Confed HQ might have issued an apology to the Kilrathi, and started an investigation quickly enough to appease them.
Yes, I know. That's not what happened, and it wasn't bloody likely. But the point is, as far as Tolwyn and Bear were concerned, it COULD have happened. That's why Bear, by failing to report the matter, soiled his uniform.

The armistice wouldn't be broken because of that one incident. We don't even know if it's the first incident of that type that occured.

 

[Earthworm]

Anyway, Earthworm/Quarto:

Asterix is right, the Free Corps campaign was ordered by Adm. Wayne Banbridge, just before he died in the Kilrathi bomb attack that killed the Joint Chiefs. It was all legit.

I already said that below.... But Bear didn't know about it, so technicly he should have reported about it.

 

[Dralthi5]

Oh, did you? Sorry, must have missed that.

------------------
If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Earthworm]

Well, yeah. Though I didn't say under whos orders Tolwyn was.

 

[Quarto]

The way the game plays has everything to do with it, Earthworm. First impressions and all that. As for Hobbes... yes, he can be dangerous at first (as can Stingray). But that's simply because he's such an aggressive pilot. As long as you select a different target, you'll be fine... not so with Bear though.
As for ER... you can't use that as an example, because that's what we're arguing about

.
You're right that one such incident wouldn't break the armstice. But if there are enough such incidents, the armstice could be broken. Thus, each incident must be considered reprehensible (of course, Tolwyn had a very good excuse, but Bear didn't know), no matter how many occur.

 

[Asterix]

I think that the idea that soldiers must do always the right thing at war is a little stupid. Come on! On the heat of the fight this thing happen. Do you really think that Bear will report something like that?

You can also say thet Blair is a murderer because he kill 200 Confeds Pilots during WC4. He didn´t know he was right... he was just following a person that could be right like Capt. Eisen. Is the same for Bear and Tolwyn.



------------------
"Hasta la victoria siempre."
-El Che

 

[Quarto]

Not quite. Blair's defection in '73 is more comparable to the mutiny on the Gettysburg. Blair found his orders... questionable. As did the Gettysburg pilots. Bear's orders during the post-Armstice battle were also questionable. Yet he didn't say a word.

Of course, you do realise that there's no way to persuade me that Bear was right, don't you? Every human being has a few totally irrational hates and likes. Bear happens to be one of my irrational hates

.

 

[Dralthi5]

And, Quarto, of course you do realize that Bear is a fictional character and that debating this is pretty moot, because everybody can have different interpretations.

------------------
If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

[This message has been edited by Dralthi5 (edited May 21, 2000).]

 

[Bandit LOAF]

Wait, you're arguing that Bear should have reported the fact that he'd gone to fight for the Landreich? Did somebody miss a major portion of Fleet Action

? Bear was no longer part of the fleet at that time -- he was a freelance mercenary, and his position in the Landreich was quite legal.