False Colors Chpt 9: Belisarius ?

Tellana

Spaceman
Hi all! This is my first time posting, so please be gentle if this has been asked before…I HAVE searched and read a bunch of threads but no luck finding an answer so far.

I ADORE the WC novels and am rereading them for the billionth time. Despite this, I am still confused about Chapter 9 in FC. For context, this is the chapter where Tolwyn explains to Bear about Belisarius and then has an extensive internal monologue about the details he left out.

So…can someone help me understand what’s happening here? Tolwyn tells Bear he is antiBelisarius and means it to the point that he sends Kevin to the frontier…but then in his monologue seems like he’s planning on using Belisarius to have an excuse to employ the GE program? He refers to it as wheels within wheels or similar. Is he actually anti-military coup or does he just tell Bear that? Is he pro-civilian government, anti-military coup, just with a bunch of “superior” humans in charge? Is he anti-Belisarius because he doesn’t like them and just pro-his own craziness? Help!! I can’t figure out how it’s all related…what are the half-truths he thinks about? I’m so confused despite having reread it a ton.

Thank you for any insights you have!
 
Hello and welcome! It's wonderful to meet someone interested in the novels enough to talk about something like this. Feel free to post anything, we're not one of those communities that gets mad when something is repeated. Plus I've been posting here for decades now and I'm a lot smarter than 1999 me :D

Tolwyn is telling Bear a half-truth ("the fact that he had engaged in half-truths with a fighting officer he respected more than any other who had ever served under him was troubling"). David Whittaker did attempt to recruit him as part of a conspiracy to overthrow the civilian government as it seemed the war was falling apart (just before Wing Commander III). What he did NOT tell Bear is that Whittaker spoke about more than just an immediate coup to change the tide of the war. Tolwyn believed that he personally could end the war in the short term (with Behemoth) and so was not interested in the immediate goal... but he either already shared the opinion or was convinced by Whittaker that the NEXT war would be lost because of humanity's genetic inferiority to a species like the Kilrathi ("Overman—strange, Whittaker had told me to read Nietzsche to find the hidden truth of the program. I did and I believed in spite of my moral outrage.").

Tolwyn investigated the conspiracy himself and found it was serious. They make a point of showing he had the opportunity to tell /anyone/ about it ("'You had Presidential access,' Bondarevsky pointed out.") and he didn't. After Tolwyn was court martialed for the Behemoth disaster, the conspiracy saved his career and made sure he knew it. It's here that he learns that the ostensible conspirators called themselves "the Belisarius Group" and that their motives aren't altruistic at all now that the war is ending in victory; they want to retain the power they had during the war. They kill Whittaker because he wasn't interested in this goal at all; he (and Tolwyn) care about humanity's survival (as they understand it) but they aren't personally interested in power.

And then what Tolwyn doesn't tell Bear at all is that he is now using the Belisarius Group to achieve his (entirely crazy) plan for ensuring humanity's survival: "There was the constant gnawing strain that the G.E. project, the virus hidden within the bacteria of Belisarius, was perhaps the greatest moral outrage of all." He's describing a phage - a virus that uses bacteria to replicate; Tolwyn is using Belisarius, with its understandable selfish goals and immediate reach, to achieve his own goals... which we'll see played out in The Price of Freedom. It's basically the same conversation he has with Blair in Wing Commander IV when he's discovered at the space station in Peleus (after the jammer goes down): he knows about the conspiracy and he's collecting evidence and he just doesn't know who to trust... but he's actually playing the whole thing. In False Colors, he's in the Landreich because he has to stop the war from restarting... FOR NOW. Once the bioconvergence technology is ready and he can control the situation, he's going to do pretty much the same thing (without actually taking power).
 
Thanks so much for the welcome, and the thorough reply!

I first read the novels when I was like 13 or something, then was delighted when I reread them as an adult to find that they, unlike many parts of my 80s/90s childhood, were not cringe and actually had some staying power. I often feel like the only person in the entire world who not only has read them but is slightly obsessed with them (erm…maybe more than slightly) so it was wonderful to discover this group.

Your explanation was really helpful. I followed along well until the last paragraph.
Tolwyn is using Belisarius, with its understandable selfish goals and immediate reach, to achieve his own goals... which we'll see played out in The Price of Freedom.
Okay. So. It seems from FC moments like with Williams and the other Belisarius guy in the Landreich (I don’t have the book right now…Mancini? Martini? I think I’ll arbitrarily start calling him Martini) that Tolwyn is NOT part of the conspiracy….as evidenced also by his sending Kevin out of danger (UNLESS the latter is a super complicated red herring). But the virus within the bacteria thing seems to indicate that Tolwyn has some control over the system…OR does it just mean that he would happily take a war started by Belisarius for their own totally separate reasons EXCEPT THAT the timing is wrong because the GE program isn’t ready? Like is he involved actively with the conspiracy in some way, is he fighting it, or is he fine with it happening as long as he feels he can control/manipulate it externally? (the latter seems the most in-character but I can’t find textual evidence for it). How can he use the conspiracy if he’s not involved in it?

Does any of that make sense? Hopefully you can see where my understanding is muddled.

Thank you LOAF! Nice to meet you!
 
Okay. So. It seems from FC moments like with Williams and the other Belisarius guy in the Landreich (I don’t have the book right now…Mancini? Martini? I think I’ll arbitrarily start calling him Martini) that Tolwyn is NOT part of the conspiracy….as evidenced also by his sending Kevin out of danger (UNLESS the latter is a super complicated red herring). But the virus within the bacteria thing seems to indicate that Tolwyn has some control over the system…OR does it just mean that he would happily take a war started by Belisarius for their own totally separate reasons EXCEPT THAT the timing is wrong because the GE program isn’t ready? Like is he involved actively with the conspiracy in some way, is he fighting it, or is he fine with it happening as long as he feels he can control/manipulate it externally? (the latter seems the most in-character but I can’t find textual evidence for it). How can he use the conspiracy if he’s not involved in it?

Does any of that make sense? Hopefully you can see where my understanding is muddled.

I see what you mean! Williams and Mancini don't seem to be in a position where they know that Tolwyn has any connection to or knowledge of the conspiracy... but I think that's meant to tell us how relatively insignificant they are to the overall conspiracy. After all, even if Tolwyn were an arch enemy of what they were doing, the head conspirators would at least know he'd been approached and then threatened.

But what was Tolwyn doing, exactly? As they're trying to escape Baka Kar, Tolwyn has some inner monologue that sums up what they've accomplished, ending with "And the delay would ruin the Belisarius Group's timetable for precipitating a frontier crisis that could give them their excuse for grabbing power in the Confederation." So he is there actively opposing the immediate goal of Belisarius as understood by Williams and Mancini... but then at the at the very end of the book we find out Tolwyn is unexpectedly returning to Confed and that he has just been put in charge of the Strategic Readiness Agency.

He then has a conversation with Bear where he tries to recruit him one more time and explains: "Did you ever really wonder why I was out here? ... First-hand look at the situation and also to get out of the way for awhile while certain things clicked into place. Now they're in place." He also lets slip that "I resigned my commission and was following orders out here" which calls back the same reveal at the end of Fleet Action where we find out outraging the Kilrathi to the point of being court martialed had been intentional from the start.

Like his analogy, he has found this conspiracy and recognizes its value for his own goals - it has convinced important generals, judges, etc. that will let him do what he wants to do. And they want him! But their current plot isn't really useful to him. He has to stop/delay the immediate plot to incite a war because he can then step in and take charge of the whole thing, which he has already arranged to do once he puts the situation in the order he wants. He goes back to Earth now in charge of the fleet and says 'look, I'm now in a position to do what you want (retain military control/restart the war) and here's how we're going to do it...'.

I think the biggest confusion comes from the fact that we don't ever see anyone who is actually running the conspiracy (or whoever believes they're running it) and we don't get any confirmation where Tolwyn stands with them /during/ False Colors. SOMEONE is giving him orders to go off to the Landreich and supporting his career (saving him at the trial, putting him in charge of the SRA... maybe giving him Behemoth in the first place) but we don't know if that's... John Belisarius... or some other faction. But we know that Tolwyn is playing the situation to his benefit in a way he's not telling Bear. (The idea that there might be someone /above/ Tolwyn in the Black Lance conspiracy stuff is interesting and it's a darned shame Andrew Keith never got to write that book! He had wanted to follow False Colors with two sequels which probably would've made a lot of this clearer.)

Noticed while rereading the ending stuff:

"Ever peel an onion?"

Jason shook his head at the curious question.

Geoff Tolwyn x Shrek! (Bear /hasn't/ ever peeled an onion??)
 
Thank you so much for the extensive reply; once again very helpful although I think I need to reread it a few times before a proper response. However, to address your most important point:

Geoff Tolwyn x Shrek! (Bear /hasn't/ ever peeled an onion??

Bear. Your dad was off to war and you didn’t help mom AT ALL? C’mon, man.

However, equally surprising is the fact that Geoff Tolwyn apparently HAS peeled an onion.

Perhaps he mouthed off at the academy and KP taught him a few things?
 
I see what you mean! Williams and Mancini don't seem to be in a position where they know that Tolwyn has any connection to or knowledge of the conspiracy... but I think that's meant to tell us how relatively insignificant they are to the overall conspiracy. After all, even if Tolwyn were an arch enemy of what they were doing, the head conspirators would at least know he'd been approached and then threatened.

But what was Tolwyn doing, exactly? As they're trying to escape Baka Kar, Tolwyn has some inner monologue that sums up what they've accomplished, ending with "And the delay would ruin the Belisarius Group's timetable for precipitating a frontier crisis that could give them their excuse for grabbing power in the Confederation." So he is there actively opposing the immediate goal of Belisarius as understood by Williams and Mancini... but then at the at the very end of the book we find out Tolwyn is unexpectedly returning to Confed and that he has just been put in charge of the Strategic Readiness Agency.

He then has a conversation with Bear where he tries to recruit him one more time and explains: "Did you ever really wonder why I was out here? ... First-hand look at the situation and also to get out of the way for awhile while certain things clicked into place. Now they're in place." He also lets slip that "I resigned my commission and was following orders out here" which calls back the same reveal at the end of Fleet Action where we find out outraging the Kilrathi to the point of being court martialed had been intentional from the start.

Like his analogy, he has found this conspiracy and recognizes its value for his own goals - it has convinced important generals, judges, etc. that will let him do what he wants to do. And they want him! But their current plot isn't really useful to him. He has to stop/delay the immediate plot to incite a war because he can then step in and take charge of the whole thing, which he has already arranged to do once he puts the situation in the order he wants. He goes back to Earth now in charge of the fleet and says 'look, I'm now in a position to do what you want (retain military control/restart the war) and here's how we're going to do it...'.

I think the biggest confusion comes from the fact that we don't ever see anyone who is actually running the conspiracy (or whoever believes they're running it) and we don't get any confirmation where Tolwyn stands with them /during/ False Colors. SOMEONE is giving him orders to go off to the Landreich and supporting his career (saving him at the trial, putting him in charge of the SRA... maybe giving him Behemoth in the first place) but we don't know if that's... John Belisarius... or some other faction. But we know that Tolwyn is playing the situation to his benefit in a way he's not telling Bear. (The idea that there might be someone /above/ Tolwyn in the Black Lance conspiracy stuff is interesting and it's a darned shame Andrew Keith never got to write that book! He had wanted to follow False Colors with two sequels which probably would've made a lot of this clearer.)

Noticed while rereading the ending stuff:



Geoff Tolwyn x Shrek! (Bear /hasn't/ ever peeled an onion??)
I am so bereft at the fact that there are unlikely to be any more novels. I would have loved to seen a follow up to FC but even more so to Action Stations which I think added considerable dimensionality to Tolwyn, Richards, and Banbridge. Would happily crowd fundraise for that one!!

I agree with your last paragraph (pre-Shrek) about not seeing who is in charge/involved as being confusing, and more so about where Tolwyn stands with them during FC…or where he intends, at this point, to stand with them in the future. I think FC points to him NOT being involved at all at that point (as opposed to Mancini et al just not being in the know) given the following:

A) yes, he may want his best people on the Karga, but he sent Kevin there for fear and perhaps Jason too although I can’t support the latter. If he was involved at any level, I’m assuming there would be no need to threaten Kevin.
B) this quote from FC, Chapter 18: “Tolwyn was beginning to get a renewed faith in the loyalty and support of a good crew. The Belisarius Group had shaken that faith once, but Mjollnir's officers and spacers proved that not everyone was tainted with that kind of corruption.” That’s an internal monologue…sounds like the existence of the group really DID shake his faith and cause some trauma, and that therefore his hurt towards Dave Whittaker was also quite real (described by Tolwyn as even worse than when he lost his family…um, c’mon, REALLYdude??) and not just some crap he was giving Bear.
C) the last sentence of the quote you cited earlier from FC: “ "You see, my coming out here wasn't just a whim," he announced, "there was something else afoot. Call this a bit of a fact finding mission, an upfront look. /With the SRA I now have the data I need to block what others are planning to do."/”

I had assumed the “others” in this case were the Belisarius group…but perhaps it refers to the (admittedly idiotic) civilian government?

The biggest question (not confusion so much any more, just wondering) to me is the one you posed: what his plans were for the conspiracy moving forward. I agree with you (if I have understood your take correctly) that it seems likely and in character to plan to use Belisarius to his own ends, and it certainly seems that they are still supporting him, or else how does he step up to head of SRA? (““It occurred to Taggart, as he watched Tolwyn, that the admiral was the best politician of all of them. How else could the man—who'd nearly been cashiered after the Behemoth debacle—bounce back to run the Strategic Readiness Agency as his personal fiefdom? The man was a survivor, with more lives than a cat.”—POF). My only other thought would be if there would be the “some other faction” you mentioned; in fact, a SECOND conspiracy, one that was more focused directly on Black Lance, GE etc—that invisible leader you mentioned who may outrank even Tolwyn in it and be saving him in the meantime.

Although there is one piece of evidence you mentioned that I understood differently, the part towards the end of FC that reads: “Won't you get arrested?" "Hell, I resigned my commission and was following orders out here. They can't hold me on that."” I understood the following orders as “resigned, came out here, joined up, followed orders from Kruger/Richards” as opposed to “I followed someone’s orders to come out to the Landreich in the first place.” I can see how it can be read either way, though!

I also am very fascinated by the tragic hero/descent into madness aspect of the novels (which is why I’m now reading them in chronological order instead of publication order as I have in the past). I realize that’s been discussed ad naseaum here, but in rereading old posts I found this gem of yours, LOAF, that I think is the best description I’ve seen. You wrote: “He understands what Blair, in his stuggles, fails to: he is a ruined soul, the necessary sacrafice of so long war. He believes therefore that because he has already traded his humanity that he may break the rules as long as the government does not.” That goes well with the FC mid-book drinking he does before and after his convo with Bear (my kindle has frozen so I can’t find it but he talks about the fact that he knows he should have moral outrage about what he’s planning but it’s either disappeared or has been buried).

One other side-note: at the end of FC Bear describes that he and Tolwyn had gone out drinking at the nightclub the night before. I cannot for the life of me picture it lol.
 
I am so bereft at the fact that there are unlikely to be any more novels. I would have loved to seen a follow up to FC but even more so to Action Stations which I think added considerable dimensionality to Tolwyn, Richards, and Banbridge. Would happily crowd fundraise for that one!!

I agree with your last paragraph (pre-Shrek) about not seeing who is in charge/involved as being confusing, and more so about where Tolwyn stands with them during FC…or where he intends, at this point, to stand with them in the future. I think FC points to him NOT being involved at all at that point (as opposed to Mancini et al just not being in the know) given the following:

A) yes, he may want his best people on the Karga, but he sent Kevin there for fear and perhaps Jason too although I can’t support the latter. If he was involved at any level, I’m assuming there would be no need to threaten Kevin.
B) this quote from FC, Chapter 18: “Tolwyn was beginning to get a renewed faith in the loyalty and support of a good crew. The Belisarius Group had shaken that faith once, but Mjollnir's officers and spacers proved that not everyone was tainted with that kind of corruption.” That’s an internal monologue…sounds like the existence of the group really DID shake his faith and cause some trauma, and that therefore his hurt towards Dave Whittaker was also quite real (described by Tolwyn as even worse than when he lost his family…um, c’mon, REALLYdude??) and not just some crap he was giving Bear.
C) the last sentence of the quote you cited earlier from FC: “ "You see, my coming out here wasn't just a whim," he announced, "there was something else afoot. Call this a bit of a fact finding mission, an upfront look. /With the SRA I now have the data I need to block what others are planning to do."/”

I had assumed the “others” in this case were the Belisarius group…but perhaps it refers to the (admittedly idiotic) civilian government?

The biggest question (not confusion so much any more, just wondering) to me is the one you posed: what his plans were for the conspiracy moving forward. I agree with you (if I have understood your take correctly) that it seems likely and in character to plan to use Belisarius to his own ends, and it certainly seems that they are still supporting him, or else how does he step up to head of SRA? (““It occurred to Taggart, as he watched Tolwyn, that the admiral was the best politician of all of them. How else could the man—who'd nearly been cashiered after the Behemoth debacle—bounce back to run the Strategic Readiness Agency as his personal fiefdom? The man was a survivor, with more lives than a cat.”—POF). My only other thought would be if there would be the “some other faction” you mentioned; in fact, a SECOND conspiracy, one that was more focused directly on Black Lance, GE etc—that invisible leader you mentioned who may outrank even Tolwyn in it and be saving him in the meantime.

Although there is one piece of evidence you mentioned that I understood differently, the part towards the end of FC that reads: “Won't you get arrested?" "Hell, I resigned my commission and was following orders out here. They can't hold me on that."” I understood the following orders as “resigned, came out here, joined up, followed orders from Kruger/Richards” as opposed to “I followed someone’s orders to come out to the Landreich in the first place.” I can see how it can be read either way, though!

I also am very fascinated by the tragic hero/descent into madness aspect of the novels (which is why I’m now reading them in chronological order instead of publication order as I have in the past). I realize that’s been discussed ad naseaum here, but in rereading old posts I found this gem of yours, LOAF, that I think is the best description I’ve seen. You wrote: “He understands what Blair, in his stuggles, fails to: he is a ruined soul, the necessary sacrafice of so long war. He believes therefore that because he has already traded his humanity that he may break the rules as long as the government does not.” That goes well with the FC mid-book drinking he does before and after his convo with Bear (my kindle has frozen so I can’t find it but he talks about the fact that he knows he should have moral outrage about what he’s planning but it’s either disappeared or has been buried).

One other side-note: at the end of FC Bear describes that he and Tolwyn had gone out drinking at the nightclub the night before. I cannot for the life of me picture it lol.
Ugh but THEN there’s the part in FC where GE is described —going back to this— “the virus hidden within the bacteria of Belisarius”—which implies that, if Tolwyn is working with GE and GE is within Belisarius…but then the point of the phage is that it DESTROYS the bacteria…so now I’m back to confusion again about Tolwyn’s “current” (ie, in FC) relationship with Belisarius.
 
I am so bereft at the fact that there are unlikely to be any more novels. I would have loved to seen a follow up to FC but even more so to Action Stations which I think added considerable dimensionality to Tolwyn, Richards, and Banbridge. Would happily crowd fundraise for that one!!

Never say never! I pitch giving us the book rights every time I can get someone's ear. And I get a little closer each time!

Ugh but THEN there’s the part in FC where GE is described —going back to this— “the virus hidden within the bacteria of Belisarius”—which implies that, if Tolwyn is working with GE and GE is within Belisarius…but then the point of the phage is that it DESTROYS the bacteria…so now I’m back to confusion again about Tolwyn’s “current” (ie, in FC) relationship with Belisarius.

My take is that he's interested in Belisarius for the chess pieces it gives him for his own effort; they already have their tendrils into the system, they have an infrastructure built up... all things Tolwyn wants to take control of and use for his GE conspiracy. It's basically what we see in the WC4 novel: his plan relies on things like having conspirators in positions to control the courts, command particular ships and fleets and so on. Many of these people aren't ideological converts, they're self-interested... they want to keep their positions and power. So I see Belisarius as the source from which he picks up folks like Admiral Harnett and Captain Paulsen. He's delaying their original plot (without destroying the group) and then taking over (either overtly or covertly) their logistics to suit his needs.

I agree with your take, though, I think you're right that Belisarius doesn't consider him part of the conspiracy in False Colors. And I think your read on the orders line makes more sense than mine; someone above Tolwyn in WC4 would be a nice reveal, though! (I appreciate both novels attempts to move the Black Lance stuff from sudden moustache twirling to something with some kind of history...)

I guess a big question is: when did Tolwyn become involved with GE or 'The Plan'? And were those initially those separate things? The conversation with Blair after he's captured in Peleus says that GE was a program that he learned about after the war. I think this reads very much a mirror of the Bear chat: Tolwyn is genuine but even without being able to see his inner monologue he's obviously not telling the complete truth. Blair notes that he seems genuine at the end, which I think is our hint at that. With that read, GE is like Belisarius... another prêt-à-porter element that Tolwyn is picking up and bringing into his own orbit in 2669-2670 (which fits the idea that he essentially lost his morality after the Battle of Earth).

"Well," Tolwyn answered, "he was part of some secret experiments that were going on near the war's end. Special Ops had gotten pretty much out of control by that point. They kept cooking up wonder weapon after wonder weapon and soaking up more and more money. This thing Seether was involved with was more of the same, another whiz-bang that was supposed to save us from certain doom, We were desperate and grasping at straws." He face grew sour. "Sort of like the Behemoth. And to think I bought into that."

Blair nodded in sympathy, recalling its disastrous loss and the damage it had done to Tolwyn's reputation.
Tolwyn looked sharply at him. "But don't forget the Excaliburs and Paladin's little bomb also came out of that same special operations budget. So it wasn't all bad."

Blair nodded. "What kind of program was Seether in?"

Tolwyn glanced at him. "Those programs were tightly compartmented, very strictly need to know. I didn't get the full brief until after the war, when I took over SRA." He rubbed his jaw. "As I recall, it was a little number called GE, short for genetic enhancement. It was some kind of selective breeding program, or eugenics. I'm not certain on the details."

Blair told him about his encounters with Seether's pilots and Bean's descriptions. "Was there cloning?"

"No," Tolwyn answered, "at least not so far as I know. I'm told they never mastered the technology." He furrowed his brow, trying to recall the dusty memory. "I think they'd worked out what they called 'optimal templates.' " He looked troubled. "There shouldn't be that many GEs running around. I was told that the program had been pulled up by its roots."

Blair looked at him, perplexed. "You were told? How many more of these Special Ops projects are lurking out there that you haven't been told about?"

Tolwyn looked a little sheepish. "A lot of these things are buried deep. The problem is, how do you shut down programs hardly anyone even knows about? If you can tell me, I'd do it." Blair studied his face. Tolwyn looked sincere. Blair saw he had no other choice but to take Tolwyn at face value. He sure as hell wasn't going to take him prisoner. He held out his hand. "I'm sorry I shanghaied you, Admiral."

BUT his speech to the Black Lance crews later walks through the history which goes back to a big computer analysis of the war in the early 50s... which leads to black projects including GE (and presumably things like the T-Bomb, Behemoth, Omega, the bioweapons being researched at Greenhouse, etc.) and then the 'The Plan'. So his goofy WC4 plot has been around since WC1 but he seems very careful with his pronouns... it's all we and not Tolwyn specifically that set this up. So did Tolwyn pick all this up after the war or was he part of this group of people who knew all this twenty years ago? And if he's being genuine to Blair--which I think he is--then who was carrying the fire for 'The Plan' for all that time?

Tolwyn clasped his hands behind his back and stepped away from the lectern. "Twenty years ago," he said conversationally, "we ran an exhaustive computer analysis of the Kilrathi War. We used the best data we had to cover every possibility, no matter how remote. We programmed hundreds of variables and thousands of scenarios. Hundreds of millions of credits were spent to simply build the hardware we'd need to do the study."

He faced the crowd, his hands open, as though trying to embrace it. "The machine's results confirmed what we had secretly come to believe: that the war, as we fought it, wasn't winnable without a miracle. The Kilrathi, with their superior genetic structure and focused society, would bring to bear greater and greater resources and withstand the tribulations of protracted war better than our spoiled race. The fittest species would survive, and it wouldn't be us."

He assumed a professorial air as he turned and paced the stage. "The Black Projects division, the search for a miracle that would save us, was begun. Hand in glove with the short term goal of surviving the war came the realization that we needed to restructure society and even the race itself, if we were to have long-term viability. And so was born The Plan.

"It so shocked the higher-ups that they buried it—buried you. We were able to divert a small amount of money here. Those funds kept the research going, and provided the genetic templates for the future.

"We achieved our short-term goal." He tossed his head and raised his voice. "We won the war by a fluke! A lucky rabbit punch against a superior opponent delivered by an exceptional man."

His voice dropped again. "That short-term success did nothing to resolve the long-term issue. Fortune is notoriously fickle, and it is dangerous to expect every crisis to be resolved through benevolent interdiction, or luck."

Polite laughter rippled through the room.

"Humanity," he continued, "can't depend on miracles. Our long-term need remains imperative. We need a plan for survival, one that programs our development for a thousand years and a thousand years beyond that." He frowned. "As our current economic situation demonstrates, our race has proven incapable of planning from year to year, much less for the generations and centuries ahead. We must begin planning for the next war, for the next conflict that tests our race, even though we may not see it for a millennium."

He pointed his finger at them. "The Kilrathi will be back, eventually. While we wallow in misery at a little economic upheaval, they are testing their genetics in fratricidal wars. They fight, warrior against warrior, for the glory of their houses and themselves. They grow stronger, year by year, as the best prevail. In a generation or two, they will be back—rearmed, reorganized, and even stronger."

(That said, I also like the potential story that he DID know about all this in 2653 and that's why he was so interested in young Blair... who we also establish had his genes involved in the GE templates at that time.)

I also am very fascinated by the tragic hero/descent into madness aspect of the novels (which is why I’m now reading them in chronological order instead of publication order as I have in the past). I realize that’s been discussed ad naseaum here, but in rereading old posts I found this gem of yours, LOAF, that I think is the best description I’ve seen. You wrote: “He understands what Blair, in his stuggles, fails to: he is a ruined soul, the necessary sacrafice of so long war. He believes therefore that because he has already traded his humanity that he may break the rules as long as the government does not.” That goes well with the FC mid-book drinking he does before and after his convo with Bear (my kindle has frozen so I can’t find it but he talks about the fact that he knows he should have moral outrage about what he’s planning but it’s either disappeared or has been buried).

One other side-note: at the end of FC Bear describes that he and Tolwyn had gone out drinking at the nightclub the night before. I cannot for the life of me picture it lol.

It's very interesting to talk about; I think folks tend to put down stories that aren't particularly planned in advance but I find it incredibly fascinating how the Wing Commander books work to adapt to things they can't control happening in the game. You end up with a history to consider for Tolwyn both in and out of the world.
 
Never say never! I pitch giving us the book rights every time I can get someone's ear. And I get a little closer each time!
Man, if you could swing this I would give you a Max Kruger case of beer in a heartbeat.

My take is that he's interested in Belisarius for the chess pieces it gives him for his own effort; they already have their tendrils into the system, they have an infrastructure built up... all things Tolwyn wants to take control of and use for his GE conspiracy. It's basically what we see in the WC4 novel: his plan relies on things like having conspirators in positions to control the courts, command particular ships and fleets and so on. Many of these people aren't ideological converts, they're self-interested... they want to keep their positions and power. So I see Belisarius as the source from which he picks up folks like Admiral Harnett and Captain Paulsen. He's delaying their original plot (without destroying the group) and then taking over (either overtly or covertly) their logistics to suit his needs.

Yes, okay, THIS makes sense to me. Thank you.

I was thinking on it some more and I think part of my confusion about it stems from the metaphor use in FC. If the author were still alive (may he rest in peace), I would write and ask him about it. As far as I can see he uses four metaphors for the conspiracy within a conspiracy:

1) onions have layers (so do parfaits!) —inner layer and outer layers are neutral as they relate to each other.
2) game within a game —again, both relate neutrally
3) the virus within the bacteria: here’s where it gets interesting, because a virus does just what you describe above, takes advantage of an existing host without actually being a part of it and ultimately (if I remember phases right from my microbiology days…it’s been a hot minute) destroys it. So the inner layer—the virus—uses the bacteria—Belisarius—for its own ends then ultimately destroys it.
4) the Trojan horse—in this analogy, the horse is a tool for those hiding within it—again, rings true to your description above—EXCEPT THAT this time the horse and people within it are truly working together to bring down a third party (the Trojans equal…??), which makes it different from the phage analogy. I think that’s partly what’s confusing to me about where Tolwyn ultimately stands on Belisarius. Is he using Belisarius as a friend (the Trojan horse), as an enemy within (the phage), or something else? But at the end of the day your chess piece analogy makes a lot of sense.

I guess a big question is: when did Tolwyn become involved with GE or 'The Plan'? And were those initially those separate things?
My understanding is that those things, or at least the genetic engineering of humans into supersoldiers, was a pre-Tolwyn thing he picked up. I’m not sure if that’s canonized somewhere or if I just assumed that, though. I’m less sure where the GenSelect gets picked up—if that was his own or an inherited thing. But yeah, if GE was a Black Ops project started 20 years ago at the time of the Great Computer Sim but scrapped, and Tolwyn picked it up at some point, then SOMEONE was indeed carrying the flame in the meantime.


It's very interesting to talk about; I think folks tend to put down stories that aren't particularly planned in advance but I find it incredibly fascinating how the Wing Commander books work to adapt to things they can't control happening in the game. You end up with a history to consider for Tolwyn both in and out of the world.
I know that AS was written earlier and had the forward added as a result of WCIV (errr…I THINK I know that…). FC definitely has the feel of “oh crap we gotta figure out how to bridge the gap because Battle of Terra Tolwyn and Genocidal Tolwyn” and uses a lot of internal monologue to do it. I know I can look at publication dates but I also know publication dates don’t always indicate time of writing. Do you know if FC was the last written as well as one of the last published?
 
I know that AS was written earlier and had the forward added as a result of WCIV (errr…I THINK I know that…). FC definitely has the feel of “oh crap we gotta figure out how to bridge the gap because Battle of Terra Tolwyn and Genocidal Tolwyn” and uses a lot of internal monologue to do it. I know I can look at publication dates but I also know publication dates don’t always indicate time of writing. Do you know if FC was the last written as well as one of the last published?

I think you've got it about right! False Colors was the last Baen novel published but it was outlined before The Price of Freedom and was written simultaneously. And since TPoF ended up mired in rewrites, False Colors never had more than the initial outline to reference.

Baen's deal for the books was interesting in that they paid no additional licensing fee as long as they published one novel per year. Origin was more interested in building the IP and saw the books as primarily a way to get the series out there. So Baen would have multiple novels in the works at the time to guarantee they kept the license. Then one knock-on from that was that when they added the novelizations which needed to be published as closely as possible to the game it pushed books in the works ahead a year or more.

Action Stations was the book delayed the most as it was planned for the 1995 slot (#4 after Fleet Action)... and it ended up as #6 in 1998 because of the game release schedule. The incredibly short timeline for making WC4 was a surprise for everybody in both worlds and caused no end of problems! I think you can see some of the slight edits that got made to Action Stations to match later stories/more defined lore -- adding the post-WC4 bookend, blowing up the Concordia instead of leaving it as the same ship from WC2, dropping in a bit to better match with the Victory Streak timeline (the ever-so-slight mention of Ches M. Penney).

But before WC4 was locked, False Colors was supposed to be the book after Action Stations and it was outlined as a direct sequel to Heart of the Tiger without any knowledge of what WC4 would be about. But EA had to have WC4 by Christmas '95 (... February 96...) so False Colors ended up at the back of the line. The end result was Dr. Forstchen outlined a story that he thought could happen without getting in the way of anything else: fighting a top secret post-war conspiracy using the safe 'book characters' in the Landreich, something the books originated and wasn't likely to appear in the games. (Forstchen had been told the next game would likely be about fighting a new alien race and was operating with that in mind.)

Then Andrew Keith wrote the book itself in late 1995 without access to anything about WC4... and then after the WC4 book was finally finished the briefest mentions of stuff like GE and Seether were worked in to try and square it with The Price of Freedom. (But you can see it's pretty rough even compared to the kinda-evident changes to Action Stations... just look at Admiral Richards' death despite his already having appeared in the next story timeline-wise!) So really our confusion about Belisarius is deserved... it was all added after the story was done!
 
Aaaaannnnddd…things are so much clearer now. That explains a LOT, including the weird pacing of FC (well, at least in part)…focus on Jason Jason Jason interrupted by multipage Tolwyn internal monologues. Also why the WC books don’t focus on Blair except for the two direct tie-ins (ignoring the movie stuff; can’t quite bring myself to read them). I actually love Jason and Hunter as characters but it always seemed strange to me that they are peripheral in the games but central (Jason more than Hunter) in the books.

Actually, given this system, it’s pretty impressive that they were able to give Tolwyn as sophisticated an arc as he has; I do agree it’s a bit of Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde pre and post WWIII, but with those complications I think they’ve done well with it (less well with Clara/Elizabeth/Rebecca two sons/three sons but hey we can’t have it all!)
 
Aaaaannnnddd…things are so much clearer now. That explains a LOT, including the weird pacing of FC (well, at least in part)…focus on Jason Jason Jason interrupted by multipage Tolwyn internal monologues. Also why the WC books don’t focus on Blair except for the two direct tie-ins (ignoring the movie stuff; can’t quite bring myself to read them). I actually love Jason and Hunter as characters but it always seemed strange to me that they are peripheral in the games but central (Jason more than Hunter) in the books.

Yes! They kicked off work on the novels towards the end of Wing Commander II's development and as part of that planning decided on characters that would spin off into the books whose fates could then belong to Forstchen and company. And Bear was basically introduced in Special Operations 1 with his role as novel lead in mind... which is why everyone there is suddenly so excited about him! (He was actually first created for WC2 with a slightly different backstory as part of a dropped subplot where Blair realizes he's a teenager who lied about his age to fight the Kilrathi.)

I will pitch reading the movie novels, though! Not because they're great but because they're interesting. The novelization lets you see the movie structured as it was written... and the lore is all from the games since that was all Peter Telep had to draw from. So it's kind of like the 'right' version of the movie where everything is described like it was from the games. And then the other two... well, I'm just being selfish there because I just did a deep read and want someone, anyone to talk to about them!

Actually, given this system, it’s pretty impressive that they were able to give Tolwyn as sophisticated an arc as he has; I do agree it’s a bit of Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde pre and post WWIII, but with those complications I think they’ve done well with it (less well with Clara/Elizabeth/Rebecca two sons/three sons but hey we can’t have it all!)

It is pretty funny that in terms of sheer continuity the biggest problem is not the multiple types of media telling different stories at the same time with limited connection but... Dr. Forstchen not remembering his own details from book to book. David Ladyman was kind enough to let me read some of his correspondence with Baen fact checking the books and it was pretty exhaustive what he'd change and ask to be changed... but stuff like Tolwyn's wife...s never got flagged because he wasn't looking at it thinking he had to check their books to each other!

I have said it here before but one of the books I would love to attempt is an exhaustive in-universe biography of Tolwyn patterned after Robert Caro's Years of Lyndon Johnson... written by a historian in the 2730s or so who is using Tolwyn's life to tell the story of the 27th century (would work with with Paladin as the basis, too!).
 
I will pitch reading the movie novels, though! Not because they're great but because they're interesting. The novelization lets you see the movie structured as it was written... and the lore is all from the games since that was all Peter Telep had to draw from. So it's kind of like the 'right' version of the movie where everything is described like it was from the games. And then the other two... well, I'm just being selfish there because I just did a deep read and want someone, anyone to talk to about them!
ugh okay I just ordered the movie novel. I hold you fully responsible, LOAF, if I decide I want those hours of my life back ;-).

I mostly am in denial that the whole Pilgrim lore exists…that combined with such different actors makes it feel like a whole separate universe to me. And I have this pet peeve where I don’t want history movies to be embellished when history is strong enough in its own. So, for instance, I HATED the movie 300 because I saw so much potential in the Thermopylae story (didn’t realize 300 was based on print at the time which would have adjusted my expectation) because I felt it dishonored the real warriors involved to feel the need to jazz it up. And I sort of feel like that with WC, even though it’s entirely irrational when the whole universe is made up. But I also have only watched the movie exactly once—I was drugged up from wisdom teeth removal—so I could probably stand to give the novelizations a chance, esp if like you said they are more like the games.


I have said it here before but one of the books I would love to attempt is an exhaustive in-universe biography of Tolwyn patterned after Robert Caro's Years of Lyndon Johnson... written by a historian in the 2730s or so who is using Tolwyn's life to tell the story of the 27th century (would work with with Paladin as the basis, too!).

Wouldn’t that make it like 3000 pages or something? ;-) In all seriousness that’s a brilliant idea. I definitely like the way that AS was adjusted by adding the forward setting it in history. I don’t know that it was strictly necessary—it could have just been released as a prequel—but it added depth. Def do it with Tolwyn, though! I like Paladin but he’s not nearly as intriguing.

I would also like someone to write the Kilrathi Codices and hero tales. Love that sort of world building.
 
And then the other two... well, I'm just being selfish there because I just did a deep read and want someone, anyone to talk to about them!
My brother had Pilgrim Truth at some point...but I never was interested. Don't like the whole Pilgrim thing at all. It had no place in Wing Commander and it was a shameless attempt by Chris Roberts to try to piggy-back on Star Wars hype that had been building since Lucas announced the prequels. I didn't much care for False Colors either TBH.
 
My brother had Pilgrim Truth at some point...but I never was interested. Don't like the whole Pilgrim thing at all. It had no place in Wing Commander and it was a shameless attempt by Chris Roberts to try to piggy-back on Star Wars hype that had been building since Lucas announced the prequels. I didn't much care for False Colors either TBH.
You're free to feel however you would like about pilgrims, but you're wrong about the motivation behind their creation and inclusion. The WC movie script was being developed alongside WC4. Chris wrote out a whole pitch document outlining the basic story and his ideas of what the movie would be at some point in 95 ( that didn't include pilgrims) but the first draft that followed (that did include Pilgrims) was also written in 95. The original intent for the pilgrims at some point seems to have and their genesis with the WC4 borderworlders though. You can kind of see traces of this in WC4 itself with the focus on the different genetics of the Borderworlders and how the main confed BL pilots and Paulsen all look down on the BWders. Probably due to a worry about IP issues, they were changed to Pilgrims at some point for the movie script.

WC4 production delayed work on the movie and it wasn't really picked back up in proper until Chris left Origin in 97 and formed Digital Anvil. They made a teaser trailer to sell the idea of the movie to investors and potential distributors doing pre-sales of international rights to raise money. Fox picked up the North American distrubution rights and Sony was in line for the International rights Before shooting though Sony dropped out, and and Fox picked up a handful of the international territories left open. But Fox also had Star Wars... and that was shot july-september of 97. They turned around and then said they could go ahead and make the Wing Commander movie but had to have it out before Star Wars. Digital Anvil had only a few months of pre-production time before they would have to start shooting in order to meet their Fall '98 delivery date. A lot of the design decisions were to deliberately distance the WC movie from a perceived "Star Wars look" not to copy it. That's why they leaned so heavily into the retro WW2 look and so on. But in the end the Pilgrim stuff is kind of the opposite of the force.

The bigger issue with the Pilgrim stuff is that it's all lacking any context in the theatrical cut. The whole reason for it being included (and the key heard of the movie) never made it to the screen at all. And it wasn't really there to give Blair some super power... but without having all the character moments highlighting Blair's choice, you're left with "Blair has this thing that makes him special for no reason".
 
I would say the bigger issue is that we had 5 Wing Commander games in which the concept of Pilgrims was never mentioned or even hinted at.
 
I would say the bigger issue is that we had 5 Wing Commander games in which the concept of Pilgrims was never mentioned or even hinted at.
Having a civil war prior to the Kilrathi conflict is an interesting expansion of the WC Universe. Ultimately having Pilgrims also really doesn't change anything about the games either so it's not really breaking anything, but I get it. I'm not crazy about the powers aspect of it (especially as explained in the two movie sequel novels) but it's neither here nor there ultimately as those books also basically write them out of the story at large as well.

For me what doesn't work well in the Theatrical Cut, but also in the movie story at large is that it never really makes it clear why being able to sense changes in Magnetic fields would make Blair better than a computer at calculating a jump, or even what the jump routes look like and why having a Navcom makes any difference since it seems obvious that most ships already have a set of known jump routes stored on board.. SO why is the Pegasus one different? Why are there jump points only some ships and people can use? It does not really set up that aspect at all.

Regardless that's kind of derailing the book conversation.
 
My brother had Pilgrim Truth at some point...but I never was interested. Don't like the whole Pilgrim thing at all. It had no place in Wing Commander and it was a shameless attempt by Chris Roberts to try to piggy-back on Star Wars hype that had been building since Lucas announced the prequels. I didn't much care for False Colors either TBH.
I love False Colors but it in many ways (ignoring movie tie ins entirely for now) it does seem like the Odd Duck of the series. Much less action, much more repair work, shifts in human/Kilrathi relationships and many, many internal monologues, particularly from Bear and Tolwyn. I can see where people might not like it…I just happen to love the psych stuff in it.

For me HOTT and TPOF ARE actually the most difficult reads (again, ignoring movie tie-ins). Blair, to me, seems self-absorbed and mopey, and I don’t actually like him in the novels all that much. Plus the romances are blerghhhhh. In terms of novels I think the others work better but I came at the franchise through the novels rather than the games initially so I suspect that paints my appreciation and affection accordingly!
 
For me HOTT and TPOF ARE actually the most difficult reads (again, ignoring movie tie-ins). Blair, to me, seems self-absorbed and mopey, and I don’t actually like him in the novels all that much. Plus the romances are blerghhhhh. In terms of novels I think the others work better but I came at the franchise through the novels rather than the games initially so I suspect that paints my appreciation and affection accordingly!

I think all of this--folks' issues with the movie and the game novelizations--speaks to the same issue... there's an inherent difficulty in adapting Blair that I don't think anyone understood (or at least cared about) at the time. That's because to much of the audience he's, well, you. The games are designed very carefully with this in mind; there's no backstory for Blair beyond what you experienced in the games (and felt you had control over the process). The games resisted the urge to even lock his name in for years! And when they had to, the Mark Hamill casting was pretty inspired because Hamill's great accomplishment isn't that he's a leading man but that he's a very good audience stand-in.

So when you adapt him in a linear setting he doesn't have what the interactive audience brings with them. The adapters have to add things like backstory, conflict and motivations that are inevitably going to be in conflict with any or all of what fans have in their heads already. And inevitably that backstory is that he's losing missions or kind of a jerk or that he's a drunk or that his mom was a space mormon it feels to some people like the story is attacking them. It's not a conspiracy to insult the character or to make it more like Star Wars... it's just something that's needed for that type of storytelling being added in a way where you have no agency over the character you've been taught to assosciate with.

And people experience that and they don't really understand why they feel the way they do and the discourse gets a little nutty. Is the Pilgrim stuff some insane betrayal of the core series? Not really... Wing Commander waited years to introduce a dozen other factions and no one cared (... in most cases...). Is it even out of character for Wing Commander to add some kind of silly sci fi religion in a later story? Well, Privateer did it in 1993 with the Church of Man... Privateer 2 did it in 1996 with the Holy Order of Hom... and in 1997 Prophecy based the entire future of the series on a Kilrathi religion with an idea you'd never heard of before! But none of those were touching /YOU/! (Is recasting the actors or changing the looks of the ships new to Wing Commander? No! It happened over and over again as they shifted art styles and sensibilities and technologies... but changing it in a way that takes it away from being you is a unique feeling that comes out of interactive going into other mediums!)

All of this is to say that I think it's pretty fascinating that Freedom Flight got it 'right' the first time out by giving us the story from a different perspective that we weren't tied to. The book gets to play a little fast and loose with continuity and no one really cares because it's not strictly the thing we experienced in the game. But even just having Blair pick the 'bad' options or lose missions in the WC3 adaptation--a thing you can do in the game!--feels egregious to some because it's being done to them. (Also interesting that Wing Commander Academy /doesn't/ have this problem because they avoided giving Blair much backstory... which was possible in the format because it's a medium where you expect to have a perfect good character for kids to follow as the hero. Would that work in a motion picture that has to tell a story in 100 minutes? I don't know, my gut feeling says he wouldn't come off as very interesting.)
 
On subject but off subject, canon in general is just too convoluted at some point. I'll always appreciate that Bandit tries to piece all the stuff together to make it make sense, but I look at the books as its own series and I look at the games as its own series kind of in a parallel universe.

Looking at some recent star wars fiction the fact that the Empire from the Obi-Wan Kenobi show is supposed to be the same Empire from the andor show is Canon breaking to me, on a smaller scale. Because the Empire in the Obi-Wan Kenobi show are bumbling buffoons who can't recognize a child under a coat being smuggled out of a high security prison/base, and that is supposed to be the same Empire from Andor. The andor empire is showed to be competent military leaders that would spot the child being smuggled out in a half a second. the antagonist in Obi-Wan are far closer to the characters of Spaceballs not Star Wars.
 
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