Cloaking ability

[Earthworm]

I'm not sure if I'm following your reasoning on this. I know that Confed gave the cats quite a bit of leeway after the war but if they're afraid of some future Kilrathi retaliatory revenge attack then wouldn't it be wiser to conquer & subdue the Kilrathi completely?

But that's just not the Confed way. Do you want them to just kill every Kilrathi in the universe?

As for the WWI reference I believe the Allied powers drafted the Treaty of Versailles with the express intention of eliminating Germany as a world military power for good. That doesn't quite fit with post war Kilrathi/Terran relations.

As FC puts it, the Allies puched the Germans too much. They gave them to much restrictions, which only further angerd them. Confed knew they had the uper hand at the moment, but they didn't want any suicidal Kilrathi warlords going on some revange crusades.


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"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"
and the bodies of those adventurers who get bad advice.

Member of the LMG (Disgruntled Men)

 

[Quarto]

Penguin: What Earthworm is saying, basically, is that Confed preferred to do what the US did to Japan after WWII, rather than what the Allies did to Germany after WWI.

 

[Penguin]

What I meant by conquer & subdue is eliminate any possibility of a future Kilrathi war. This doesn't require the extermination of the kitties

Anyways this gave me an idea. I looked over the Kilrathi prophecy again & it said that if the Kilrathi were ever beaten by anyone, with the exception of the so called 'star gods,' then the 'star gods' would return & annihilate them without honor. Also the 'star gods' would destroy their conquerors (us), which would heap yet further dishonor on the Kilrathi who

"a horrific prediction to the Kilrathi, who view the death of a blood-foe by another's hand as among the gravest of dishonors" [end quote].
Therefore perhaps Melek's comments about needing to change Kilrathi ways was more about saving face then it was about saving the Kilrathi race. If they changed their ways then they would no longer believe in the prophecy, which means that if the star gods did come back & did wipe out the Kilrathi, then the Kilrathi would still die fighting, with honor.
Alternatively if the Kilrathi didn't change their ways then from a Kilrathi Sivarist point of view the only honorable alternative for them, having been defeated by 'furless freaks,' would be a bitter fight to the finish - they get wiped out by us but still die with honor.
This sort of gives the impression that if they ever lost a war then extinction is their only possible conclusion - with honor if it is by our hand or without honor if it is at the hand of the 'star gods.' So in a strange, extremely fundamentalist point of view wiping out the Kilrathi would actually be doing them a favour.

 

[Earthworm]

What I meant by conquer & subdue is eliminate any possibility of a future Kilrathi war. This doesn't require the extermination of the kitties

Oh yeah, lets just suspend their ship building capabilities, and destroy all their current ships. That probably won't piss them off!

So in a strange, extremely fundamentalist point of view wiping out the Kilrathi would actually be doing them a favour.

Ha ha ha, LOL.

That's actually funny. But I'm pretty sure the Kilrathi would rather find a new emperor, unite under him and then kick our buts, rather then being exterminated.

 

[Penguin]

Earthworm: I'm glad you liked it

Anyways its likely only the most fanatical Kilrathi would follow that reasoning. A good thing too since 1) it would give us a reason to get rid of them & I think you would agree the universe needs a few less fanatics/extremists & 2) wiping out the Kilrathi would diminish the WCU substantially. It'd be like taking the Klingons out of ST permanently.

 

[Wedge009]

I find it strange how in the 'future' past enemies seem like good friends. Just as you see with Blair's response to Melek in WC4, the Kitties becoming 'allies' in WCP. And it's also funny to think of Darth Vader and the Emperor as relatively 'good' characters in the light of worse enemies in the Star Wars novels.

 

[Dralthi5]

Are you referring to the Vong, or just the novel villains in general (ie. Thrawn, Exar Kun, etc.)?

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Wedge009]

WARNING: Topic Drift

Now entering alternate sci-fi universe...

Baddies in general. IG-88 taking over Death Star II and making fun of the Emperor. Though he was evil, we share a link with him in that we're are living creatures, while IG-88 was AI. And everyone from Jade to Kyp Durron thinking Vader was just as bad, but he redeemed himself at the end.

Incidentally, I haven't got round to reading about the Vong yet. I'm not keen on starting a new series, the books are more expensive too. Is it much like the other novels? I liked Stackpole's X-Wing Series and I know he writes the 2nd and 3rd books in the New Jedi Order.

Speaking of X-Wing Series, Aaron Allston also writes some of the books, and I also note an "A Allston" listed in the credits in Claw Marks manual. Is there a connection there?

 

[Wedge009]

Now returning to Wing Commander Universe...

About the Trivia, where do we find that the Midway was commissioned in 2680? The earliest date listed in ICIS was 2681.013 IIRC, and I can accept that the Midway was in (incomplete) operation in 2680, I just wanna know where it says this. If it's not in the game or the manual, I'll be disappointed...

 

[StarLight]

what one of my actual questions was, not WHERE can i get teh cut out bits, but WHY the bits have been cut out...
coz obviously some ppl have it (i think) and i dont' and i wanna know why

 

[Bandit LOAF]

According to the ICIS Manual (circa 2681.025) the Midway's Marine contigent has been publishing their newspaper for *several* months -- even *one* month would mean they were there before 2681

 

[Dralthi5]

The Baron strikes again!

[off-topic]Wedge: The New Jedi Order contain some of the best SW books in a loooong time (I had given up the series after the dreadful Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy). I've read up to book 5 (don't have the money to buy the new HC, Balance Point, though). Mike Stackpole's books are the best so far, to be honest. Anyway, the NJO books are cooler, IMO, than the rest of the series, and much more violent. And, after all, we always need more violence in our literature...

[/off-topic]

Hey, I also noticed the A. Allston in Claw Marks. That had me wondering too.

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If I'm locked on, there's no such thing as evasive action!

 

[Wedge009]

Gah! I shoulda recognised that little tidbit in ICIS. Oh, well.

Uh Dralthi, I can't see how you could say that NJO are the best when you've only read five of the 'standard' novels. I found if you're into the starfighting side of SW, the X-Wing Series was great, but Zahn manages to work all elements of SW very well. If you haven't got Zahn's original trilogy, you should try it. And barring Zahn's duology set 15 yrs after RotJ, I found the books set further 'away' from the original movies were more detached and unassociated from the SW universe we love.

Anyway, enough on that.

 

[StarLight]

uh, isn't anyone gonna answer my question?
teh one about: how come some (at least my copy) does not have some of the videos that other people do...i am NOT asking where you can get them from, but WHY

 

[Wedge009]

Hey, don't you know only the questions which don't mean much get answered?

The missing scenes from WC3 I assume were recorded from the Playstation version in RM format. Dunno about the WC4 scene. And the cloaking explanation in Prophecy... well, LOAF would never let us in on the secret of his omniscience.

It does seem like the more important scenes are the ones which get cut, doesn't it.

 

[Shane]

I find it strange how in the 'future' past enemies seem like good friends. Just as you see with Blair's response to Melek in WC4, the Kitties becoming 'allies' in WCP. And it's also funny to think of Darth Vader and the Emperor as relatively 'good' characters in the light of worse enemies in the Star Wars novels.

The Enemy of my enemy is my friend

A bit late but a slow day here, so I'm reading a few older posts. You see this phenomenon in fiction because it is also mirrored in real life. Look at the realtionship between some of the former Allied and Axis powers from World War II. France and Germany have really warmed up in the last few years and are pushing hard for a stronger EU. You still have bumps in the road, but the US and former Soviet Bloc countries, even Russia have much better relations. Sometimes more strained than others, but much better than a decade ago.
Switching back to the Sci-fi world, one of the features I really liked about the last few season of ST:TNG and pretty much all of DS9 were the shifting alliances that were going on. I've always hoped for a WC game with a more "mixed" crew. I'd love to see some of the other species mentioned in the novels as well.

 

[Crusader11]

Yeah. Even though sometimes in SF it seems to stretch the limits of believability some times, it is a very real phenomenon. The shifting of alliances and the idea of uniting against a common enemy are very much a part of Human history. This goes as far back as the ancient Greeks. At the times of the great wars in the mediterranean, where Carthage was conquering everyone, the Greeks seemed like another easy target. They were just a big collection of individual city-states with no particular allegiance to one another. But, when attacked by an outside force, they banded together and became the only real group to defeat the invaders. As everyone else fell, they maintained their independence.

Then of course you have the more recent and relevent examples of changing alliances in the World Wars and Cold War. Heck, just look at how many times Italy changed its mind

But also, back to SF, one of my true favorite SF TV series is all about the changing of alliances and the rise and fall of empires; Babylon 5

It is also the reason why have even been more addicted to WC since WCII and III really introduced the elements of terrorism and betrayal into the storyline. It's also why I absolutely loved WCIV's plot, though, at times, the gameplay left a bit to be desired...

 

[Penguin]

Just nit picking, but Carthage wasn't conquering everyone. The only real annexations that they made was in southern Spain (circa 230s - 219 BC) & Sicily (circa 280s - 260s BC).
As for Greek unity - the Greeks were never truly united in the Ancient World. Even during the Persian Wars, when some 2-300,000 Persian troops were ransacking northern & central Greece, the Greeks were still arguing over strategy. Each major state was trying to tailor the war effort to its own advantage. Hence the Athenians insistence on the 'wooden palisade' or naval operations & the Spartan insistence on a defensive stand on the Corinthian Isthmus.
As for shifting alliances - once again witness ancient Greece. There were so many leagues & alliances & little civil wars brewing its a wonder they didn't wipe each other out. Finally the Romans got tired of it & put their sandaled foot down & incorporated Greece into the empire.
Final note: empires - love them or hate them empires often have the habit of imposing peace on subject peoples - whether they like it or not.

 

[Quarto]

To put it simply, this is the real world, people (or at least the SF equivalent

). There's no such thing as good and evil in politics - there's only national interests. Therefore, there is no such thing as permanent hostilities or permanent friendships.

 

[Shane]

Final note: empires - love them or hate them empires often have the habit of imposing peace on subject peoples - whether they like it or not.

Pax Romana, for example. While not an empire look at the Former Yugoslavia as a prime example of that, or some of the trouble in the former Soviet Republics. In the SF world, a number of the Star Wars novels mirror this with problems that had been supressed by the Empire causing new disputes that the Empire was able to contain.

[This message has been edited by Shane (edited November 10, 2000).]