capi3101
Admiral
Yeah, that makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying, Ironduke.
Alpha Test Game 4
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Yeah, that makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying, Ironduke.
I can confirm that the game as coded would already consider this a pure 60° arc. As this is what I coded as a fix a few days ago, I consider that I don't need to reimplement again and that things are 'correct' now.
We've done it in the old, pure WCTO games, so I coded it that way. you can definitely chaff and evade if you want. That's what Sierra 1 did. Evasion = no movement this turn.
The way it is coded right now, the evasive action in EP phase is considered to be an early next-turn MP phase movement. Since that was a failed shelton slide, it is considered to have been turning movement, and you can't fire a DF against it. This goes back to Ironduke again; do you want me to change the way that works? It wouldn't be too hard to have the 'I turned "this turn" ' flag disappear for people that actually turned during an EP.
You're out of missiles, dude.
So far, aside from a change in the rule interpretation (whether or not Sierra 1 should be preventing a DF target lock, which, even if I fix it wouldn't come into play until next turn) there's nothing here that's considered a bug. Go ahead and put in your orders.
capi3101
Admiral
Definitely something that needs clarification in the next iteration of WCTO's manual. I'm writing these bits and pieces down to be compiled in v0.15 (or hopefully 0.2).
Okay, here's what I'm thinking: If someone takes an evasive maneuver during End Phase (and thus effectively didn't move during Movement Phase), he or she should be a valid target for a DF. You're meant to be a sitting duck after taking evasive maneuvers, after all.
Hey look at that, everyone stopped rolling. We're into some deep functionality now!
Literally 1 line of code later, and this is now the behaviour, live in game. Quick, someone shoot a missile at someone else, so they have to take a turning-based evasive action so that the next turn they're a sitting duck and we can line up a ship to target a DF on them! man, bug testing/fixing is fun.
I hope you're writing it down, because as you give me these rulings, I implement them immediately into WCTOO and there isn't really a record of it aside from the forum posts themselves!Definitely something that needs clarification in the next iteration of WCTO's manual. I'm writing these bits and pieces down to be compiled in v0.15 (or hopefully 0.2).
Literally 1 line of code later, and this is now the behaviour, live in game. Quick, someone shoot a missile at someone else, so they have to take a turning-based evasive action so that the next turn they're a sitting duck and we can line up a ship to target a DF on them! man, bug testing/fixing is fun.
Another tailing question... Maybe it's too early in the morning for me, but since Zeta 2 has successfully tailed Sierra 1, and Sierra 1 already made his move, shouldn't I get something different in my Tailing Predictions than "None of your ships are tailing enemies?" Zeta 2 is still highlighted in orange, as are capi's fighters (which are both tailing as well).
Also, in the Field Report, full tailing isn't highlighted, but a partially successful tailing ("getting a notion") is in yellow. Is that intended?
Also, in the Field Report, full tailing isn't highlighted, but a partially successful tailing ("getting a notion") is in yellow. Is that intended?
Should have been green; if you recall I mentioned (I think in the other thread) that I finally got the end-phase reports formatted better. This is clearly a bug with that work.
Yeah... you should be red now, and getting a message. I'm going to take over your ship for a bit to figure out what is going on, and then return it to you.
Well, I'm looking at the code, and it looks like I forgot to code in a 'you have pending tail information'. Hang tight and wait for ironduke to move and see if that changes.
Okay so I sort of know the problem: all the multiturn tailing data got cleared out. Looking back, I only seem to see successfully unbugged tailing when you're also firing a missile, but that's in the last 3 turns. (the database of turn info is huge so I didn't want to browse). Somehow the multiturn data got erased, so the game knows you're tailing, but has no idea who you are tailing. We need to move on, and try tailing again to make sure this is working next turn, or see if this bug is repeatable.
I've fixed and updated many of the tailing messages, and next time the successful tailing should pop up in green. I also think I added in a 'you're waiting on info' message for pilots that are orange.
Make your moves and, if possible, try tailing again next time.
I've fixed and updated many of the tailing messages, and next time the successful tailing should pop up in green. I also think I added in a 'you're waiting on info' message for pilots that are orange.
Make your moves and, if possible, try tailing again next time.
capi3101
Admiral
Will do.
Quick question...let's say you've got two players, each with two ships. The first player tails one of the second player's ships, while the other of the second player's ships tails the other of the first player's ships. What will happen in that situation? Obviously, both players will want to wait to get the other player's movement before issuing move orders for their own craft (particularly if they want to try to move the one craft to coordinate with the other).
Someone has to give up and move first.
It case it wasn't clear: none of you are getting any tailing information this turn. I don't know why, and I need to see if it happens again. Please submit orders and move on. Not sure if you're all waiting on something, but I have definitely seen Capi post here, so I know he could have submitted by now
capi3101
Admiral
capi3101
Admiral
Well, that's a bite.....
Turn 19CP:
Yep. I said it before, and I'll say it again: that's a bite. Hell.
In turn 19 EP, shouldn't Zeta 1 have gotten a tailing opportunity for Dark Archon instead of just Zeta 2?
This occured to me only split-seconds after I hit the "Report Orders" button, but maybe there's still a way to find out what went wrong. Zeta 1 is facing Dark Archon, and is also in Dark Archon's rear arc.
This occured to me only split-seconds after I hit the "Report Orders" button, but maybe there's still a way to find out what went wrong. Zeta 1 is facing Dark Archon, and is also in Dark Archon's rear arc.
capi3101
Admiral
Page 10: "Tailing only works for fighters and bombers. A pilot has to be within five hexes of his target's rear arc and face it or head in the same direction to attempt to tail it. (Note that asteroids and capships between you and your target will block your line of sight!) If both ships occupy the same hex, Tailing is not possible."
I've actually seen this same situation in this game once already, where in order to tail, not only did you have to be within five hexes and within the rear arc, but you also had to be oriented the same way as the fighter you wanted to tail. I thought I'd saw that had to be the case in the rules, but re-reading now I see that it's not (the picture on page 10 - notably the Drakhri in the "D" position) is the same situation we've got right now between Zeta1 and Archon.
So yeah, I was going to try and refute this since I'm in a bad spot at the moment, but I can't. Looks like a bug.
I've actually seen this same situation in this game once already, where in order to tail, not only did you have to be within five hexes and within the rear arc, but you also had to be oriented the same way as the fighter you wanted to tail. I thought I'd saw that had to be the case in the rules, but re-reading now I see that it's not (the picture on page 10 - notably the Drakhri in the "D" position) is the same situation we've got right now between Zeta1 and Archon.
So yeah, I was going to try and refute this since I'm in a bad spot at the moment, but I can't. Looks like a bug.
I don't like doing this, because I have to manually edit like 4 places in the database, and screwing up can easily create a lot of other, not normally available bugs for us.... but since it was only 1 ship, I've reversed your orders on Zeta 1.
Looking into it....
My undersanding of this matches both of yours and that was always my coding intention... that said, I found the bug. Straightforward really.. (man, that's a bad pun... if you get it )
Code had been:
If you beat that, you could tail. I checked and all the variables were being filled correctly. The problem was obvious at an immediate glance. The 'angles are equal' part was fine and working, and the rear arc part was working.... but it was impossible for your forward bearing to be less than 2 AND greater than 358! You couldn't target the straightforward tailers. Changed the first && to a || ("and" to an "or" in case you guys don't read code) and it works fine. You'll see that zeta 1 can now tail either one.
Resubmit your order as desired.
Looking into it....
My undersanding of this matches both of yours and that was always my coding intention... that said, I found the bug. Straightforward really.. (man, that's a bad pun... if you get it
)Code had been:
Code:
((($bearing_in_front_attacker <= 2) && ($bearing_in_front_attacker >= 358)) || (($this->angle == $tailtarget->angle) && ($bearing_behind_target >= 120)&&($bearing_behind_target <= 240))) {Resubmit your order as desired.
capi3101
Admiral
If I understand the rules (and what's been implemented and what's not), there's a very high degree of likelihood that I'll be out of the game after this phase is over. So, I gotta ask: in what order will missile actions be resolved this turn? Is it completely random, or does the code iterate through a pre-defined list?
So... it does go through a list, which is the order in which they got inserted into the database in the previous turn, which depends on the order in which the ships got processed. While It will almost never be consistent, you could probably assume that ti would be something like:
1. any existing missiles carried over from previous turns in the order they were already in
2. any new missiles, likely in the order that they get mentioned in the field report
But really I can't guarantee that. No where do I intentionally sort them by any factor, that's just the most likely resolution order.
capi3101
Admiral
Turn 19EP:
We broke something when we reset tailing opportunities; Wandering Soul is getting options to tail Dark Archon, Zeta2 and Bravo1. Archon and Zeta2, sure...but Bravo1 should definitely not be an option.
Bravo1 is also on Archon's potential tailing list; will also hold off on Archon's orders.
We broke something when we reset tailing opportunities; Wandering Soul is getting options to tail Dark Archon, Zeta2 and Bravo1. Archon and Zeta2, sure...but Bravo1 should definitely not be an option.
Bravo1 is also on Archon's potential tailing list; will also hold off on Archon's orders.