Wing Commander III
- Thread starter Fruitcake
- Start date
vindicator
Rear Admiral
I remember thinking back in WC3 while playing WC4 and feeling like they wrote the guy to go nuts in 4 as if they knew that is the direction the were going to take it. I was a bit shocked to read "action stations" and "Fleet Action" both of which give you a totally different take on Tolwyn.
My personal agony though is I got the sense that why would a man who has seen so much death and destruction of his own kind be so willing to inflict that same barbaric treatment on his own people border worlders or not. And now, the more I think about it the less the simple statement he makes about humanity at war with the kilrathi being our finest hour (Alluding to war being a good thing "We must be prepared") seems too weak to explain the drastic change. Then again, I haven't read the WC4 novel. Does it do justice to why Tolwyn went bonkers?
Also, just as a side thought, I remember in fleet action how quickly eveyone wanted to disarm and go back to normal again. Really anti-millitary attitudes. So I'd assume that the reaction was fairly similar after the kilrathi finally surrendered, Right?
-Rance-
My personal agony though is I got the sense that why would a man who has seen so much death and destruction of his own kind be so willing to inflict that same barbaric treatment on his own people border worlders or not. And now, the more I think about it the less the simple statement he makes about humanity at war with the kilrathi being our finest hour (Alluding to war being a good thing "We must be prepared") seems too weak to explain the drastic change. Then again, I haven't read the WC4 novel. Does it do justice to why Tolwyn went bonkers?
Also, just as a side thought, I remember in fleet action how quickly eveyone wanted to disarm and go back to normal again. Really anti-millitary attitudes. So I'd assume that the reaction was fairly similar after the kilrathi finally surrendered, Right?
-Rance-
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
No, the WC4 novel pretty much just rehashes WC4 in this aspect... which is, of course, to be expected. When writing a tie-in novel, you don't have the freedom to go off on a tangent.vindicator said:
In many ways, the intro to Action Stations tries to explain more - but ultimately, it's a futile effort. There just isn't much you can do to explain what happens to Tolwyn, because it really does seem to be simply a case of the scriptwriters thinking he'd make a good villain and turning him into a space-age parody of Hitler.
vindicator
Rear Admiral
Which is really sad. Just to plug it, I think everyone should read fleet action it's one of my favorites and I went back to it just this morning because of this thread.
-Rance-
-Rance-
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
He's different from WC2, too, though... and the manner in which he's different is that he's a two dimensional character instead of a realistic person. He's a generic evil Star Trek admiral instead of just someone who doesn't like Blair.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Eh, I'll say it: Tolwyn in WC4 was an awful character. The fact that they said "Malcolm McDowell plays a good bad guy, lets make Tolwyn *space Hitler*!" is probably the worst thing that ever happened to Wing Commander.
Bandit LOAF
Long Live the Confederation!
Wing Commander IV impresses me for lots of reasons, but I think it's also more flawed than any other Wing Commander game.
Delance
Victory, you say?
It’s not that unusual for people to give in to radical ideologies like that, especially after times of great struggle. A lot of seemingly normal individuals might join such groups inexplicably. Perhaps out of a misguided sense of patriotism, of duty, who knows? Even celebrated war heroes can do things people seemingly completely out of character.
The totalitarian approach, the bizarre interpretation of Darwinism, the “end justify the means” morality on enforcing their plan, the total abandonment of the traditional sense of ethics, all that was consistent with a certain spectrum of ideas. Nazis were the inspiration, but most of this stuff is not exclusive to them.
Besides, it seems Tolwyn didn’t create the Black Lance, he merely embraced it and allowed it to be put in practice.
For a game, it was a good, deep, much more then one could expect. Yeah, Seether laughed like a carton, WC4 had its share clichés and weak points.
The totalitarian approach, the bizarre interpretation of Darwinism, the “end justify the means” morality on enforcing their plan, the total abandonment of the traditional sense of ethics, all that was consistent with a certain spectrum of ideas. Nazis were the inspiration, but most of this stuff is not exclusive to them.
Besides, it seems Tolwyn didn’t create the Black Lance, he merely embraced it and allowed it to be put in practice.
For a game, it was a good, deep, much more then one could expect. Yeah, Seether laughed like a carton, WC4 had its share clichés and weak points.
Quarto
Unknown Enemy
Yes, I do. I think it has a really bad story, compared to other WC games. That having been said, I also admire it for its ability to make me forget about the badness of its story - it seems that the moment I start playing the game, I forget all about the silliness of space Hitler, the final courtroom scene, and all that. The game is very engrossing. I played through it in one sitting at point (starting in the afternoon, ending some time in the morning)... which is remarkable considering that I'd played the game before, and in any case the one-hit-kills missiles make WC4 the only WC game (all right, apart from Priv 2) that's actually frustrating to play.Fruitcake said:
I'd think a better comparison would be Stalin. During World War II, he proved to be a strong leader & an essential ally to defeating the Nazis. But after the war, it became clear that he was a murderous tyrant. The World War brought out the best in him, just as the Kilrathi war brought out the best in Tolwyn.Quarto said:
AD
Finder of things, Doer of stuff
Part of why wc4 is great isn't the story (which I agree is somewhat silly) but rather the way it's told. For the most part it runs seamlessly from start to finish. and once it gets going it races along to an exciting conclusion (I dont mean the trial. The build up to the vesuvius battle is great. That whole mad dash for earth) Everything is polished and goes down smooth.
However, below all the gloss, Even Blair gets relegated to cheesy dialogue which, about 20 percent of the time is just him thinking out loud. Borst and depalma actually take away from the actors abilities by over-writing the dialogue. Instead of a meaningful glance of puzzlement and frustration from the title character, the main character spouts off stuff that should have already occured to us if we were paying attention, basically re-stating the obvious. (there's atleast three spots I can think of off hand that do so glaringly, two of which occur before Blair and Maniac get to the lex.) Part of why Maniac is alot of peoples favorite character in 3, 4 is because Tom improvises alot.
In wc2 at least everything isn't spelled out for you. On another note, no matter how many other cap ships (friendly) there were in wc3&4, the universe didn't really seem to breathe. In wc2 you were often escorting ships and convoys that were part of other operations. It really felt like there were a lot of things happening and things going on that didn't rely you to fly a mission.
And if you haven't played wc2, do your self a favour and find the deluxe ed. cd on ebay (or something). You have no basis for commenting of this if you've only played 3,4. ( which are still great games) Keep an open mind... and pay attention to all of the story and cutscenes. It may take you a moment to get used to the gameplay's sprites but I'm sure you wont regret the experience.
However, below all the gloss, Even Blair gets relegated to cheesy dialogue which, about 20 percent of the time is just him thinking out loud. Borst and depalma actually take away from the actors abilities by over-writing the dialogue. Instead of a meaningful glance of puzzlement and frustration from the title character, the main character spouts off stuff that should have already occured to us if we were paying attention, basically re-stating the obvious. (there's atleast three spots I can think of off hand that do so glaringly, two of which occur before Blair and Maniac get to the lex.) Part of why Maniac is alot of peoples favorite character in 3, 4 is because Tom improvises alot.
In wc2 at least everything isn't spelled out for you. On another note, no matter how many other cap ships (friendly) there were in wc3&4, the universe didn't really seem to breathe. In wc2 you were often escorting ships and convoys that were part of other operations. It really felt like there were a lot of things happening and things going on that didn't rely you to fly a mission.
And if you haven't played wc2, do your self a favour and find the deluxe ed. cd on ebay (or something). You have no basis for commenting of this if you've only played 3,4. ( which are still great games) Keep an open mind... and pay attention to all of the story and cutscenes. It may take you a moment to get used to the gameplay's sprites but I'm sure you wont regret the experience.
You need to play SM2 then (although I agree about wc1 and sm1)
Quarto said:
Strange how two different fans can interpret the game in such different ways. I actually think WC4's gameplay was the best and most realistic. I enjoyed having to dodge those missiles as my life depended on it. It has some of the most exciting missions in the series. I also disagree that the story was awful. I never even thought of Tolwyn being the villain until I landed on Axius.